What do you think of JUST THE MILITARY?

[Tequila Zaire]

they are people that get paid to murder other people. fuck them. there's no good reason to join the military. everyone either joins it because of racism, peer/family/authority pressure, because they think it's an easy way to exploit the government and get paid to do nothing while the rest of us have to work at productive jobs and pay thier wages, or because they are sick bastards that like the idea of being able to shoot people.

Wow....just...wow. Talk about generalizations based on absolute ignorance and blind hatred.

[Tequila Zaire]

hmm....but do i get a prize?

Assorted smiley's and candy cane circa 1963.

[23*]

Congradulations...that's the stupidest shit I've read on this forum. More than some of Brightstar's posts. Maybe that's a bit harsh though.

As much as top brass would like to think their men are lean mean killing robatic machines...it's just not the case. I'm not going to go into a long rant on what a soldier has to go through or what they deal with in combat mainly because if you honestly feel what you said is the truth...then I'm not gonna make you see diffrently.

I will say this though. Go talk to Soldiers...past and present. They can clue you in on things better. Talk to vets of various wars and those serving today....they'll happily share their stories and maybe you'll learn something.

I know your not a fucking idiot so think of this as a personal attack and true we all have diffrent opinions about things...but in this case you're just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.

ok. here we go.
I think i explained myself a little better in the later posts.
To clarify: I do believe that soldiers are certainly people not robots.
I just get frustrated when i see "but they told me to do it" as an excuse for behaviour which compromises that person's moral beliefs. In this way i don't sympathise with people who take life without asking questions. I do believe that the majority of soldiers must do this because how else could they justify so many of their actions. But maybe as you say, i do need to talk to soldiers.

and I do believe that robotic behaviour is degenerate behaviour....

[adorn_shadow]

I just read a thing that there were a bunch of U.S army dudes that moved to canada to avoid going to iraq. Meh, I would never join the militaryFuck em, if we were all just one big happy country across the globe this world would be a great place.

[Tequila Zaire]

and I do believe that robotic behaviour is degenerate behaviour....

That kind of behaviour is not only found in the military though...you see it in corporations, street gangs, schools, etc.

Also "But they told me to do it" is no longer an excuse. It's a complicated issue in interpreting if an order is legal or not but it is dissected more than ever bot in and out of military courts. It's no longer a get out of jail free card. Basic Training now includes sections on it to prevent soldiers from falling into situations like that. It still occurs though and usually it begins with who's in charge....weak commander can bring down all underneath them. Howerver even then an individual is responsible for themselves and the basic understanding of what is legal and illegal in a military setting both in and out of combat.

None of that though is exclusive to the miltiary...you see sections of society where people have authority over others. The LAPD's huge corruption scandel was a testament to this along with the New Orleans Police Dept. of a decade or so back. Even companies like Enron...so it's really not the Military that has problems with this type of behaviour...it's very much a breakdown of authority and corruption by various means.

[Tequila Zaire]

I just read a thing that there were a bunch of U.S army dudes that moved to canada to avoid going to iraq. Meh, I would never join the militaryFuck em, if we were all just one big happy country across the globe this world would be a great place.

Actually it was overstated and made a big deal over when in reality it was the expected average. Many soldiers go awol even during peace time. What many forget is that the U.S. Army is not a drafted army at this stage...so as a result you get people who realize it's not for them or the they simply can't handle what is expected of them and run off...some to Canada...but many go to other countries. It's a serious offense though and one that can have some heavy consequences.

[Morning Glory]

haha. I love how anyone who doesn't support the will of the mjaority, in this case that the military is good, is irational and petty and hateful (unlike say, going to someone's country and killing people that are just doing the same thing as you, only they are the one's that are defending thier country from an invading army)
you say that my reasoning is bullshit. ok. well i'd like to know some other reasons behind joining the military besides the one's that I listed. I'd also like to know exactly what freedoms of mine are being protected by the military, and how they are going about doing that expressley.
so while I'm waiting for that, it's been suggested that I go talk to a soldier and ask him how he feels about it. I'll do that next time I see one. and if you get the chance why don't you go to an Iraqi graveyard and talk to the family members of 10,000+ non-combatant civilians that were killed by those soldiers, and ask them if that's their idea of liberation.

[cheinara wraithwalker]

haha. I love how anyone who doesn't support the will of the mjaority, in this case that the military is good, is irational and petty and hateful (unlike say, going to someone's country and killing people that are just doing the same thing as you, only they are the one's that are defending thier country from an invading army)
you say that my reasoning is bullshit. ok. well i'd like to know some other reasons behind joining the military besides the one's that I listed. I'd also like to know exactly what freedoms of mine are being protected by the military, and how they are going about doing that expressley.
so while I'm waiting for that, it's been suggested that I go talk to a soldier and ask him how he feels about it. I'll do that next time I see one. and if you get the chance why don't you go to an Iraqi graveyard and talk to the family members of 10,000+ non-combatant civilians that were killed by those soldiers, and ask them if that's their idea of liberation.

I'm neither irrational, petty, or hateful. Like I said before, my fiance joined to learn more about how to work on the technical side of planes.

[Tequila Zaire]

haha. I love how anyone who doesn't support the will of the mjaority, in this case that the military is good, is irational and petty and hateful .

Leave the victimization charges for those who deserve it...you're view on the Iraq war is not what's getting charged as bullshit..it's your statement that the only people who join the military do so cause their racists, or out of peer pressure and some need to kill...that's bullshit in a pure form that results for total hate for something you've either condmened based on outside factors like the current war...or in the way I see it...something you would have condemened no matter what.

Majority view has zero to do with this...your statement was a petty attack that shows you know ZERO about what you're tying to critique. It's like that angy hippy mentality...uses the victioms as a screen for ones own bile to be spewed.

if you get the chance why don't you go to an Iraqi graveyard and talk to the family members of 10,000+ non-combatant civilians that were killed by those soldiers, and ask them if that's their idea of liberation

Now that's a cheap shot to get out of ctitiques against your misguided views...typical too...use those who did suffer and generalize them too. It may shock you to know that not all those familes would blame the soldiers...some *gasp* would blame the events that unfolded that like many...were out of their control. It's not a black and white issue when a civilian dies in war...it's an expected result and those who survive choose their means of how to deal with it and where to lay the blame. Don't use them to defent your fucked up reasoning...it's sick.

[Tequila Zaire]

I'm neither irrational, petty, or hateful. Like I said before, my fiance joined to learn more about how to work on the technical side of planes.

Same with a cousin of mine who joined to learn about assorted communications systems. Other friends joined for aviation, mechanics, engeneeing, and personal reasons like wanting to build up confidence.

None of them joined up to be "the first on their block with a confirmed kill."

Those in combat now do so not for god, country, or freedom...but to make sure their friends get home alive. Any soldier will tell you that in the thick of combat you fight for your friends...brothers at that point really... not ideals.

To toally dismiss that is to dismiss the humanity and challenges a soldier faces...

[BrightStar]

Flerbdegarfen!**

[cheinara wraithwalker]

Those in combat now do so not for god, country, or freedom...but to make sure their friends get home alive. Any soldier will tell you that in the thick of combat you fight for your friends...brothers at that point really... not ideals.

I can't remember what war it was in...I think it was WWII...but at one point, the enemy was screaming things like, "I killed your family, your mother was a good lover before I killed her, I hope your kid loves hell" and stuff like that...but didn't understand why it didn't affect the other side.

Truth is, and I've heard this from several people, you do miss home...but home doesn't matter right then. It's staying alive that matters, and keeping your men alive, men that became your family while fighting next to them.

[Tequila Zaire]

I can't remember what war it was in...I think it was WWII...but at one point, the enemy was screaming things like, "I killed your family, your mother was a good lover before I killed her, I hope your kid loves hell" and stuff like that...but didn't understand why it didn't affect the other side.

A lot of wars have had elements of one side saying that to another...it's part of the psychological aspect of it. Unfortunately it can work too good at times and make it impossible for one side to surrender in a given battle or situation. The japanese had many of their people beliveing allied soldiers were going to eat their children...some civilians bought into it enough that as allied soldiers advanced they jumped off cliffs. Factor in the genuine anger that builds when one side kills those you love...and such words, saying, and actions do pop up...when one side dehumanizes another bad enough it's very difficult to see their civilians as human anymore. In every major war both sides are quilty of such actions.

[cheinara wraithwalker]

A lot of wars have had elements of one side saying that to another...it's part of the psychological aspect of it. Unfortunately it can work too good at times and make it impossible for one side to surrender in a given battle or situation. The japanese had many of their people beliveing allied soldiers were going to eat their children...some civilians bought into it enough that as allied soldiers advanced they jumped off cliffs. Factor in the genuine anger that builds when one side kills those you love...and such words, saying, and actions do pop up...when one side dehumanizes another bad enough it's very difficult to see their civilians as human anymore. In every major war both sides are quilty of such actions.

It's sad that war even exists, but I see no way of having it not exist. It is weird to say this, but you almost have to have war to have peace. There will always be someone too greedy, there will always be civil wars, and so on.

[Morning Glory]

haha. when will you give up brother? do you even have a point? you just keep on trashing about how ridiculous you think my points are, and continuing to dodge and not even adress them, not to mention fail to back up point's that I challenged for further detail. the only sound thing i've heard you say is that it's "sick" that I think killing innocent people is wrong. which is a pretty fucked up thing to say. I'm going to use the example of people that suffered needlessly to prove that, yes. you can take that however you like it, just like those people can choose to blame whowever they want to. they can blame the system or they can blame the guy that shot the gun and dropped the bomb, either way it doesn't change the situation.

[Tequila Zaire]

It's sad that it exists in terms of the violence and destruction it brings but not sad in the fact that the conficts surrounding it are what forms our world. The fact remains it's conflict that drives us a humans...without it we wouldn't do much of anything. Every major advancement in humanity has been the result of being in an era of conflict...it's a part of what we are at the core really.

[Morning Glory]

It's sad that war even exists, but I see no way of having it not exist. It is weird to say this, but you almost have to have war to have peace. There will always be someone too greedy, there will always be civil wars, and so on.

i've said it countless times before, and i'll keep saying it over and over again: that mentality is the reason why war exists. how can you ever hope to have peace if you don't even see it as a possibility?
all it takes is a single person asking themself if they can do anything to achieve peace, and if so, if making the choice to avoid violence whenever possible and not support those that use it for unjust means could make the world a better place? if you can ask yourself that, and you think the answer might be yes, than you've allready got millions of people who think the same way and that's helping toward make it a reality.

[cheinara wraithwalker]

i've said it countless times before, and i'll keep saying it over and over again: that mentality is the reason why war exists. how can you ever hope to have peace if you don't even see it as a possibility?
all it takes is a single person asking themself if they can do anything to achieve peace, and if so, if making the choice to avoid violence whenever possible and not support those that use it for unjust means could make the world a better place? if you can ask yourself that, and you think the answer might be yes, than you've allready got millions of people who think the same way and that's helping toward make it a reality.

If you really think everyone's going to lay down their guns, then go for it. I'm all for peace. I'm not pushing anyone to fight anybody, but I'm not going to hold my breath for the bastards that use a handicapped child (strapped with a bomb to mislead forces) to lay down their guns because you think it'll make their world a better place. Humans are chaotic, and that's part of being chaotic.

[Tequila Zaire]

haha. when will you give up brother? do you even have a point? you just keep on trashing about how ridiculous you think my points are, and continuing to dodge and not even adress them, not to mention fail to back up point's that I challenged for further detail. the only sound thing i've heard you say is that it's "sick" that I think killing innocent people is wrong. which is a pretty fucked up thing to say. I'm going to use the example of people that suffered needlessly to prove that, yes. you can take that however you like it, just like those people can choose to blame whowever they want to. they can blame the system or they can blame the guy that shot the gun and dropped the bomb, either way it doesn't change the situation.

You ain't no brother mine so don't address me as one.

You have yet to make an actual valid point. You've also yet to even explain your own silly notion that people who join up are racists, peer pressured weaklings, and killers...so quite dodging it and playing the fool.

And I made it clear the only thing I thought was sick was you using real victims to protect your insane bullshit.

What points have you brought up to be challenged with further detail? Iraqi civilians that died? It's pretty well known that if a war is going on around you...there is a good chance those in the crossfire will die...so to go on long winded rants about how wrong that is...is futile. It happens in every major war...why would anyone think this would be diffrent? It's not something I lose sleep over. Not out of heartlessness but out of simply reality that in those situations it's a roll of the dice.

Also you can't prove that they suffered needlessly since the situation is no only still going on but the end result is far from being seen as a positive or a negative. Unless your dead in the middle of it all with a personal stake in it you're not gonna see it as it is...ever.

However none on that had to do with me trashing your ignorant as fuck assertians that military men are mainly racists, killers, and only joined up out of peer pressure. It's a silly as fuck statement to have made for the simple fact those of us who KNOW people in the military and have family serving see the various reasons why they join...your statement had zero to back up what you said in any form.

[Morning Glory]

what country are you from? it must not be america cuz I guess you've never heard people say things like " I'm gonna join the military so I can go kill some fucking ragheads" but I hear it all the time. that's racism. peer pressure, hm well for starters how about recruiters in every school trying to get kids to join up? and you got me on that last one, the military doesn't kill anyone. you're right, I just made that one up.

[cheinara wraithwalker]

what country are you from? it must not be america cuz I guess you've never heard people say things like " I'm gonna join the military so I can go kill some fucking ragheads" but I hear it all the time. that's racism. peer pressure, hm well for starters how about recruiters in every school trying to get kids to join up? and you got me on that last one, the military doesn't kill anyone. you're right, I just made that one up.

I've heard people say that before, but no one I know that's actually in the service are like that (the people that say that sort of thing are normally too much of a pussy to actually go in.)

You still haven't accounted for the fact that I personally know many military people that aren't racist, haven't killed a person in their entire life, and really don't succumb to peer pressure all that easily. They're people, just like everyone else.

I hate how you generalize so much.

[Morning Glory]

then please, by all means, give me some other reasons that I haven't listed. i've heard a lot of shit talking, but no one has done that yet. doesn't seem out of the question to me.

[Morning Glory]

oh by the way, I do know many people in the military. you assume that just because I don't support it, that I don't understand it. the fact is that unlike some people, i'm not going to compromise my morals out of personal preference. I've known people who's parents and grandparents were nazis, they might be great people, but that doesn't mean I have to like hitler on thier account.
so the question is if your loved ones weren't in the service, would you give a shit about it? some of you probibly would. other's, I'm not so sure.

[cheinara wraithwalker]

I've already told you why my fiance joined! He joined to learn more about what he loved, airplanes. He loves working on them, and joined so he could learn more about them. My friend Jay and Ryan joined because they wanted to get into better shape. My friend Charlie joined because he found himself at a bad point in life and wanted to make a turn for the better.

I've seen some dicks come out of the military, but I've met several good people too.

[Tequila Zaire]

what country are you from? it must not be america cuz I guess you've never heard people say things like " I'm gonna join the military so I can go kill some fucking ragheads" but I hear it all the time. that's racism. peer pressure, hm well for starters how about recruiters in every school trying to get kids to join up? and you got me on that last one, the military doesn't kill anyone. you're right, I just made that one up.

Yeah you did...

I've never heard anyone say they want to join up to kill ragheads so I dunno what part of the country you're living in cause the main reason ALL the people I know joined up for was college money and training. Of them only 3 where white. The rest were various minorities...ALL went to a recruiter willingly or took the experiences of their sublings and parents as a guide.

Recruiters have a job...get people to join...I was hounded by them from 17 to 25...like many others...and guess what? You don't have to join. They do their best to get you to join...just like a corporate headhunter, mormons, PTA, and girl scouts trying to sell cookies.

The U.S. is one of the few nations that even has recruiters since most nations REQUIRE you to join up.

[Morning Glory]

I've already told you why my fiance joined! He joined to learn more about what he loved, airplanes. He loves working on them, and joined so he could learn more about them. My friend Jay and Ryan joined because they wanted to get into better shape. My friend Charlie joined because he found himself at a bad point in life and wanted to make a turn for the better.

I've seen some dicks come out of the military, but I've met several good people too.

well they must have had other movtives for joining seeing as how you can do all those things WITHOUT having to be in the military.

[cheinara wraithwalker]

well they must have had other movtives for joining seeing as how you can do all those things WITHOUT having to be in the military.

Not if they don't have the money to do it with.

I'm going to quit arguing this and go to bed, seeing as how your skull will still be just as thick in the morning.

[Morning Glory]

yeah, you guys are right, I can't believe I thought the military wanted to hurt anyone. what was I thinking? they just wanna give out teddy bears and encourage people to pursue thier hobbies. all those planes tanks and bombs, they must not be real, that's just hippie bullshit, I need to stop reading books and listening to people with PHD's. I'm so glad you guys showed me the error of my ways, I'm going to go join up tommorrow so that I can get paid to go bowling, cuz that's what I really love to do, and that's what the army is all about.

[Tequila Zaire]

oh by the way, I do know many people in the military. you assume that just because I don't support it, that I don't understand it. the fact is that unlike some people, i'm not going to compromise my morals out of personal preference. I've known people who's parents and grandparents were nazis, they might be great people, but that doesn't mean I have to like hitler on thier account.
so the question is if your loved ones weren't in the service, would you give a shit about it? some of you probibly would. other's, I'm not so sure.

Given your statements from before and now...I don't assume you don't understand it...it's CLEAR you don't.

As far as not compromising your morals out of personal prefrence...well that says a lot right there. Compromise is key to any relationship..be it with your fellow man or ones own peace of mind. However being uncompromising to the point it blinds you about the complexities of a subject...in this case a soldier and whythey join...is far more self damging since it weakens whatever morality you think you hold.

Would I give a shit about the military if no one I knew was in it? Yes I would...I understand the important duties they perform and the reality of the world they fight and die in. They get their hands bloody in things many would not wish to deal with and preserve and protect far more than the ideals of their nation. No nation survivies with a strong military or allies with a strong military and no grand ideals grow without something to protect them. Less idealized though is the reality that at some level force and violence need be applied and the military is there to respond to such situations as needed.

[Tequila Zaire]

what was I thinking?

When you figure that out clue us all in.

As far as the military not wanting to hurt anyone...deadly force is applied when needed. That's the point of a military. They are not the Peace Corps...they are professionals at controled violence. Dismiss em if you wish as cold hearted killers but they are not that simple to define or catogarize.

[Tequila Zaire]

well they must have had other movtives for joining seeing as how you can do all those things WITHOUT having to be in the military.

Unture...for many the Military is their only realistic way out of the sitiation they are be it financially or socially and the military is one of the few places that will pay your way through college without one having to get a scolorship while in H.S.

The Military has traditionally been made up of middle and lower income men and women who often come from areas where opportunity is scare or non-existent. To rise above it or persue something better the Military has proven their way up. It does however come at a great cost that many are willing to pay. Some may argue the price is too high but untill things change for people from these areas of society...the Military will continue to be the place many seek a future with. The G.I. Bill and assorted training given is a hell of an incentive given the only thing you gotta do is sign up and pass basic...

[One Eyed Cat]

I guess my only point in this thread is that you sometimes have to separate soldiers from a given mission they are asked to perform. I think, ultimately, they are people who are placed in difficult situations and they fight only to keep their friends and themselves alive (as a Soldier here aptly reminded us) Politics and principles are very important for a lot of us here. I think we have to temper it with some empathy for those who may have seen things differently or joined as the one real opportunity they had to better themselves. Many soldiers now are actually immigrants who had precious little opportunity to escape oppression at home. They joined the Military for an opportunity to become citizens. Some people may look at this situation and wonder why the burden falls on the poor. I honestly think you have to go past the politics to sense who these people are, regardless of how abysmal you may see some of their actions. I seek to convince noone of the wisdom of the war in Iraq. My own experience with human beings tells me that for every viewpoint I hold, 2 others may be valid in a different context. It's hell there, folks, let's just keep that in mind as we sit here typing.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

no, I understand that it's more complex than just some guys going out and indiscriminiatly shooting people. what you don't seem to comprehend is the complexity beyond the whole cowboy hero that jumps on the horse and saves the day as the image of our military. you tell me that you know so many minorites that joined the military, you might want to ask why the ceo's and the senators aren't out there fighting for thier share, is it because it's less important to protect than a mimimum wage job? our president is live from his mansion saying that all the americans that died today is allright, cuz "we will prevail."

[One Eyed Cat]

no, I understand that it's more complex than just some guys going out and indiscriminiatly shooting people. what you don't seem to comprehend is the complexity beyond the whole cowboy hero that jumps on the horse and saves the day as the image of our military. you tell me that you know so many minorites that joined the military, you might want to ask why the ceo's and the senators aren't out there fighting for thier share, is it because it's less important to protect than a mimimum wage job? our president is live from his mansion saying that all the americans that died today is allright, cuz "we will prevail."

I don't see them as Cowboy heros, just people in a situation I cannot truly comprehend. I agree that it is bullshit for the lower classes to bear the burden, that was a major part of my point. My father originally saw Vietnam thru the lens of socioeconomic privilige. He need not have gone. He would later see the war as a mistake of epic proportion. I see them not as "good" or "evil" just people trying to survive hell.

OEC

[Tequila Zaire]

no, I understand that it's more complex than just some guys going out and indiscriminiatly shooting people. what you don't seem to comprehend is the complexity beyond the whole cowboy hero that jumps on the horse and saves the day as the image of our military. you tell me that you know so many minorites that joined the military, you might want to ask why the ceo's and the senators aren't out there fighting for thier share, is it because it's less important to protect than a mimimum wage job? our president is live from his mansion saying that all the americans that died today is allright, cuz "we will prevail."

You sure as hell didn't sound that way with your first statements. As far as the cowboy mentality goes ...are you for real? How thick headed and thin eyed are you?

Anyone raised in the post Nam years does not buy into the old skool mentality of the glorious military. They buy into the the reality of it...the dangers and opportunities of it. Like many I was taught by men and women who did their time in Nam...had an uncle who did his tour and from them I learned enough about the non glorious angle of it all that my boyhood image of it died quick. Plus even if you did not have a DIRECT contact with it the general attitudes of war (even in film) has pushed how unglamourous and intimate the brutality of warfare is....don't get so high and mighty that you seem to know some absolute truth on the subject cause you're on thin ice in all this as is. YOU are the ones who does not seem to grasp the complexities of warfare and the military on the realistic and modern levels.

You are aware many senators and reps have either served in or are vets right? And it's silly as fuck to say they should be in combat today when you have men who are their peers already holding those positions...you are aware the military has a chain of command right? More so most are vets of Vietnam and the cold war in general. I'm gonna have to side with them in that they know a bit more about their jobs and what needs done than you.

What is it you want a roman emperor leading his men into battle? If you're gonna argue all this keep one foot in reality will you cause your sounding like a coffee shop revolutionary who has a world view that is focused only on being against anything and everything.

[Morning Glory]

You ain't no brother mine so don't address me as one.

well either big tubby man on the cloud created us from his own image and one spare rib for our momma and daddy, or else some atomic particles floated down from space and made little squiggly things which grew fins and legs and walked up on the beach to eventually become our hairy ass ancestors...
why don't you pull up a calculator and mutliply each member of your liniage squared ( it takes two to tango) and take it back about three thousand years and you'll come up with a number about 4 times larger than the possible human population of the earth...
you is my brotha, whether you likes it or not.

[Morning Glory]

your sounding like a coffee shop revolutionary who has a world view that is focused only on being against anything and everything.

I don't drink coffee. it's imperialistic.

[Tequila Zaire]

you is my brotha, whether you likes it or not.

No, it's pretty clear we're not.

Science, Religion, and Blood have zero say in it.

[Tequila Zaire]

I don't drink coffee. it's imperialistic.

I think tea would be more imperialistic....coffee (the good kind anyhow) tends to come from nations where the pale skin bastards of history have either tried to exploit into oblivion, enslaved, or simply taken over.

Coffee is for the people!

[Morning Glory]

now who's denying the truth?