Amelia G Rocks Scientologist Socks (goofy sign maker)

[The Newswire]

Los Angeles can be a difficult city to make deep connections with others in. I know literally hundreds of people who I genuinely like and enjoy in Southern California, but I can't say most of them know me particularly in-depth or vice-versa. Sometimes I find it difficult to escape the feeling that every...

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[karyn]

[Mindgames]

Of all the lawyer-saturated self-protecting groups of people out there, if you had to pick one not to satirize, it'd be this one. You can laugh at the NRA. You can write in-depth situation comedy about the KKK, and you can even draw cute leprechaun hats on the Irish, without worrying about the fire insurance on your house.

... but I wouldn't want to be the guy running that website right now...

[athenahollow]

Back a few months ago, I was running a free image host.
I received an email about 3 days after we had decided to let it go under peacefully (due to inactivity on it) from Dr. Oliver Schaper about a picture someone had hosted on my server. It was a satirical pic that used his face. He seriously sent me a DMCA about the goddamn thing and then threatened to sue when I told him that I wouldn't remove the picture due to the my belief in Fair Use laws, as it was clearly a parody picture.

[Amelia G]

Originally Posted by athenahollow

Back a few months ago, I was running a free image host.
I received an email about 3 days after we had decided to let it go under peacefully (due to inactivity on it) from Dr. Oliver Schaper about a picture someone had hosted on my server. It was a satirical pic that used his face. He seriously sent me a DMCA about the goddamn thing and then threatened to sue when I told him that I wouldn't remove the picture due to the my belief in Fair Use laws, as it was clearly a parody picture.

What Fair Use law would that fall under? I mean, I sometimes let stuff like that slide because there is only so much battle anyone can stand and ideally one doesn't take everything too seriously. But he is not particularly a public figure and presumably whoever made the satirical pic didn't get a license to the photo from the photographer.

[jonny.illuminati]

i have many issues with scientology... but i wouldn't want to be that site either... scientology is the only group that fought the IRS.... and WON...

winning against the IRS makes them scary...

[athenahollow]

Originally Posted by Amelia G

What Fair Use law would that fall under? I mean, I sometimes let stuff like that slide because there is only so much battle anyone can stand and ideally one doesn't take everything too seriously. But he is not particularly a public figure and presumably whoever made the satirical pic didn't get a license to the photo from the photographer.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied;

If I remember correctly, the picture was taken in a public place and used in several news outlets, which is where the person who created the parody got it from.

But this was after him being all over the news, etc. So I would definitely have considered him a public figure.

[One Eyed Cat]

[babysinead]

I find your generalization of AA and NA members a bit insulting and wildly untrue.

[Amelia G]

Originally Posted by babysinead

I find your generalization of AA and NA members a bit insulting and wildly untrue.

There is no question that AA and NA have helped many people, but, at least in Los Angeles, a lot of the folks who do AA and NA have the issues described. Maybe it is different in New York. I think these were the assertions I made in brief:

#1 AA/NA often leaves really beautiful souls with amazing artistic accomplishments with the notion that the whole narrative of their lives is just about a struggle with addiction.

#2 AA/NA folks often want credit for both being extra wild and extra not wild at the same time and sometimes seem almost competitive on the point.

#3 Most addicts relapse at least occasionally. (I do have a social science degree, so I base this thought on a combination of scientific studies which have been done and anecdotal evidence of my own friends and acquaintances.)

Which of those is wrong in what way? Was there something else in specific I said which you felt was inaccurate? I'm always willing to process new information and possibly have my mind changed.

[nathanmbailey]

My biggest problem with AA/NA is that one, they say you have to give yourself up to a higher power. They don't say what it is, but you have to recognize that there's something. This strikes me odd because when I had to attend a couple AA meetings after a DUI, they said a prayer. I can't remember what the name of it is, simply because the last time I went to a Christian mass I was being dragged kicking and screaming by my mom when I was like 6. But I do know it was a Christian prayer.

The other thing is, the groups are like an excuse to hide from confronting the issue. Instead of facing the addiction (this goes more for AA but works with certain drugs for NA though there are those that I don't think should ever be done and cannot really be done recreationally) the individual, for the most part, completely avoids it. That makes you weaker in my mind and is what I think is one of the biggest causes of relapses.

[Wickedanima]

I think behavioral therapy is almost as bad as AA/NA however. A little bit of self-coddling initially is utterly acceptable, but making your whole life about your mental illness/addiction and expecting everyone to cater to it is silly... and doesn't speak of innate issues being resolved.

Is it me, or does it seem like strength of character has become utterly 'old hat' ?

[soma_stardust]

[Dusk]

I could do this all day xD

[Amelia G]

Originally Posted by nathanmbailey

My biggest problem with AA/NA is that one, they say you have to give yourself up to a higher power. They don't say what it is, but you have to recognize that there's something. This strikes me odd because when I had to attend a couple AA meetings after a DUI, they said a prayer. I can't remember what the name of it is, simply because the last time I went to a Christian mass I was being dragged kicking and screaming by my mom when I was like 6. But I do know it was a Christian prayer.

The other thing is, the groups are like an excuse to hide from confronting the issue. Instead of facing the addiction (this goes more for AA but works with certain drugs for NA though there are those that I don't think should ever be done and cannot really be done recreationally) the individual, for the most part, completely avoids it. That makes you weaker in my mind and is what I think is one of the biggest causes of relapses.

Best sign made yet!

In my day-to-day life, I don't judge anybody by the substances they choose to ingest. I believe strongly that what any person puts in his or her body should be a matter of an individual right to choose.

I would never avoid friendship with someone because they do or do not do a particular substance. I will, however, expect someone to take responsibility for their own actions. If someone does something awful, then I consider the doing something awful the problem, not that they were doing a lot of _____ at the time.

[ForrestBlack]

[ForrestBlack]

What's the NA stance on taking a chill pill?

[nathanmbailey]

I don't discriminate against people for whatever substance they may or may not abuse. Hell, most of the time I'd be right there with them doing it, except in some of the same examples you gave, such as heroin. But that's because I've seen what it does to people in my life. It's not even the needle thing, hell I've stuck myself with needles before, though it's usually because I have to get a blood test or am donating it and they can't find the vein under the tattoos.

[Amelia G]

Originally Posted by nathanmbailey

I don't discriminate against people for whatever substance they may or may not abuse. Hell, most of the time I'd be right there with them doing it, except in some of the same examples you gave, such as heroin. But that's because I've seen what it does to people in my life. It's not even the needle thing, hell I've stuck myself with needles before, though it's usually because I have to get a blood test or am donating it and they can't find the vein under the tattoos.

WTF kind of nurse doesn't know how to find a vein on inked flesh in 2009? You are a manly man for being able to do that to yourself. I hate having blood drawn. Not because it hurts, because it really does not hurt much, but because my body just viscerally objects to the removal. It is like every fiber of my anatomy is like, "hey, quit it, that's mine."

I know a good number of people who have done heroin to no ill effect and a good number who have had it eff up their lives for years. You can snort it, ya know.

[nathanmbailey]

They weren't nurses, they were Army medics. They scare me.

[Raza]

Originally Posted by Mindgames

Of all the lawyer-saturated self-protecting groups of people out there, if you had to pick one not to satirize, it'd be this one. You can laugh at the NRA. You can write in-depth situation comedy about the KKK, and you can even draw cute leprechaun hats on the Irish, without worrying about the fire insurance on your house.

... but I wouldn't want to be the guy running that website right now...

CoS has learned the hard way that their sphere of intimidating influence runs very thin on the internets. There's a lot of stuff mocking scientology online, and the combination of quantity, relative anonymity and a lack of centralised leadership renders their usual counteroffenses mostly ineffective.

[bohoki]

i wonder what would happen if someon started a church of the reformed scientologists

there are different christian,muslim,buddist,jewish churches

how can they claim to be a religion and be the only scientology group

[nathanmbailey]

Originally Posted by bohoki

i wonder what would happen if someon started a church of the reformed scientologists

there are different christian,muslim,buddist,jewish churches

how can they claim to be a religion and be the only scientology group

Thing is, those religions are like really, really old. But when they first started, they each had only one form. It wasn't until someone decided they didn't like the way it was being ran or one part of the belief system and divides off. Eventually there will probably be different sects of Scientology, but hopefully someone will eventually understand how stupid it is and the whole thing will go away.

[Amelia G]

Originally Posted by nathanmbailey

Thing is, those religions are like really, really old. But when they first started, they each had only one form. It wasn't until someone decided they didn't like the way it was being ran or one part of the belief system and divides off. Eventually there will probably be different sects of Scientology, but hopefully someone will eventually understand how stupid it is and the whole thing will go away.

What makes Scientology stupider than those other older religions? I always hear people saying Scientology is bad in this tonal way, like everyone is supposed to just agree, but nobody can ever give me bullet points on their personal objections to Scientology. At best, someone will generally post a link to a site they apparently have not personally digested the data from.

Saying that Scientologists are bad because they sue people is just ignorant. Laws are there to protect people. Do some people abuse the legal system? Sure. But it is there to protect people, so that citizens can't do inappropraite horrible things to one another.

Lastly, I'm sure someone who believed in Scientology, but with a couple of differences of opinion, such as worshipping Jonathan Rhys Myers, could legitimately start another sect of Scientology. Some random anonymous pussy in a V mask, who is just starting problems, is not going to be able to do it and there is no reason they should be able to. Is there?

[Bikerpunk]

Amelia: First off, it's not a religion. It's decided to call itself that in response to the government threatening them because they were selling psychiatry without a license. So they decided hey, the Christians will slaver if it looks like religion is being impeded, and rebranded themselves priests.

Second of all, it maintains a policy of "Fair Game" in which anyone who disagrees with it can and should be attacked, intimidated, or hurt. Sued, injured however and wherever possible.

Third of all, they charge MONEY for their services. Please explain to me another religion that demands an investment of hundreds of thousands of dollars and demands that you bring in others, a la Amway.

[Amelia G]

Originally Posted by Bikerpunk

Amelia: First off, it's not a religion. It's decided to call itself that in response to the government threatening them because they were selling psychiatry without a license. So they decided hey, the Christians will slaver if it looks like religion is being impeded, and rebranded themselves priests.

Second of all, it maintains a policy of "Fair Game" in which anyone who disagrees with it can and should be attacked, intimidated, or hurt. Sued, injured however and wherever possible.

Third of all, they charge MONEY for their services. Please explain to me another religion that demands an investment of hundreds of thousands of dollars and demands that you bring in others, a la Amway.

Uhm, I assume you are familiar with the word tithing. Hint: It doesn't come from civil tax practices. Unless you are maybe a homeless person, just try to find a church or temple which will minister to you in any significant way without putting the touch on you.

I assume you are also familiar with the concept of missionaries. Hint: It is their job to bring in others. Most religions actively recruit. In fact, I'm pretty sure the only religion mentioned in this thread which does not try to bring in others is Judaism.

I kind of think separation of church and state should mean the government does not get to define religion. So, as an individual, in what way do you think Scientology is less a religion than other religions? Life coaches do much the same sort of thing shrinks do and I don't notice anyone freaking out about them.

Can you give me three examples of people who have been physically injured for merely disagreeing with Scientology?

[Bikerpunk]

Uhm, I assume you are familiar with the word tithing. Hint: It doesn't come from civil tax practices. Unless you are maybe a homeless person, just try to find a church or temple which will minister to you in any significant way without putting the touch on you.

10% of what you have, versus thousands of dollars you may not actually own.

I assume you are also familiar with the concept of missionaries. Hint: It is their job to bring in others. Most religions actively recruit. In fact, I'm pretty sure the only religion mentioned in this thread which does not try to bring in others is Judaism.

Hinduism is also a non-prophet religion.

I kind of think separation of church and state should mean the government does not get to define religion. So, as an individual, in what way do you think Scientology is less a religion than other religions? Life coaches do much the same sort of thing shrinks do and I don't notice anyone freaking out about them.

L. Ron INVENTED it. Totally made the shit up.

Can you give me three examples of people who have been physically injured for merely disagreeing with Scientology?

I'll find some, but hey: http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

[Amelia G]

Originally Posted by Bikerpunk

10% of what you have, versus thousands of dollars you may not actually own.



Hinduism is also a non-prophet religion.



L. Ron INVENTED it. Totally made the shit up.




I'll find some, but hey: http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

I always hear people saying Scientology is bad in this tonal way, like everyone is supposed to just agree, but nobody can ever give me bullet points on their personal objections to Scientology. At best, someone will generally post a link to a site they apparently have not personally digested the data from. I'm not going to click that link. If you can't explain or summarize it, then it must not be very compelling.

Some people form their social lives around their church or temple or similar social structure. Have you ever bought a girl a drink which cost a bit more than you could really afford? Many people endow their place of worship or tithe to their place of worship or pay for classes at their place of worship etc. in excess of what a nonbeliever would feel they could afford. Some of it may be seeking indulgences, some divine intervention, some peace, some righteousness, some macking in front of the other members. But I don't presume to think I know what somebody else can afford for that sort of thing. Some people spend so much on their shrink that they have trouble making rent. But it is hard to budget for one's soul and it is all in some way the pursuit of that.

I've heard pretty much all religions called made-up by people who didn't like what they were. Some people view religious teachings as parable and some as actual occurance. Some people believe that religion comes from divine powers and some believe it is man-made. If you believe that all religion you accept as valid is handed down from a specific deity, you are entitled to your viewpoint, I have no evidence to the contrary, and I will respectfully agree to discontinue this discussion.

[Bikerpunk]

Okay, here's the history of Scientology, in a nutshell.

L. Ron Hubbard sells Dianetics as a therapy. E-meters are medical devices.

The AMA takes L.Ron to task, because he isn't a medical doctor.

Suddenly, it becomes the CHURCH of Scientology, and E-meters become religious artifacts.

And the lawsuits have to stop. Convenient, huh?

As for the site, quite simply - people found dead in circumstances that weren't typical for them, including some of Hubbard's own relatives.

[Amelia G]

Originally Posted by Bikerpunk

Okay, here's the history of Scientology, in a nutshell.

L. Ron Hubbard sells Dianetics as a therapy. E-meters are medical devices.

The AMA takes L.Ron to task, because he isn't a medical doctor.

Suddenly, it becomes the CHURCH of Scientology, and E-meters become religious artifacts.

And the lawsuits have to stop. Convenient, huh?

As for the site, quite simply - people found dead in circumstances that weren't typical for them, including some of Hubbard's own relatives.

People being killed as part of founding or shaping a religion is part of just about all religious histories. I mean, unless you are saying all sects of Protestant are not actually religions because some people got killed, possibly for money, some time in the past, then that argument just doesn't single out Scientology.

[Rockwulf]

[Amelia G]

Originally Posted by Rockwulf

The only puns I like are sex puns, but this really raises the bar. Awesome sign!

[Rockwulf]

*takes bow*

[Bikerpunk]

Originally Posted by Amelia G

People being killed as part of founding or shaping a religion is part of just about all religious histories. I mean, unless you are saying all sects of Protestant are not actually religions because some people got killed, possibly for money, some time in the past, then that argument just doesn't single out Scientology.

The difference is, we're supposedly more humane in this century, no?

[Mr Karl]

Originally Posted by Bikerpunk

The difference is, we're supposedly more humane in this century, no?

where'd you hear that?

[Amelia G]

Originally Posted by Mr Karl

where'd you hear that?

Good question. I've tried not to watch the news news since the election, but, unless there have been some new developments since then . . .

[Bikerpunk]

Okay look.

The whole virgin birth thing, came about 2,000 years ago when people didn't have much education and believed in superstition.

The whole "reality fell out of the vagina of a cow" thing - thousands of years before that.

"This planet used to be called Teegeeack and Galactic Overlord Xenu blew up some alien beings in volcanoes with H-bombs, people he brought there in DC-8s?" <--- in the late 50s or so???!?!!?!?!?!?!/

[Amelia G]

Originally Posted by Bikerpunk

Okay look.

The whole virgin birth thing, came about 2,000 years ago when people didn't have much education and believed in superstition.

The whole "reality fell out of the vagina of a cow" thing - thousands of years before that.

"This planet used to be called Teegeeack and Galactic Overlord Xenu blew up some alien beings in volcanoes with H-bombs, people he brought there in DC-8s?" <--- in the late 50s or so???!?!!?!?!?!?!/

So, much like certain types of hard liquor or cheese, a belief system must ferment for a certain length of time before it is considered aged sufficiently to be legitimately labeled religion?

I mean, I don't personally enjoy any system which tells me I have to believe everything of a certain sort to be a proper person. It is why I don't like the people who tell me I'm obligated to disapprove of Scientology without being able to explain why. I'm personally into learning as much as possible about as many belief systems as possible and forming one's own individually developed view of the world, but I can accept that some people feel, to count as a religion, something has to be X years old.

[Bikerpunk]

Here's the other essential difference, Amelia:

I can go into ANY house of worship of a REAL religion, ask what they believe, and be told/taught whatever. The Hindus will teach me Sanskrit. The Muslims will teach me Arabic. There are those who will GLADLY ***GIVE*** me a public domain document that specifies the beliefs.

It is NOT a restricted copyrighted document I have to pay money to the authors for.

The day I go into a Christian church and am told that I'm welcome to learn about what the commandments are, but to learn the first one costs $1,000, the second $2,500. The third and fourth are $3,000 each. The Fifth is $10,000. The sixth and seventh will KILL ME if I read them before I am ready, but when I am, $25,000. By that point I will never grow old or sick. The eighth is $40,000. The nineth is $100,000 and the tenth is $500,000 but by that point I will have mastered space and time.... I'll say fuck them, too.

And my point was, people believed in virgin births back when science was unsophisticated and most people couldn't read. The bar is higher now, and the bullshit detectors should be working far better.

[Rockwulf]

Well put BP.