The Merchandise Canard: How it (doesn't) work in practice

The seemingly gradual demise of the mid-list (lacking a better term) bands and labels was brought up here. I've had some recent experience booking shows. Here's how it's (not really) working: The guarantees tend to be lower in exchange for "all ages" shows. A lot of bands now have sponsorship from Hot Topic and other companies. The band will request additional room and time to sell the merchandise. I don't think it works to their advantage. You lose a segment of the audience when they know it is going to be all ages (they suck trying to set up but that's another topic). It limits the promoter's ability to bill a set at hours when more people would generally attend shows. You have additional limits on who you can bill. You may well miss out billing a popular local whose audience would later augment the national in terms of record sales and even merch.

I know a lot of this has to do with ptp and lagging record shows. I understand this business model. I'm just not sure it is going to work (for those bands applying it, plenty don't as well)

OEC

*Lagging record sales* even.

Anyone have any thoughts on where to go from here in terms of bands/touring/decent renumeration? I think a lot of us may well be fans of (or even friends with) some of these folks.

Unfortunately it's a result of the market mood. 'Safe' tie-ins are always available with long strings attached, and so if a band has the option they often prefer to go with someone else who allows them their freedom. However with the music market contracting faster than sphincters in Wall St, the gamblers and bit-players are all pulling their deals. Sponsors want cast-iron guarantees their cash is going to pay dividends, and if there's a choice between backing an all-American-teen pop act or a rat-eating death metal band, it's hardly a surprise where the checks go.

I know it doesn't make sense from a musical perspective, but when you tell the accounts guy that signing band X will instantly block access to anyone under 16 and offend every resident of Stepford, they start grinding their teeth.

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Originally Posted by Mindgames

Unfortunately it's a result of the market mood. 'Safe' tie-ins are always available with long strings attached, and so if a band has the option they often prefer to go with someone else who allows them their freedom. However with the music market contracting faster than sphincters in Wall St, the gamblers and bit-players are all pulling their deals. Sponsors want cast-iron guarantees their cash is going to pay dividends, and if there's a choice between backing an all-American-teen pop act or a rat-eating death metal band, it's hardly a surprise where the checks go.

I know it doesn't make sense from a musical perspective, but when you tell the accounts guy that signing band X will instantly block access to anyone under 16 and offend every resident of Stepford, they start grinding their teeth.

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True. They are looking for safe short term gains at this point. Some of these folks aren't even normally all that tame. It is a shame having to scale back shows. Hopefully, something that is more feasible over the long term will emerge. I can't say it hurts promoters beyond the logistics of all ages. The profit margins have probably increased (low guarantee + 100% door deals + in house marketing at the mall) = $$$. If you're not in it for the money though, it's just an annoyance (albeit an understandable one)

OEC

it almost never has to do with the actual content of the music that defines an "all ages" show. I've never been to an an over 18 show. I've never even heard of one. I've only been to a 21 and over, as in they are going to sell booze. that's the only difference.

I don't really think every highly of bands that won't play all ages shows. Most people that are interested in music are teens and young adults. that just shows that they don't care at all about their audience as a fan base, they just want to make money by playing at a place that will give them a better guarantee because they are making money off the sale of alcohol, not off the music.

yes, I know, the concept of trying to do something for free or non/low profit sounds insane to most people. but believe it or not some people actually like playing music because they enjoy it and they would and do do it even if all the expense comes right out of their own pocket.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

it almost never has to do with the actual content of the music that defines an "all ages" show. I've never been to an an over 18 show. I've never even heard of one. I've only been to a 21 and over, as in they are going to sell booze. that's the only difference.

I don't really think every highly of bands that won't play all ages shows. Most people that are interested in music are teens and young adults. that just shows that they don't care at all about their audience as a fan base, they just want to make money by playing at a place that will give them a better guarantee because they are making money off the sale of alcohol, not off the music.

yes, I know, the concept of trying to do something for free or non/low profit sounds insane to most people. but believe it or not some people actually like playing music because they enjoy it and they would and do do it even if all the expense comes right out of their own pocket.

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Try booking an all ages show in Minneapolis. It's pretty damn difficult. I don't do it for money personally. The bands aren't doing at a lower profit margin, they are hedging that merch sales increase will an all ages.

OEC

if people spend less on booze, then they will probably have more to spend on merch. kinda makes sense.

I know that it can be tough booking a venue. around here you can't book lower level bands unless they want to play for donations. there is no all ages venue for that stuff there. just headline acts that can get a draw, or places with unreasonable guarantees. so most bands either play a bar, or they don't come through at all.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

if people spend less on booze, then they will probably have more to spend on merch. kinda makes sense.

I know that it can be tough booking a venue. around here you can't book lower level bands unless they want to play for donations. there is no all ages venue for that stuff there. just headline acts that can get a draw, or places with unreasonable guarantees. so most bands either play a bar, or they don't come through at all.

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Up here, they even have rules on times you can book all ages. Venues just cringe when you mention it. It is doable, but it can be a major nightmare booking shows like that. Local bands need to work to survive. Hard to manage 3PM load-ins.

OEC

Funny this thread should come up right now. The wife and I are invoved in a non-profit experimental music collective called High Mayhem (.org) We just finished with the three day festival that we put on every year. It's always all ages and always has a huge turn out. Trouble is, no one gets a garantee because we just don't have it. The festival itself costs several thousand to put on and we barely break even every year. Nobody, including ourselves, gets paid anything, but we dedicate ourselves to it and every year have over a hundred submissions to listen to from bands that want to play the fest even though they know they won't be paid for the show. They make their travelling money on merch. Probably not much, but they still feel justified in tavelling to Santa Fe to play. The rest of the year we produce close to two or more smaller shows a month with less overhead, so we can offer a modest garantee, but they still make the bulk of their money with recordings. We are also a recording studio and collectively produce albums for many of the bands here locally and some who come through (we record every live show). If it wasn't for recording sales, this organization would fail. The all ages thing doesn't seem to affect us, though.

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Originally Posted by DonkeyMoses

Funny this thread should come up right now. The wife and I are invoved in a non-profit experimental music collective called High Mayhem (.org) We just finished with the three day festival that we put on every year. It's always all ages and always has a huge turn out. Trouble is, no one gets a garantee because we just don't have it. The festival itself costs several thousand to put on and we barely break even every year. Nobody, including ourselves, gets paid anything, but we dedicate ourselves to it and every year have over a hundred submissions to listen to from bands that want to play the fest even though they know they won't be paid for the show. They make their travelling money on merch. Probably not much, but they still feel justified in tavelling to Santa Fe to play. The rest of the year we produce close to two or more smaller shows a month with less overhead, so we can offer a modest garantee, but they still make the bulk of their money with recordings. We are also a recording studio and collectively produce albums for many of the bands here locally and some who come through (we record every live show). If it wasn't for recording sales, this organization would fail. The all ages thing doesn't seem to affect us, though.

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Kudos. It is, unfortunately, impossible for me to book anything beyond locals without a guarantee. I always hit it, my main thing is being able to pay local bands. I just do it for fun personally.

OEC

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Originally Posted by One Eyed Cat

Kudos. It is, unfortunately, impossible for me to book anything beyond locals without a guarantee. I always hit it, my main thing is being able to pay local bands. I just do it for fun personally.

OEC

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who are you booking for? If it is for a bar I can see where this could get tricky for you. Really the only way we get away with the no guarantee situation is on account of it being a 3 day festival. Performers get more connections, press and fun out of the gig , and i think because of these factors are more likely to play without a guarantee. I myself have often played without one in a festival situation, whereas in a steady bar gig I usually expect some sort of payback from the door just for bringing in customers and hopefully getting them to hang out and drink. Not to say that we have'nt also done free local shows for years just to drive up exposure and interest in our project. Its awesome that you do this though , promoters are often the unsung heroes of the industry. Good luck to you in your efforts

Definately. Having been on both sides of the stage, it isn't easy. But, ultimately, it's been worth it. Funny thing is, as a band, we don't actually have any merch.

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Originally Posted by Ubiquitress

who are you booking for? If it is for a bar I can see where this could get tricky for you. Really the only way we get away with the no guarantee situation is on account of it being a 3 day festival. Performers get more connections, press and fun out of the gig , and i think because of these factors are more likely to play without a guarantee. I myself have often played without one in a festival situation, whereas in a steady bar gig I usually expect some sort of payback from the door just for bringing in customers and hopefully getting them to hang out and drink. Not to say that we have'nt also done free local shows for years just to drive up exposure and interest in our project. Its awesome that you do this though , promoters are often the unsung heroes of the industry. Good luck to you in your efforts

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Between now and New Years, I'll have 5 shows at 3 different venues. I have 100% door deals on all but one. The venue actually paid for that one and asked me to fill out the bill. In retrospect, I should have paid the guarantee. It has turned out to be a logistical nightmare. I'm technically a promoter, I really don't do it for cash though. I pay the guarantee and hope to clear my expenses and pay the local acts. It is more for exposure for them though.

I started doing it up here just due to noticing a lot of good bands skipping over the cities. Some good local bands had a hard time getting good gigs also. I've never had a steady gig at one venue for many years. I'm going to make it semi-official with a website etc. I really just do it for fun though. I speak the language. I'm for the musicians (although I just booked my first burlesque show which should be interesting) I like seeing people hungry and reaching for their dreams. It helps me to do the same.

Thanks for the well wishes and good luck to you also.

OEC

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Originally Posted by DonkeyMoses

Definately. Having been on both sides of the stage, it isn't easy. But, ultimately, it's been worth it. Funny thing is, as a band, we don't actually have any merch.

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It doesn't hurt certainly. Merch can be fun actually. I just don't think it will suffice as a source of income with the guarantees (often just flat fees with no backend at that) being paid out.

OEC