Burning Man 2009

[Amelia G]

Wanting to connect with artists, and instead getting hammered by people obsessed with the financial figures, only to later accuse her of being obsessed with money?

Burning Man wants what is a lot of money from artists and, in return, rather than giving to the artists, they take more.

When you respond to people who are talking about art, philosophy, and freedom with talk about money, that just confirms that Burning Man is much more about the money than the rhetoric.

How was she to know that her simple plea to connect with artists on a philosophically constructive level would consequently be trampled by people who claim seniority with no real regard for others’ artistic processes?

You have been giving every opportunity to support your view on an even playing field. The only place seniority is an issue is that most of us would believe that a Burning Man post, from someone senior who had made a few thousand posts on other topics, was not spam. When promotion of an event is someone's first post, then people wonder if it is spam. Other than that, what do you think seniority has to do with anything? Many forums ban people for disagreeing, while I encourage people to voice and discuss whatever they might think.

It has become apparent that it is preference not to acknowledge that I have made many relevant points, (that I have backed up).

Really? What points do you feel you have made which have been ignored? I know I feel like you have avoided responding to most questions posed to you and I have attempted to point out the most important ones you skipped.

It doesn’t seem like there is desire to even try to comprehend my points. But I can see how it is much easier to ignore my ideas and disregard them as insufficient, and then pound on your chest with a highly controversial, mudslinging, judgment-based remark of distraction that has nothing to do with the real issues I brought up in the first place: ART, PHILOSOPHY, SELF-EXPRESSION. . . and ultimately shifts the whole median of topic(s) to something that draws attention away from them, and focuses on all negative aspects.

Who has slung mud at you? How are you defining mudslinging? When others tried to respond to you on the topics of art, philosophy, personal expression, and freedom, you tried to change the subject to money. Please scroll up and re-read if you do not recall how the conversation went.

I get the impression that there are deliberate attempts to try and run people off with sharp, coarse tactics that are intended to be intimidating; it can be empowering when someone can’t back themselves up and ends up bolting- just another person you know you’re smarter than.

Nobody should be trying to run anyone off. One person in this whole thread said maybe you should leave and both I and another board member told them that was not reasonable. You do not see the person who posted that whining about how it is so mean that everyone else is smarter than he is or some such nonsense. If you are losing this debate, I'm guessing it is because you are wrong and not because, poor you, you are not smart enough.

Let me try to clarify. All my work is personal, but I want it to be commercial. For me, ‘personal’ entails self-compensation, ‘the feeling I get when I accomplished a piece;‘ “commercial” entails being compensated by others: ‘the feeling I get when others accept/enjoy/understand (to an extent) my work and want to give me something for it.’ I wouldn’t necessarily say I have a commercial outlook, I just have practical, willful life tactics that I try to substantiate into -my definition of- beneficial investments financial or abstract or artful. As a human, I am inclined to view financial matters as a source of survival, especially since we live in a world fraught with inescapable, materialistic commercialism. It’s fucking everywhere! Name one webpage you’ve seen that doesn’t have an add of some sort nailed to it!

If you believe all web pages are inherently commercial, then how does Burning Man permit all the big corporate web pages to show photographs shot at Burning Man, while denying indie artists the same right on the theory that their work is somehow commercial?

Fiscal obsession is not my mark. In this world, money and survival are hand in hand. I do not care to obsess over that which has destroyed this world with greed, falsification, devaluation of life, and a created a fabricated slum of this world -money. Yet we all need it to survive. “The Almighty Dollar,” without it we think we cannot flourish, succeed, live . . . as grim as it sounds, it is all too true, too true to ignore. *You can’t honestly think that this whole world is not obsessed with money, can you? You’re obviously obsessed, at least that‘s the impression from your previous replies. Since I do not have a trust fund, I must be concerned with money, it is, just like voting, an adult responsibility.

If you are so broke, why would you spend so much to go craft some place uncomfortable which will take away your rights as an artist, when you could put those same resources to crafting at home?

And, to answer your question, no, I do not believe the whole world is obsessed with money. My core objection to Burning Man is that it appears that event is set up to prey on those who want to create and do not think of the price tag first. I am one of those people, so I feel that the existence of Burning Man is a glaring expression that I am a chump for ever making art I make for the joy of creation and sharing.

I can understand the concerns of hypocrisy that follow something like Burning Man, and
I can see why it may be counterproductive to some that Burning Man has allegedly “raped the heart” of artists that give all they’ve got to creating something that will be used to make more money for people who don’t need it, and on top of it throw in bunk legalities that they themselves mock, but at the same time it has kick-started a generation of artists that are content to do this. If they feel they can acquire something from attending BM (non-financially) then that would in fact make them the opposite of money-obsessed. It shows that they are able to disregard money. And thus, the whole “gift economy” could be a valid attempt to stress this point. Many artists that attend BM work for BM, so this means they ARE getting paid. Luckily BM has enough gull to pay it’s employees, huh?

Who are you quoting with your quotation marks?

The fact that Burning Man has "kickstarted a generation of artists that are content to do this" is exactly the problem. They are disempowering a large segment of a whole generation of people who would have brought art and beauty and flamboyance to the world all the time, but now just put all of that energy into their yearly time on the playa. People who are not artists need what artists create, but there is pressure against being an artist. Normally, the internal pressure to create overpowers societal pressure, but Burning Man releases this pressure in the middle of the desert where it can not impact society.

This is the first you mentioned employees. What positions are you saying Burning Man is good for paying? People who post about it on forums? What is the going rate for that these days?

[Amelia G]

If you really disagree with the legalities involved with BM, and truly think they are taking advantage of everyone who attends, take a look at any corporation. Why not try and start your own festival and see if you can manage to provide all the proper services and follow all the government rules without attempting to make a profit of some sort, to fund all the necessary expenditures? Would you do all of this for free? I think not. Try this and see if you are able to keep the media away when 60,000 people attend.

I have done many things at a personal financial loss, even when I knew I would take a loss, because I felt they were important as an artist and a member of my community. What you are saying makes me feel completely invalidated for having approached so many things without a profit motive. Why are you so mercenary that you do not believe in charity or art for art or art for community at all? Artists are not unicorns. Is this something Burning Man teaches?

Why would anyone want to keep the media away, unless they were doing something so wrong it could not stand up to public scrutiny? Generally, the only people who want to keep the media away from what they are doing are despots and criminals. That is why freedom of the press is so core to freedom in any society, macro or micro.

Since you are all so inclined to speak about money, let me address these standpoints. I find it humorous that there are so many negative opinions of something that is essentially an economy-boosting, creative-minded, art-producing, free-thinking organization that is actually one of the most positive and successful businesses in this country, meanwhile there are companies out stealing taxpayers’ money, spending money they don’t have on foreign oil to run vehicles we can’t afford, money, money money. Maybe if this society wasn’t run by greedy contradictory hounds, I could actually relax on a mountain-top without having to worry about paying all my bills. But maybe you can see how easy it is to get caught up in the degeneration called money.

Who is saying anything about relaxing on a mountain top? I have taken the funds from many stifling day jobs to pay for art projects. I am glad I did not take limited funds for art supplies and squander them on making someone else millions of dollars richer for snarfing all rights to my work, including my own right to use it.

Then there’s the people out there sitting around, feeding into the scoundrels, people who don’t know how to bring purpose into their lives, so they: pay cable companies to be brainwashed through television, invest in mass-produced commercial “rebellious” music that steals money from “fans”, and ultimately makes people think dreadfully alike by raping independence, spend money on “economy-boosting” holiday attire, and products that just end up in a landfill, go to the “Bible Superstore” Jesus christ! Can you imagine how many trees are dead because of this fucking store? Now that‘s truly a corrupt company. . . These are fascist ploys designed to make money by targeting a particular crowd. My point is that everyone has hobbies/participates in activities that occupy their time, and there is always an element of corporate idealism when something catches on. Everything can be viewed as hypocritical if one chooses to look closely. It’s almost impossible to escape this unless you are part of an independent tribal ring, and live only off the land you inhabit, regretfully, these lifestyles are trampled upon, as well, by people who think they know what is best for this earth- truly unfortunate.

No, everything is not hypocritical. The English language would not have a word for hypocrisy if it applied to everything.

It is not theft to charge for a product and give value for what is spent. It is hypocrisy to tell others they should not make any money and they should destroy what little they have, while making money hand over fist.

What is "corporate idealism"?

How can you be so hostile and disrespectful to organized religion, while promoting Burning Man?

The point is that Burning Man is a lucrative business that’s goal is not to take advantage of all it’s attendees, the truth is people are willing to pay for this “service” because they know nothing is free. If it’s free, it’s probably illegal! Burning Man helps boost the economy in many productive ways, more-so than the majority of corporations in the States.

If I buy yarn and knitting needles and pay rent on a place with a bedroom I can knit in, it is true that many of those things were probably paid for. But what would I get for spending $300 to knit some place where whatever I create will become filthy and sand-encrusted and I will get heatstroke? What value does Burning Man add?

How does Burning Man help the economy? I mean, other than paying your bills specifically.

It is cliche, but it is true that most of the best things in life are free. I feel genuinely sorry for you if Burning Man has taught you otherwise.

I commend the original creators of Burning Man for their success in building a multi-million dollar art-based operation that secures their futures (while definitely not destroying others‘ futures). They didn’t start out as entrepreneurs, they started out as all artists do: longing for acceptance, understanding, and the ability to let loose and celebrate regardless of the numerous barriers that humans set up for themselves. Along the way, maybe they have made some ideological errors, but for the most part, the common idea is recognized by the participants that still attend Burning Man.

I feel that what Burning Man does removes a lot of art from the rest of the world and I do not think that is good for anyone's future.

Who are the founders of Burning Man? What artistic media have they created in?

[malcolm]

I had filled it out, but then I started getting ripped on, so I figured I’d delete it. I’ll add some tid-bits in the future, but I don’t really think many people here would care to get to know me unless I’m a submissive punch bag. They have their own agendas, and I’ve obviously tried to come into this with a positive attitude (which I never have) and it’s just shows me what I knew all along. . . But thanks for the advice. It seems you are able to voice your opinion and standpoints, while still managing to remain completely neutral.

wait.....who's a submissive punching bag?
in all fairness, i don't think you calling the other forum members things like that is gonna get anyone to really read what you type my dear.

[DJ Bat]

Hmrmrmrrr.....

Ok... I think the overall focus needs to be brought back into this thread a little bit. I know I try to walk the line and remain 'neutral' because I don't take sides - I stand by my own beliefs and values and if they co-exist on both sides, so be it.

However, my personal opinion is neither yours or Amelia's and to be honest, I'm not really seeing the point for Burning Man to come onto here and spam the BB forums past a certain point. Especially not to this point. There's obviously something personal between Amelia/BB and Burning Man from a professional standpoint and given her reasons and the fact that I can relate being a musical artist, I can see how her frustration can turn into a short fuse in all things BM related. If I go to BM and put on an Xorcist concert, video it and record it and want to release it as a Live DVD/CD and find out that BM says NO or perhaps says only if they get 50%, I would laugh in their faces. I would also be extremely frustrated and angry that I couldn't truly enjoy BM in the manner that I felt was as an expression of my artistic self. You see, I need to pay the rent too and I agree if I could somehow end up selling 10000 copies of this DVD/CD, that would make me very happy. I've paid my dues and I'm sick of it. I'm still paying them thanks to this shit economy so believe me, I'm with you on wanting to make a living out of this... The cold hard truth is that 99.9% of said visual or musical artists can't.

Now I tried to steer this conversation into what I felt was a sharper focus by narrowing down the problem... let's forget that Amelia hates BM and that you may or may not be specifically here to spam BM and move to the main issue at hand now... BM's control over artists... cause as an artist, I think that's the most relevant now... and here's where it currently stands.

I posed the question to BM about me coming down and shooting pics of models there for my website cyberden.com as I'm thinking of changing my format to a pay site but I could also give my musical example above. I asked what the deal was and the only thing they said that was controlling was "in the past, we have not approved nude photos to be on a pay website but we would need to see your complete registration form before we made a final decision."

Nothing about keeping your rights or wanting a cut - and in fact, they seemed to indicate that they would perhaps make an exception in regards to nude photography depending on the "complete registration form".

Now I wrote back and asked about rights - do I retain them all unconditionally. Haven't heard back yet and it's been three days now so this is the last piece of the puzzle here. If the come back and say they do, then yea, that's lame. If they don't - well then things perhaps have changed.

Now just to clarify about BM and becoming famous from it. I have never heard of this happening. There have been known rises to fame that I've heard of from BM. In fact, it always sounded more like it was a deep personal experience that one really couldn't or wouldn't want to expend energy into creating such a thing. Perhaps that mind set is frowned upon as BM does seem to encompass that vibe of 'down with the chains of modern society' of which includes money and seems to be reinforced about their 'gifting' thang...

...but... that's an oxymoron when it's painfully obvious they're making $10 to $15 million in profit... so perhaps that's not it huh? Then what would it be? Why the control past the basic rules that BM puts out which really just stem from the originator's techno-artist-hippy-personal-dogma philosophy? Something doesn't add up here. I sense a little hypocrisy on BM's side... especially if they want artists to destroy their work for the reason of not profiting off it as opposed to 'cleaning up the Playa after all is said and done'.

The more and more we talk about this, the more and more I would love to find the time and money to go and really look into this personally. I know I would have a fucking blast - I would do whatever I could to bring my rig or tunes and probably hang w/Thunderdome yet I don't see a mention of them going this year yet...

There is also interesting reading on the BM Playa forums... basic vibe is that no cash is involved once you enter. It's all barter - but we know that - but perhaps that mindset creates the animosity against people who eventually WILL gain money from their 'experience' at BM.... It's a strange psychological mind-fuck going on there.... which again... is odd when the people running it are walking away will millions every year....

Whether the owners meant for this mindset to propagate the way it has or if BM has become this way via a bizarre sociological experiment, it DOES seem a bit what..... 1984ish? Happy Oppression? Something smells off... I just think no one really cares there as 99.9% of everyone there isn't there as a 'professional' or perhaps 'working' artist. They think of it as a "Vacation" where what happens in BM, stays in BM and AGAIN, I THINK THAT'S GREAT! Seriously - if I had no financial agenda for being a starving artist, the time and money, I would go too and LOVE IT. I know the type of creative energy that's in BM... I know it's an "Experience" - It's just what we're talking about here is allowing a professional artist to have fun too and to continue being an artist, living the way an artist does by creating art and yes, selling that to the rest of the world in any way he/she sees fit. If BM doesn't allow that, that's their right in running their 'Event'.

I guess I'll just need to see what sort of reply I get (if any) from BM. I'm not going to send them any money to review my question and I'm really surprised this isn't covered on their website but hopefully we'll see... but given the lack of "Live from BM" CD's/DVD's and lack of BM Calenders and picture books, I'm guessing we all know that answer...

[Amelia G]

Hmrmrmrrr.....
However, my personal opinion is neither yours or Amelia's and to be honest, I'm not really seeing the point for Burning Man to come onto here and spam the BB forums past a certain point. Especially not to this point. There's obviously something personal between Amelia/BB and Burning Man from a professional standpoint and given her reasons

Bat, I know you have good intentions, but please do not belittle my genuine philosophical objection as some kind of personal issue. I hadn't really thought about the fact that eleven or so years ago I had asked Burning Man about shooting there until you suggested I should contact them about getting some sort of exception. Burning Man already, to a certain extent, expressed a willingness to make exceptions for my special situation, so my concern is a larger community one. Am I really a total fool for thinking the larger community matters? I mean, if I can get mine, should the whole philosophy not matter???

Now I tried to steer this conversation into what I felt was a sharper focus by narrowing down the problem... let's forget that Amelia hates BM and that you may or may not be specifically here to spam BM and move to the main issue at hand now... BM's control over artists... cause as an artist, I think that's the most relevant now... and here's where it currently stands

Do not tell me what I hate. I think I express myself pretty decently and, if I had some simplistic view where I just haaaaaaate Burning Man so much, I would have just said "I hate Burning Man" and it would have been much easier and less time-consuming that expressing my deeply held beliefs about the actual issues faced by artists.

Now just to clarify about BM and becoming famous from it. I have never heard of this happening. . . . Perhaps that mind set is frowned upon as BM does seem to encompass that vibe of 'down with the chains of modern society' of which includes money and seems to be reinforced about their 'gifting' thang...

I am regularly appalled at the corporations which tell people they will get exposure doing something, when it is not possible to get exposure. I don't think Burning Man is particularly guilty of this, though. If they do promise exposure, then their despotic approach to control of what should be a free press is much worse.

...but... that's an oxymoron when it's painfully obvious they're making $10 to $15 million in profit... so perhaps that's not it huh? Then what would it be? Why the control past the basic rules that BM puts out which really just stem from the originator's techno-artist-hippy-personal-dogma philosophy? Something doesn't add up here. I sense a little hypocrisy on BM's side... especially if they want artists to destroy their work for the reason of not profiting off it as opposed to 'cleaning up the Playa after all is said and done'.

Oh, Bat, you are only saying that because you hate Burning Man so much.

. . .animosity against people who eventually WILL gain money from their 'experience' at BM.... It's a strange psychological mind-fuck going on there.... which again... is odd when the people running it are walking away will millions every year....

There is a difference between wanting to gain money from one's work and wanting ownership of and control over one's work.

Whether the owners meant for this mindset to propagate the way it has or if BM has become this way via a bizarre sociological experiment, it DOES seem a bit what..... 1984ish? Happy Oppression? Something smells off...

Yes. Or are you only saying that because you hate Burning Man so much?

[ForrestBlack]

Ok... I think the overall focus needs to be brought back into this thread a little bit. I know I try to walk the line and remain 'neutral' because I don't take sides - I stand by my own beliefs and values and if they co-exist on both sides, so be it.

I don't think it's a 'sides' issue. That's a bit of an oversimplification, if you don't mind my saying so. I think some legitimate concerns and questions have been discussed, some my own, some from FROZE, some from Amelia, some from you. You stated later in this post that you were investigating policy options, and I'm all for that. I think all anybody from BB is interested in is the real actual truth, but then again I don't want to put words in anybody else's mouth.

However, my personal opinion is neither yours or Amelia's and to be honest, I'm not really seeing the point for Burning Man to come onto here and spam the BB forums past a certain point. Especially not to this point. There's obviously something personal between Amelia/BB and Burning Man from a professional standpoint and given her reasons and the fact that I can relate being a musical artist, I can see how her frustration can turn into a short fuse in all things BM related. If I go to BM and put on an Xorcist concert, video it and record it and want to release it as a Live DVD/CD and find out that BM says NO or perhaps says only if they get 50%, I would laugh in their faces. I would also be extremely frustrated and angry that I couldn't truly enjoy BM in the manner that I felt was as an expression of my artistic self. You see, I need to pay the rent too and I agree if I could somehow end up selling 10000 copies of this DVD/CD, that would make me very happy. I've paid my dues and I'm sick of it. I'm still paying them thanks to this shit economy so believe me, I'm with you on wanting to make a living out of this... The cold hard truth is that 99.9% of said visual or musical artists can't.

I think you are getting caught up in the whole business/profit mentality here, which isn't to say they are not your concerns, but they are not necessarily our concerns. I do a lot of things to support myself and the art I am compelled to make. I don't 'need' to make anything at all off of images I might create at an event like BM. However, I don't think it's reasonable for them to make a rights grab anyway. Blue Blood has a journalistic capacity and I don't think it would be reasonable for BM to exert control over honest reporting on a potentially culturally relevant event. Also, in that journalistic capacity, it is kind of our job to test their message against their actions. Some of these questions are actually important, culturally.

Now I tried to steer this conversation into what I felt was a sharper focus by narrowing down the problem... let's forget that Amelia hates BM and that you may or may not be specifically here to spam BM and move to the main issue at hand now... BM's control over artists... cause as an artist, I think that's the most relevant now... and here's where it currently stands.

I don't think it's reasonable to attribute 'hate' to disagreement, even sharp disagreement. If someone makes a strong claim and past experience plus the facts plus contractual agreements don't support those claims, I don't 'hate' them, I just strongly don't buy into what they are saying. If they throw nonsense doublespeak and rhetorical obfuscation to cover their hypocrisy, I think it's reasonable to call them on it. If they then cry victim and throw around a bunch of unrelated buzz concepts like boogie man Corporations and evil organized religion and aren't we all wicked venal people deep down blah blah blah, then it gets hard to maintain respect for them, but I still don't hate them, and I don't think it's fair to say Amelia or anybody else here does either.

[DJ Bat]

Yes. Or are you only saying that because you hate Burning Man so much?

lol - yea, those rotten bastards...

No, I'm not belittling anyone. You have a personal beef with BM's policy from 11 years ago and you take advocacy with the artistic community against it which by all means is commendable. And no, I'm not patronizing now - I'm just noticing that there's this razor blade dissection going on of Frozen based on initial assumptions that she's a BM-Bot and if it was the intention to bring it to the point where it is now, so be it - I was simply more interested in BM's odd oxymoronic standpoint on regulating artists to various degrees.

And as for money - hey - I've done a lot for nothing and not because I was trying to appease an art god, but mainly because I felt compelled to do what I did. It wasn't until later that I released my works on CD and even then I recently had all my stuff available for free download for almost 6 years or so - but even artists need to try and make a living sometimes and there's nothing wrong with that. It's how we survive. When we can't survive on our art, we get day jobs :P

[ForrestBlack]

No, I'm not belittling anyone. You have a personal beef with BM's policy from 11 years ago and you take advocacy with the artistic community against it which by all means is commendable. And no, I'm not patronizing now - I'm just noticing that there's this razor blade dissection going on of Frozen based on initial assumptions that she's a BM-Bot and if it was the intention to bring it to the point where it is now, so be it - I was simply more interested in BM's odd oxymoronic standpoint on regulating artists to various degrees.

I'm not really sure anyone needs you to summarize their opinions and motivations when they are perfectly eloquent on the points themselves. I wouldn't dismiss your motivations and simply label. them 'personal' or 'beef'. It is patronizing and it is belittling. Policy matters. Policy matters a lot to us well over and above personal opportunity. Nobody thought Froze was a BM bot, and I think maybe you have not seen a 'razor dissection' because it's a lot more advanced than asking someone to support what they are claiming when their only participation here is to hawk an event with questionable practices.

And as for money - hey - I've done a lot for nothing and not because I was trying to appease an art god, but mainly because I felt compelled to do what I did. It wasn't until later that I released my works on CD and even then I recently had all my stuff available for free download for almost 6 years or so - but even artists need to try and make a living sometimes and there's nothing wrong with that. It's how we survive. When we can't survive on our art, we get day jobs :P

And? Nobody is saying you are doing anything wrong in that, it's your work so it's your choice, as it should be. But, don't confuse your choices and motivations with someone else's.

Philosophical integrity really does matter to us. We're not children anymore. We will take the hard road if the easy one costs us too much of our soul. I'm not going to sign an agreement that says I'm not going to do something and then turn around and do exactly that thing because I think I can get away with it. I'm not going to take someone's picture and promise them their image won't be abused when I've signed a document rendering control of that image to some strange organization. I avoid things that would make me a hypocrite and/or a liar. So, it's aggravating to have someone re-cast that as some sort of money motivation and personal beef. That's utter nonsense.

[DJ Bat]

So there's no summarization in that you and/or Amelia are not at all irritated, concerned, what-have-you at BM's actions of retaining rights of artist's works in a manner that you feel goes against your principals in the least? There would have to be to make you advocates against it and that means it has to be at some core, personal. You're not public service, you're artists, I know and respect that so please don't think I'm belittling and patronizing you. I'm not. I've never thought either or you were below your beliefs or standards nor have I shown disrespect or questioned either of your dignities.

Philosophical integrity should matter to everyone but at what point does a plight become personalized as opposed to generalized? All I'm saying here is that given the points made on all sides, I see, IMHO, things being more personalized then generalized, that's all.

Small point, so I generalized when I said y'all thinking Frozen was a "BM Bot" but the reaction in comments in regards to Frozen's initial posts implied just that:

Lastly, Burning Man apparently feels compelled to spam the Blue Blood forums because I find it suspect that a supposedly uninvolved person has "OMG Go to Burning Man" as their first post. Is there any other explanation, besides this being commercial outreach?

Bots are known for SPAM - the above seemed to imply perhaps a 'human-bot'? Is that such a stretch?

This was also an initial and perhaps directed rebuttal to the main post which by all means is your right as a forum owner. (Again, I don't know the 'whole story' other then the short little bits before that comment to indicate the reasoning for it), so in essence, yea, it WAS personal. How could it not be? Otherwise, why not just say something like "Are you from BM just trying to advertise on our forums?" or some other specific question...

I realize I don't hang with you two on a basis well enough to understand your thoughts outside of the internets so that does come into play in threads like these.

Whatever the case, I've said my thoughts and enjoy what these forums have to offer in content and yes, in intelligent discussion. But these are your forums and naturally you have values and standards that you upkeep them with whether it's via rules and regulations or your own personal values and belief system. That's all.

P.S. - For the record, I DON'T hate Burning Man, Amelia, Forrest, BB nor Frozen. I DO HATE cooked liver. It stinks like burning pencil erasers and offends my nostrils. I would curb cooked liver in a heartbeat. (I'd keep the onions though, they're yummy)

[Amelia G]

Bat, I expect that a promo person for Burning Man is going to defend Burning man because it is their job. If you think that is not FROZE's job, then you are probably the only one here who missed that.

Would you say that a person in a despotic country had "personal beef" with a despot who refused to allow a free press?

Would you say that a person in a free country had a "personal beef" with a leader who took that country into a war the individual was unconvinced of the necessity for?

Would you say that a person who tried to help homeless people get jobs had a "personal beef" with the societal factors which put people on the street?

What is wrong with your reading comprehension?

I am very disappointed in you as you are projecting all kinds of things into what I said and it is, frankly, offensive. I am NOT talking about my own personal potential for gain. I am talking about what I believe is right. This is the OPPOSITE of a personal issue. On a personal level, Burning Man made me an offer I suspect that a more greedy person might have taken. (In fact, it appears to be an offer that you are trying to follow up on in my place, eleven years later, with a much more mercenary goal set and less to offer Burning Man, if polite is not your thing.) I chose to do what I felt was the right thing. I had, in fact, entirely forgotten about that interaction, as it was utterly unimportant to me or my overall view of Burning Man, until you started making a big fuss in this thread about how I should contact them for a special exception.

It concerns me that I feel Burning Man discourages and subsumes art in America in many areas. As you might have noticed, Burning Man policies have not kept me from doing what I do, so there is nothing personal in my concern there.

But, hey, this is Blue Blood, where we encourage people to express any opinion they have, so long as they can back it up. Please explain to me how my philosophical objection to certain policies is personal.

[DJ Bat]

Amelia...

Wow - ok - take time to read what you said to me and tell me you honestly believe I'm all that you imply. Projecting onto you, planning a mercenary mission and consequently not being polite about it, causing you to come out of some sort of remission about your views on Burning Man? All in a veil of obvious... well not hate, but obvious disgust.

You've put BM up on this gianormous pedestal in your continued 'concern' about how they discourage and subsumes art in America yet it seems that if I try and investigate it on my own, I'm being some how a dick about it now?

Again, my point on the self-advocacy you're taking seemingly was ignored as again, I believe you when you say it's not personal with BM. However, your reactions here certainly are - I'm confused why you can't see that and instead I just get blasted for something out of left field...

Let me just make clear that it was never my intention to make you do anything, to get you to talk to them again, in fact until recently, I don't think it was even known that you maybe, perhaps did have a green light to do what you wanted without issue (except I guess the 8x10's you would have to send) but if that's the case, then why can't anyone else do the same thing? If you were able to accept their conditions (which you claim someone greedy would and again, I hope you're not implying that was me), what's stopping anyone else from going the same route? Sure they don't plaster it all over their website and sure there seems to be horror stories out there about their 'control' but for this conversation to turn into replies of how disappointed you are in me and how I have ill-intentions in contacting BM, that's just as disappointing.

So I'll stop with this thread now as oddly, it seems what I may voice is being taken as personal projections into what you're saying as I don't believe I ever did that. I extrapolated from what was already being said and discussed - if that offended, I would of thought you would of known me enough, just a little, to know that was furthest from my mind -

Peter

[DJ Bat]

lol whoops - one more thing - just to answer your last question about philosophical objection to certain policies being personal:

How can one formulate an opinion of something pro or con without it being understood on a personal level? One's own truths are their own based from learning and experience are they not? Even if you're speaking for the people or for the pretense - Therefore wouldn't objections to policies either way have to stem from some sort of personal basis? Otherwise, how would one know to be concerned about them?

Hope that made sense

[Amelia G]

You've put BM up on this gianormous pedestal in your continued 'concern' about how they discourage and subsumes art in America yet it seems that if I try and investigate it on my own, I'm being some how a dick about it now?

If you put 'concern' in quotation marks, should I take that as something other than an attempt to invalidate or belittle my genuine concerns?

I am talking about Burning Man in this thread because it is a thread someone else started about Burning Man. What do you think I should be talking about in this thread?

Again, my point on the self-advocacy you're taking seemingly was ignored as again, I believe you when you say it's not personal with BM. However, your reactions here certainly are - I'm confused why you can't see that and instead I just get blasted for something out of left field...

The Burning Man representative and the other people in this thread have all been discussing the actual topic. You tried to put words in my mouth and attribute motivations to me. You are the only person who has offended me on a personal level in this thread. I am personally offended by you attempting to tell me and others what I think, and grotesquely misrepresenting what I just said in this very thread, when I have quite clearly expressed what I think for myself.

lol whoops - one more thing - just to answer your last question about philosophical objection to certain policies being personal:

How can one formulate an opinion of something pro or con without it being understood on a personal level? One's own truths are their own based from learning and experience are they not? Even if you're speaking for the people or for the pretense - Therefore wouldn't objections to policies either way have to stem from some sort of personal basis? Otherwise, how would one know to be concerned about them?

Hope that made sense

Do you really think that all activists have some personal stake in anything they try to make better? If that were the case, then no minority or disadvantaged group of any kind would ever have received any rights or benefits in any society ever.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

I've been reading this thread for days now....Where's the fucker who's on fire, already? Jeez.....

[FROZE]

Bat, I expect that a promo person for Burning Man is going to defend Burning man because it is their job. If you think that is not FROZE's job, then you are probably the only one here who missed that. . .

Job? I'm practically unemployed. Burning Man should be paying me to do this!

[FROZE]

Who are you quoting with your quotation marks?

The fact that Burning Man has "kickstarted a generation of artists that are content to do this" is exactly the problem. They are disempowering a large segment of a whole generation of people who would have brought art and beauty and flamboyance to the world all the time, but now just put all of that energy into their yearly time on the playa. People who are not artists need what artists create, but there is pressure against being an artist. Normally, the internal pressure to create overpowers societal pressure, but Burning Man releases this pressure in the middle of the desert where it can not impact society.

This is the first you mentioned employees. What positions are you saying Burning Man is good for paying? People who post about it on forums? What is the going rate for that these days?

I guess I should have used single quotes.

Yes, well, look at me, I'm practically unemployed (I work feelance as a model/mua/stylist/wardrobe designer) and I get about 4 jobs a month over here, and I'm almost homeless. I was hoping to try and work for BM. If they are paying anyone, it should be me, I mean, my family has put thousands of dollars into the event over a 15 year span plus community service volunteering. . . Yet I still go. I just wanted to go out with a "big bang" eleven years is enough for me. I want it to be my most memorable year. I am going to shift gears, and I figured to try and do a bit more networking before I dismiss myself.

Accounting, bookkeeping. . . If they do, then I should be getting paid! C’mon, I do not get paid to do this, and I'm beginning to think that I should stop trying to defend BM until I actually do work for them. Why do you insist on repeating this?

[FROZE]

I'll try to address as many issues as I can tonight, apologies if I can't get to it, I don't have my own personal isp.

[FROZE]

Really? What points do you feel you have made which have been ignored? I know I feel like you have avoided responding to most questions posed to you and I have attempted to point out the most important ones you skipped.

There’s nothing in my posts that you would consider a relevant point? Every sentence I write is a point that I try to elaborate on and clarify. Nope, I try to address each issue you bring up. It‘s hard for me to respond to every single word that is written when I am on a time limit, and don’t have an isp. I’m trying my best to respond to everything that’s hurled.

Who has slung mud at you? How are you defining mudslinging? When others tried to respond to you on the topics of art, philosophy, personal expression, and freedom, you tried to change the subject to money. Please scroll up and re-read if you do not recall how the conversation went.

I’ll have you know that money never had anything to do with Burning Man for me. And it wasn’t my intention to begin a drawn-out conversation about the financial matters of BM, I was trying to respond to others’ posts that had some issues about money. As a child, I got in free. I volunteered with my mother (who worked for the BLM as a geologist, and would volunteer to get in free as well.) And when I got older, my mother would buy me my tickets and provide all the supplies I needed, so I never really even thought about money at all. This year, being as it may be my last year, I want to go independent. And I still want to find a suitable group of alternatives to camp/collaborate with. . . Might as well try to make it as memorable as I can without obsessing about financial holes. . .

[FROZE]

I'm not really seeing the point for Burning Man to come onto here and spam the BB forums past a certain point. Especially not to this point.

Well, here I'll make this easy and stop "Spamming." Again, I am not Burning Man!
*An announcer yells a promotional add from the speakers on FROZE‘s machine*
“Welcome to the Real World, FROZE; submit your opinion for us to judge and immediately get a free, all-access pass to the most interactive experience on the web! We will call you a degenerate while we make you vomit up your lunch with our newly-developed, simulated finger-gag device (which we can also jab into your ass for a nominal fee), but wait, let us tick you off, and we will personally feed you dog shit from a dog that eats nothing but cow manure and nutritionally enhanced pig fetuses from our exclusive virtual animal processing barn! And even better: Have you got an itch you can’t scratch? We’ll strip off your clothes and **** you silly with a cucumber covered in hot sauce and maggots; you’ll forget you even had an itch in the first place! We guarantee: if your ass is not thoroughly chapped by the time your session is expired, we will publicly tie you down with barbed-wire, fart and spit all over you, and take pictures that we will immediately post against your will on our fabricated photo and word dump center! Offer only valid for specks, (predetermined with our highly technological shock treatment identification machine) one-armed prostitutes with herpes and small children.

**FROZE banishes herself from Blue Blood Boards**

[DJ Bat]

Amelia... You're giving me way too much credit here...

Where did I offend you so much? What exactly did I say or do?

If I can't write an opinion or hypothetically get to a point even when I preface it with, and I quote:

"However, my personal opinion is neither yours or Amelia's"

without getting of accusations of representing your thoughts or BB's standpoints then um... you don't see the issue with that?

Seriously? Where is this fire?

Maybe it was this:
"There's obviously something personal between Amelia/BB and Burning Man from a professional standpoint and given her reasons and the fact that I can relate being a musical artist, I can see how her frustration can turn into a short fuse in all things BM related."

Was it this? I really don't know -... what I do know is that you said you attempted a professional relationship with them in the past but went on to talk about how you would have to shell out the rights to your works, have your print choices be governed by them, send and 8x10's to make things work, etc...." and given the tone of your overall summary of your BM experience, it's a bit obvious they're not on your Christmas Card list. Did I misrepresent?

I dunno Amelia... maybe it was this?
"Let's forget that Amelia hates BM and that you may or may not be specifically here to spam BM and move to the main issue at hand now..."

Ok Ok.. .so I said that to cut to the chase... so sue me - It was a hypothetical segway and said without malice... believe it or not... I just wanted to jump to the issue of BM's policy imposed on artists...

From there, there's nothing about you or BB... I choose to contact BM, sure, hell even Forrest was curious about the response so what's the big deal here? Yes, I said I wanted to shoot models but only to keep things closer to oh, I don't know, THE SUBJECT MATTER AT HAND? Sheesh... I'm genuinely curious about this and if I could possibly HELP out a friend in the process, so be it. Remember, I've wanted to go for a long time and yes, to have possibly performed and if recording that for my own use would be put in jeopardy, just like you and your photos, then yea, that's what's called a common base and I'd like to know my standpoint as well.

However, it seems you don't want or better put, need my help which I have no problem with and I apologize if it came off that way - wasn't my intention...

The only thing that upsets me now is why you've used withheld information to lambast me with. I call No Fairs!!! This was in regards to the fact that you've already contacted BM past what you said earlier and in fact apparently received an understanding agreement that would of been fine with you (provided if you were a, how did you put it, a greedy individual?) yet you're just now using that to lambast me with (!?!?) - LOL - low blow - you should of made that known from the start - that would of really changed how I would of approached this whole thing as that really does change the dynamics of things and would have many many posts ago.

To be honest, I'm not really concerned with the whole argument on how you're an impartial artistic humanitarian who has no personal agenda against BM for the apparent values they uphold that possibly hurt artists at BM as that's you're thing - I commend you for it - ok? I actually have explained my reasons for my actions already... and quite frankly am tired of it all now - that and my 2 year old has repeatedly been bashing a disassembled wire hanger file holder on the hardwood floor for the past 20 minutes which is enough to drive anyone spare yet it makes apparently a great music kaos toy

Ok - off to the other forums - and if you really need to continue yelling at me, go ahead and just do it in email ;-)

[Amelia G]

There are few things I find more contemptible than dismissing the idea of having any values of any kind on the basis that every person should only be looking out for him or herself.

Bat, I am not offended by your actions. I am offended that you are trying to tell me that I have some personal issue with Burning Man, while I am trying to discuss larger philosophy. Usually, a discussion of philosophy is not below the tone of the room on the Blue Blood boards and I am disappointed that you would devolve to sidesy tonal nonsense, rather than discussing the actual issues.

I will not take this to email. I will not be accepting the "friend request" you just sent me today. You grotesquely misrepresented my clearly stated position and made inaccurate and extremely insulting accusations to me in public and, if you are planning to apologize, you can do that in public too.

Do you really think that all activists have some personal stake in anything they try to make better? Do you really believe that disadvantaged groups only get injustices cleared away by people who have a dog in the fight, that everybody only agitates for their own personal gain? Do you really think that nobody ever does anything, except for the most venal of self-serving reasons? Do you believe there are no good people, only good marketing bullet points?

If you did actually bother reading what Forrest Black wrote, you might try responding to it, instead of offhand referencing it in your post to me. He pointed out, I thought succinctly and clearly, that, while Blue Blood might be able to benefit from shooting Burning Man, there are issues such as not being able to promise where photos would and would not be used, if Burning Man had final say, etc. Any objection is about the larger issue and not whether or not Blue Blood could benefit.

If nobody feels the philosophy matters and should be of interest, Forrest could have just deleted the original thread as spam, instead of asking what makes something commercial, when one is talking about art. The idea is to discuss the actual issues and not to figure out how one person or one organization might be able to benefit.

If you are really so small-minded that you believe the only thing which should matter to me or to Forrest is whether we got business benefit, then I have gravely misjudged you as a better person than you are.

[Amelia G]

Well, here I'll make this easy and stop "Spamming." Again, I am not Burning Man!
*An announcer yells a promotional add from the speakers on FROZE‘s machine*
“Welcome to the Real World, FROZE; submit your opinion for us to judge and immediately get a free, all-access pass to the most interactive experience on the web! We will call you a degenerate while we make you vomit up your lunch with our newly-developed, simulated finger-gag device (which we can also jab into your ass for a nominal fee), but wait, let us tick you off, and we will personally feed you dog shit from a dog that eats nothing but cow manure and nutritionally enhanced pig fetuses from our exclusive virtual animal processing barn! And even better: Have you got an itch you can’t scratch? We’ll strip off your clothes and **** you silly with a cucumber covered in hot sauce and maggots; you’ll forget you even had an itch in the first place! We guarantee: if your ass is not thoroughly chapped by the time your session is expired, we will publicly tie you down with barbed-wire, fart and spit all over you, and take pictures that we will immediately post against your will on our fabricated photo and word dump center! Offer only valid for specks, (predetermined with our highly technological shock treatment identification machine) one-armed prostitutes with herpes and small children.

**FROZE banishes herself from Blue Blood Boards**

That is completely repulsive and utterly unintelligible. If saying things like this is how Burning Man teaches humans to interact with other humans, that is just yucky and needless.

I'm sorry you are so very offended Bat called you a "spammer", but you could easily have filled out your profile and interacted as he suggested and people would have stopped thinking that.

By the way, your supposed avatar and profile photo sure have been on the web for a long time for you to be who you say you are and have those photos actually be of you.

[DJ Bat]

Ok... Ameila... you're ignoring everything I wrote. I already said I have no beef with your philosophies. Why do you keep harping on that? What point are you trying to make now other then by insulting me by asking me something like this:

Do you really think that all activists have some personal stake in anything they try to make better? Do you really believe that disadvantaged groups only get injustices cleared away by people who have a dog in the fight, that everybody only agitates for their own personal gain? Do you really think that nobody ever does anything, except for the most venal of self-serving reasons? Do you believe there are no good people, only good marketing bullet points?


Yup, now I'm offended and insulted that you would stoop to trying to set me up with questions you already know the answer to and I'm not just saying that just because you did... I truly am offended by this now...

This is also twisting your logic to facilitate the means to talk smack about me:

If you are really so small-minded that you believe the only thing which should matter to me or to Forrest is whether we got business benefit, then I have gravely misjudged you as a better person than you are.


What am I supposed to say now? You already have passed judgement on me already haven't you?

Remember, you left out information that apparently changes the tone a little on how BM really represented your rights and possibly there was an amicable agreement yet it apparently involved "Greed" of which there ya go, more info that isn't completely disclosed but did I judge you on it? No, I just said it would of changed the Dynamics of things -- that's all... and for me... not you... FFS...why are you so upset?

So basically, you want me to apologize for something that really seems like you have facilitated in creating... I already explained my standpoint on your philosophies and again, please read, I have no issues with them - I haven't represented them and in fact, I applaud them. The only thing I said is that philosophies have to come within, they have to have some shred of personal value to them to allow for association. That sort of is how philosophies are taken to heart enough to act on them. At least it is for me... That offends you?

[DJ Bat]

You grotesquely misrepresented my clearly stated position and made inaccurate and extremely insulting accusations to me in public and, if you are planning to apologize, you can do that in public too.

Again... show me where I GROTESQUELY misrepresented your stated position. Show me my inaccurate and extremely insulting accusations specifically TO YOU here in public.... I'm not saying that to be a smart-ass - I'm saying that because I am unaware that this was done - please... show me...

[Amelia G]

Again... show me where I GROTESQUELY misrepresented your stated position. Show me my inaccurate and extremely insulting accusations specifically TO YOU here in public.... I'm not saying that to be a smart-ass - I'm saying that because I am unaware that this was done - please... show me...

I realize much of what I wrote was long, so here is where Forrest Black summarized the general stance he and I both have:

My only agenda is to be able to enjoy a festival for what it says it is. To be able to practice my own creativity, which they say they encourage, without it being unreasonably taken from me, which they have flat out told me they would do. I don't have anything against BM intrinsically, it's just that the rhetoric and the terms don't come close to matching up, and this disappoints me

Here are a couple of the points I made which I felt were most important and hopefully condense some of my thoughts on the subject into something digestible. I though this was a forum conversation, not an article I might be tested on, so perhaps I could have been more concise:

. . . $300 to get into an event you have to bring your own entertainment to? I can get people to wear crazy half-naked outfits and do crafting in my living room where there is central air conditioning. Why would I pay someone else $300 so I could do the same thing in a crowded, filthy, sweaty place where my cell phone does not work so I probably can't even find my friends?

If people are supposed to gift their art and food and shelter to others, why does Burning Man charge at all, much less charge so much?

. . . they are extremely commercial, but they want to prevent creative people from doing anything with their own work . . . they are just favoring big business over indie artists.

I think the way Burning Man treats artists leads to less art in America in general. Burning Man provides an outlet for creative people, but they encourage painters and sculptors and such to destroy their work once it is complete and they balls-out claim ownership and control of work by photographers and writers and filmmakers. Press people are expected to pay to get in to Burning Man and then give Burning Man the right to tell them where and what they can and can't say or depict of the event afterward and anyone who might be press is expected, despite not being on any sort of comp list, to "register" with the event. Fascist much. If Burning Man wants to use rhetoric about the freedoms America is supposed to have, they might want to revisit that whole free speech and freedom of the press thing.

. . . I did not say that nothing about Burning Man appeals to me. I enjoy creativity and flamboyant fashion and I agree with some of the Burning Man rhetoric. It just does not appear to me that the organizers of Burning Man actually live by the rhetoric they preach.

Burning Man tries to own all art created and tries to destroy every piece of art they can't own. I also have a serious problem with some corporation trying to own all art everyone creates without even giving anything in return and I have a problem with a corporation telling artists what they may do with their own work. . . .

Forrest Black kicked off this whole conversation by responding to the original post with a query on how one would define commercial. At first, you seemed to be participating in the conversation. Then, all of a sudden, you started talking about how obviously I "hate" Burning Man and have some sort of "personal" issue.

Do you for real not understand how it is belittling and invalidating to enter a big picture philosophical discussion and tell one of the participants how she feels, state something very different from how she said she feels, and then tell her what she is saying is actually expression of only some tiny small picture personal issue and not any larger important one?

[DJ Bat]

I had addressed this already:

Maybe it was this:
"There's obviously something personal between Amelia/BB and Burning Man from a professional standpoint and given her reasons and the fact that I can relate being a musical artist, I can see how her frustration can turn into a short fuse in all things BM related."

Was it this? I really don't know -... what I do know is that you said you attempted a professional relationship with them in the past but went on to talk about how you would have to shell out the rights to your works, have your print choices be governed by them, send and 8x10's to make things work, etc...." and given the tone of your overall summary of your BM experience, it's a bit obvious they're not on your Christmas Card list. Did I misrepresent?

I dunno Amelia... maybe it was this?
"Let's forget that Amelia hates BM and that you may or may not be specifically here to spam BM and move to the main issue at hand now..."

Ok Ok.. .so I said that to cut to the chase... so sue me - It was a hypothetical segway and said without malice... believe it or not... I just wanted to jump to the issue of BM's policy imposed on artists...

If that's not clear enough, here..

Before I said what I did, you had shown distaste, displeasure, annoyance and what have you for the Burning Man festival and for those who run it...

...crowded, filthy, sweaty place

Burning Man is just one more greedy organization...

I think the way Burning Man treats artists leads to less art in America in general.

they balls-out claim ownership and control of work by photographers and writers and filmmakers.

Golly gee, call the Burning Man spammer a spammer and they don't come back. I bet that means they not guilty.

I do not think being dirty and sweaty and being unable to find my friends sounds fun. I do not think it would encourage my creativity to give some corporation all rights to my work, including the right to tell me I can't show it to people. I do not think telling artists to destroy their art encourages year-round art and creativity. Where is the freedom of choice in letting some corporation tell me what to do with my own work? And where is the freedom in paying $300 to said corporation so they can boss me around?

and then after a long post by me:

(To ME) I think you really get what my issues are. If the Burning Man rhetoric did not appeal to me, then I wouldn't be so bothered by the hypocrisies.

It is not just a question of Burning Man getting to decide what use of the images they approve of, which I object to partially because I feel this is hypocritical, given their stated values, but also because this is such an obvious violation of basic American rights to freedom of the press.

...and so at this point to me in this thread you've told anyone reading that you have a distaste for BM as an organization and consequently you're not so hot of the event either.

So then came the threads before I said what I did that set you off. They had alot of exchange between you and Froze - I read it - I didn't have an issue with it - It was diverging from what I THOUGHT was the point of the entire basis of not just your exchanges, but of the thread: BURNING MAN'S STANDPOINT ON SAID ARTISTS RIGHTS... I mean you even kept refering to Burning Man throughout your comments...

For me, I'm thinking, till this day I've still not read anything that says BM owns the rights to an artist's work on their website nor in their recent email to me. This piece of the puzzle was missing and your data as you mentioned was from years ago. Maybe things had changed? Maybe while there is this registering of cameras, etc., that perhaps there has been a change in practice... no one knew for sure yet... hell, even one of the original owners two years ago just sued the others for the BM name. There's obviously trouble in paradise there - What seemed relevant was that if this policy had changed, then the entire thread could possibly change. If you truly don't care about artists making a buck or not to support themselves, then where's the harm in trying to resolve that avenue with BM? At least that's how I saw it... and maybe it was a stretch, and maybe my timing sucked, but to all out go ballistic on me for those two things that I said that had NOTHING to do with what you're saying they do and everything to do with what I've tried to point out as outlined above is what confusing me to all hell and back.

I'm also a little puzzled on how you don't take into account any shred of past history of what I may of represented in my actions as not just an artist and promoter for almost 19 years, but a supporter of this scene be it music, art, whatever since 1982 when I first started a free online network for what was back then the beginning of my support for such artistic outlets.... even when I charged for CyberDen for a year or so, I made $0 off it. I lost money actually as my bills to run it were 20 times higher then what I would make from subscriptions but I felt it was important to support the bands, labels and artists who had no other online outlet. Why would I go against values that when you pose them, I already had no issues with? I've tried to explain this already.

This is what I was talking about how I sometimes really hate the internet forum theatre. There are things behind the screen that play a factor into how someone perceives what they're reading as opposed to what's really being said....

Now if you've somehow taken what I've said erroneously because I didn't spell something out in detail or didn't make the above clear in what I thought was already a set facet of the entire thread, I truly am sorry. I realize you nor Forrest never knew me past the few interactions we've had and all I can say is that sucks - if you did know me, you would know that I would never do something so ridiculous. But time goes on and who am I to assume that you know me.

I hope this clears things up... if not, then I'm done here and feel free to just purge me from your forums as apparently nothing I say to explain how utterly innocuous and impersonal those two comments were towards you or Forrest is making any difference.

The only reason I've taken the time to sit and sift through this and not just jump this ship of confusion is out of my respect to you both as not just artists, but at one time acquaintances.

Peter