Big Boob Barbie and Country Club Biff are not the Oppressors

[The Newswire]

Many folks who fancy themselves individualistic iconoclasts like to imagine that there is some 80's movie villain guy or some beautiful blonde debutante girl (with huge knockers) who is holding...

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[Raza]

I don't think 'community' really describes the collective of alt-identified individualists; that would be somewhat contradictory. It is also not a community that I would want to support in 'gaining strength' in contrast with other communities, but rather the ideals and attitudes of autonomous individualism and social deviancy as they exist in any individual in any quantity.

There may not really be any major external forces out to oppress goths or punks in particular, but the essence of counterculture is opposition to the socio-psychological mechanics of imitative and conformist decision making. The instinctive tendency its adherents have to perceive deviants as threats and adress them as such - a psychological mechanism, not any specific person or group of people - remains it's primary 'enemy'. Most of this does not come from likeminded people, although arguably identifying anyone as likeminded poses the risk of eroding one's dedication to individuality.

The idea of counterculture isn't to build a community in which everyone validates everyone else and we all feel supported and comfortable; that's the idea of mainstream culture, and the result is that nobody in it really thinks about what they're doing anymore. The idea of counterculture is to lean on ones own tastes and ideals, rejecting external pressures where we feel they do not suit us, vocally if so derised. It is not a failure if everyone pursuing it does not get behind what everyone else is doing.

[TheDeathKnight]

Well, I agree that there is a lot of backstabbing and nasty gossip in "the scene". People make fun of people who take it all too seriously, or people who are new to the scene, or people who aren't as cool, or whatever. But that's just the typical social thing that happens at every job, in every scene, starting back in High School...

But I'd have to agree with Raza, that if you are talking about us as a social or cultural group of society, it's the outside society that views us as "different" or "disruptive" to their normal lifestyle. And it's not likely that they are going to change their views on that. Even if everyone dressed like we do, and listened to the same music, there would still be some group that was outside that "norm" doing something else we don't agree with. There are tons of "subculture" groups. You could look at gangs as a subculture. Or skinheads. Or whatever. Neither us, nor other parts of society, are going to agree that what those groups do and believe is ok.

Now if all you are talking about is dressing funny, or having crazy hair, maybe people can learn to accept that. But society associates other behaviors with our "scene" as well. They fear their kids will get into drugs, sex, wild behavior, S&M, cutting, etc. It's not the look that parents fear. It's the behavior they think generally goes along with it. The same thing happens if a girl brings home a gangster-looking boyfriend.

So here is the other question. Do you want people to accept you and think everything you do is normal? Or do you like being clearly on the outside? For me, I wish more people were open to being wild and creative. Be that with their activities, dress, sex lives, or whatever. I don't want everyone in society to be boring. I'd prefer more people be into the things we are into. But on the other hand, it's kind of nice to be able to clearly define who's probably interesting, and who's more conservative.

[Morning Glory]

Of course there are going to be people that are spiteful for the hell of it, but within any real counter culture group if someone is critical of success I think that it's because said person(s) does so in a way that is not counter cultural.

Taking an idea and creating a market for it is not counter cultural, it's prettymuch system defining. Maybe it's just me and I'm not on the same page as everyone else here, but making money is not revolutionary. That doesn't mean I'm going to hold it against people for doing so, but I don't believe that it achieves any goals in transforming progressive society or individuals.

I also think that pointing the finger at "counter culture cannibalism" instead of the over-culture at stifling creativity is just feeding into that very thing by turning it against itself.

[Raza]

Of course there are going to be people that are spiteful for the hell of it, but within any real counter culture group if someone is critical of success I think that it's because said person(s) does so in a way that is not counter cultural.

Taking an idea and creating a market for it is not counter cultural, it's prettymuch system defining. Maybe it's just me and I'm not on the same page as everyone else here, but making money is not revolutionary. That doesn't mean I'm going to hold it against people for doing so, but I don't believe that it achieves any goals in transforming progressive society or individuals.

I also think that pointing the finger at "counter culture cannibalism" instead of the over-culture at stifling creativity is just feeding into that very thing by turning it against itself.

Naw, I've got your page. I said pretty much the same thing in the thread about alt people not voting for whatshisname the emo american idol guy.

[TheDeathKnight]

The problem I see is this:

People in the "alt" scene, tend to make up their own rules for what is "authentic" or what is "real" or who is adequately "hardcore" and who is faking it, or a "newbie" or a "poser". But the rules for someone with a punk rock philosophy are different for the rules for someone from the goth scene, and so on. And since we are all mixed together at many events, and in terms of how society treats us, it seems odd to be so discriminatory within our own culture. Sure, some people do drugs, and some people are straightedge. So what? Let people do what they want to do. If a goth or a rivet gets a mohawk, are they not a real punk rocker because they drive a BMW? Does it really matter? I just like the fact that some people aren't following the mainstream. I don't care so much if they are into the exact same music, or if they are tattooed or not, or what exact style they are into. I think it's cool that people rebel against the norm. So I try not to be so harsh in terms of criticizing people for how they look, especially within the alt scene. There are also people who are really hardcore, crazy individuals, but they look pretty damn normal. That shouldn't matter either. Anyone who's not going along with the mainstream is cool by me. Even if they only "rebel" on the weekends, and work a totally normal job M-F. They are still giving an effort to be different, and be creative, and be a little crazy. So good for them....

[One Eyed Cat]

Today, actually. We're working with a band who also owns a small label. He was expressing similar sentiments and had a horrific year. For him, I go the extra mile. I am going to have to ponder countercultural and community ramifications. I intend to address the subject on my site in greater depth in 2010. It will be more along the lines of (yeah they'll bash us) where do we from here?

OEC