Should affirmative action be ended?

A couple of states have initiatives on the ballot to end affirmative action in their state. Colorado Amendment 46: End Affirmative Action is neck-and-neck yes vs. no with 7% of precincts reporting. Nebraska Initiative 424: End Affirmative Action looks likely to succeed with 6% of precincts reporting.

For anyone not familiar with it, affirmative action is the process by which certain groups which have been previously discriminated against will get special bonus treatment to attempt to level the playing field. Some groups benefit and some do not. For example, a black Christian student who wants to get into an Ivy League school will have an advantage over, for example, a white Jewish student. Even though, within living memory, many of those same schools had quotas limiting how many Jewish students they would admit. Being Eskimo and various other minorities, except generally Asian, will sometimes also be of assistance, under affirmative action, in areas such as getting into schools or getting jobs or getting promotions. Women sometimes benefit in the workplace from the affirmative action concept. In general, however, most people mean helping blacks when they speak about affirmative action.

Most historians quibble over whether slavery ended officially in 1863 or 1865, but feel it ended around then. Black men got the vote in 1870. Incidentally, white women did not get the right to vote in every state in the USA until 1920.

It seems likely that the people in Colorado and Nebraska who introduced the bill are most likely anti-Obama and possibly racist dicks. McCain is currently ahead in Nebraska. Obama is currently ahead in Colorado.

Good or bad intentions of those who introduced affirmative action or oppose it now, should affirmative action be ended now? If we have a black president, does that mean that we have enough of a meritocracy that school and workplace should be judged solely on merit and not on the color of someone's skin, plus or minus?

If affirmative action is ended for one group, should it be ended for all groups?

I'm a canadian................we don't have those issues

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Originally Posted by Mr Karl

I'm a canadian................we don't have those issues

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No problems with racism or sexism or not a very diverse population? Colder, more frontiersy places tend to be less uptight on certain issues of women's place.

oh, our population is incredibly diverse.....we have huge amounts of immigration............no, canadian issues change like the weather

I don't know. Affirmative Action is such a sticky subject. I personally think the whole system may need some serious re-vamping to be honest. If Affirmative Action IS dismantled, they need to keep a department or organization through which progress can continue to be monitored... and broaden the aspects of what Affirmative Action means to us in the modern age.

For some reason I think it should be ended. Okay, I know I suck at explaining it in english but I'll try.

Getting over the couple centuries old hustle. Cleaning up the closet. Moving forward because future is what matters and not past.

Yes.

i lived and worked for 20 years in a merit based environment... i believe that people should rise or fall based on performance and merit alone... if you want to succeed then be successful... if you are lazy then fail! opportunity is out there for anyone... look at me i served 20 years got a ton of college money and i'm on my way to medical school.

to quote my father:

"you made your bed, now sleep in it... if you want to make it better then do something to make it better, it is no one else's responsibility but yours. life is hard and actions have consequences... "

don't mis-interpret that as being un-supportive, my parents are very supportive, but they never did the work for me, i have made my own way in life since i was 18...

:yeeaaahh:

Interesting that so far this thread seems to fall pretty much on the end affirmative action side. It seems to have passed one state now and is too close to call in the other. I was worried that some people would see the thread differently from how I intended.

if it meant that affirmative action would end, I wish I would have thought of that before I cast my vote. I would have voted for Obama, just to give that chance to make everyone in America truly equal.

Then America would start to heal, we are growing up as nation. I would have took that risk as Republican to better this nation for all. If it would "end" affirmative action. Its hurting the nation, it does nothing but divide the nation

Didn't the Supreme Court say that affirmative action would be not needed, so ended and illegal, in 25 years? Well, 25 from when she said that. I don't remember when she did. So, 2030 something.

I really think that Affirmative Action is racist in it's own right. You're discriminating against white people when you give the job to a black person, just because he's black.

More like you're discriminating against the more qualified person. Or, more like you have no choice b/c you have to do what your gov't tells you to do.

yes.

yes . i think it is safe to do so now, it was useful but it is not as neccesary anymore

I think that rich white Americans like to bitch about how bad they have it more than anyone else in the world.

a company that hires 99 white guys now has to hire one black woman and you say that they are racist against white people. insanity.

for 150 years black people had no rights and made no money for the work they did, then they were systematically discriminated against for another 50 years. Do you honestly believe that there is racial equality in America now? More importantly do you think that it has been or can be achieved through purely "natural" process and without any redistribution efforts by the government? do you really think that it hurts white people more than it benefits blacks?

For all the people against affirmative action, let me ask you this. 50 years ago when segregation was shot down and all the white kids went to the nice schools and all the black kids went to the shitty schools, by reintegrating society it could have meant that a white kid now had to go to a shitty school instead. do you think that was wrong? I know that you want there to be no shitty schools and have everyone go to just the nice ones, but that's not the way it was, and that's not the way it is now.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

for 150 years black people had no rights and made no money for the work they did, then they were systematically discriminated against for another 50 years. Do you honestly believe that there is racial equality in America now? More importantly do you think that it has been or can be achieved through purely "natural" process and without any redistribution efforts by the government? do you really think that it hurts white people more than it benefits blacks?

For all the people against affirmative action, let me ask you this. 50 years ago when segregation was shot down and all the white kids went to the nice schools and all the black kids went to the shitty schools, by reintegrating society it could have meant that a white kid now had to go to a shitty school instead. do you think that was wrong? I know that you want there to be no shitty schools and have everyone go to just the nice ones, but that's not the way it was, and that's not the way it is now.

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As a nation, America basically committed genocide against the Native Americans.

Most good schools in America had a cap on how many Jews they would admit (like maximum 3%) until approximately 50 years ago.

The country put Asians in interment camps well within living memory.

Of those three discriminated-against groups, affirmative action only helps one at all.

A lot of people fail to do business with Blue Blood because they want to talk to a man when it is time to really do business.

There is a lot of injustice and having affirmative action for some just adds to the injustice for others. Bill Cosby's daughter went to my college a year ahead of me and he spoke at her graduation. Do you really think she needed to have bonus points to help her get into a good school to achieve a good life? I understand programs to help the disadvantaged, but not ones based on race.

I, for one, do not want anyone saying golly jeepers look at that girl who is actually sort of doing business work. I want to earn what I have and I want people to know I fucking worked for it.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

for 150 years black people had no rights and made no money for the work they did, then they were systematically discriminated against for another 50 years. Do you honestly believe that there is racial equality in America now? More importantly do you think that it has been or can be achieved through purely "natural" process and without any redistribution efforts by the government? do you really think that it hurts white people more than it benefits blacks?

For all the people against affirmative action, let me ask you this. 50 years ago when segregation was shot down and all the white kids went to the nice schools and all the black kids went to the shitty schools, by reintegrating society it could have meant that a white kid now had to go to a shitty school instead. do you think that was wrong? I know that you want there to be no shitty schools and have everyone go to just the nice ones, but that's not the way it was, and that's not the way it is now.

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PS I don't mean to jump to conclusions here, but you look pretty white and male to me. Everything come easy to you?

uh.

No.

It's too tedious to discuss. Ask your minority friends.

I assume you have some.

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Originally Posted by Buster Friendly

uh.

No.

It's too tedious to discuss. Ask your minority friends.

I assume you have some.

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So you are saying that it is fine to give affirmative action to some minorities who have been discriminated against, but Jews and Asians are not minorities or have not been discriminated against in America somehow now?

If a lot of people here are thinking that maybe the referendums to end affirmative action make sense at this point, then it might be helpful to explain why that is inaccurate thinking.

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Originally Posted by Amelia G

then it might be helpful to explain why that is inaccurate thinking.

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uh.

No.

It's too tedious to discuss. Ask your minority friends.

I assume you have some.

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Originally Posted by Buster Friendly

uh.
No.
It's too tedious to discuss. Ask your minority friends.
I assume you have some.

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Please keep in mind we appreciate and encourage rational logical discussion here, not tonal implied dismissal. If you have a point make it yourself. I'm not sure if there are people who do or do not disagree with whatever point you are making, which makes it hard for people to have their minds changed and/or become enlightened. Some of these sorts of discussions are exercises in debate, sociology, and rationality, not necessarily heated passionate personal convictions, and we should all have the ability to discuss them rationally as such.

I have 'minority friends' who have radically different points of view on the topic

I was talking to a friend, who is black and this very topic came up in the conversation. I saw a little shocked by his answer, to be honest. He wants affirmative action to end, because it isnt what Dr King wanted. We should be judge on our character and merit not the color of our skin. He wants a future for his daughter to be able to go to school and work all on who she is and not the color of her skin. He voted for obama, but it isnt a true victory because most not all blacks voted on the his skin color and not context of his character.


we both agree it should end, otherwise it would divide the country even more because the events in the last 6 days.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

for 150 years black people had no rights and made no money for the work they did, then they were systematically discriminated against for another 50 years. Do you honestly believe that there is racial equality in America now? More importantly do you think that it has been or can be achieved through purely "natural" process and without any redistribution efforts by the government? do you really think that it hurts white people more than it benefits blacks?

For all the people against affirmative action, let me ask you this. 50 years ago when segregation was shot down and all the white kids went to the nice schools and all the black kids went to the shitty schools, by reintegrating society it could have meant that a white kid now had to go to a shitty school instead. do you think that was wrong? I know that you want there to be no shitty schools and have everyone go to just the nice ones, but that's not the way it was, and that's not the way it is now.

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as a kid i was bussed to a mostly black school when i lived in Charleston SC... learned to fight real fast...

success based on performance... that's the way it should be period.

I got into college because of my grades and my achievement. Duke Med wants me because of my grades and achievements... they certainly don't have a quota for folks like me... one of my future classmates that i was competing against for a spot in the school had worse grades than me and some of the others applying but still got in... knocked a straight A honor grad from a good school right off the list... want to know why? call it (and me) what you want to but it is wrong.

The thing is, we are talking about affirmative action like it is some blanket policy across the board.

Private industry and colleges are not required to have diversity unless they recieve federal or (in some cases) state money. Even the ones that do likely do not have to meet as hig a standard as you think.

As far as a meritocracy, this is seldom the case in the US. Being the child of an alumni will get more doors open than being black. This is also true for a lot of high end jobs. If this country was a meritocracy George Bush would be working at a Target and Paris Hilton a low end diner.

In Jr. High i was really pushed to join an excellence program of some sort. I was told I would really fit in there, that it would help me prepare for college. I wondered for many years why my minority friends (latin, black, and the less popular asian countries) were not pushed the same way. Since they were part of the brain patrol they got better grades than me (yah, I was a slacker) and tested as well as me. But for some reason no one told them they would fit in better at the excellerated program.

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"You do not take a person who, for many years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line in a race and then say, 'you are free to compete with all the others', and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.

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Until we really address the problems at the basic levels I say we still need what meager pushes we have. Despite having a black president, racism is far from dead.

Yes I do, but thats because Im sick of people expecting special treatmen just because of some thing that happened hundreds of years before I was born, and I belive people should be treated the same no matter race, religion, gender, sexuality or whatever.
In Australia is a school has an Aboriginal student, they school gets extra money to put towards there education, wich is awesome if they need it, but it can be alot hared for a white student in that same position to get the same help.
People should be helped til the are at the same level as everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Amelia G

PS I don't mean to jump to conclusions here, but you look pretty white and male to me. Everything come easy to you?

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Honestly, No. But I'm not really sure what you are getting at here. are you trying to say that white males don't on average have an easier time in society than the alternative? I'm sure that many of the women on here can attest to how shitty guys have treated them because of their sex. Even something as simple an stark and obvious as one black president and 45 white ones can paint a very clear picture about the racial reality in America.

let's take it in a different direction. There's something that I wanted to talk about earlier, this notion of the merit system.

There are ton of truly bright gifted people that aren't getting into college, not from any lack of personal quality on their part. There just isn't enough room, all the spots for them have been filled up. That is because colleges only have a small number of positions based on merit. The majority of the people that go there are people that fit the first numbered criteria and it's not IQ. It's people that pay for it. Simply by virtue of having money you are reserved a higher level of influence. Personal merit has nothing to do with it. ( I see that CafeMP has beat me to a lot of these points.)

Along with all of your discriminatory examples, there are many many more people that have less sinister but more advantageous influence based on sheer probability.

Society is not fair. It has never been fair. There's nothing we can do about that, that is not the real criteria. But justice is something that requires purpose and I think it's a little bit more in our power to try to achieve that aim. We can't, and maybe we shouldn't even want to, get rid of all the pettiness of society, but we can make strives toward erasing some of it's sinister forms that have been mentioned.

I said that everything hasn't come easy for me and that's the truth, maybe it's because of that that I have faith and like to believe that it's worth taking a chance and making a sacrifice to help someone else get a chance that needs it more than I do.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

Honestly, No. But I'm not really sure what you are getting at here. are you trying to say that white males don't on average have an easier time in society than the alternative? I'm sure that many of the women on here can attest to how shitty guys have treated them because of their sex. Even something as simple an stark and obvious as one black president and 45 white ones can paint a very clear picture about the racial reality in America.

let's take it in a different direction. There's something that I wanted to talk about earlier, this notion of the merit system.

There are ton of truly bright gifted people that aren't getting into college, not from any lack of personal quality on their part. There just isn't enough room, all the spots for them have been filled up. That is because colleges only have a small number of positions based on merit. The majority of the people that go there are people that fit the first numbered criteria and it's not IQ. It's people that pay for it. Simply by virtue of having money you are reserved a higher level of influence. Personal merit has nothing to do with it. ( I see that CafeMP has beat me to a lot of these points.)

Along with all of your discriminatory examples, there are many many more people that have less sinister but more advantageous influence based on sheer probability.

Society is not fair. It has never been fair. There's nothing we can do about that, that is not the real criteria. But justice is something that requires purpose and I think it's a little bit more in our power to try to achieve that aim. We can't, and maybe we shouldn't even want to, get rid of all the pettiness of society, but we can make strives toward erasing some of it's sinister forms that have been mentioned.

I said that everything hasn't come easy for me and that's the truth, maybe it's because of that that I have faith and like to believe that it's worth taking a chance and making a sacrifice to help someone else get a chance that needs it more than I do.

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Colleges do not take ability to pay into account for admissions. Admission is need-blind.

If you get in and you can't pay, you may be expected to go into debt for part of the total, but much of it will just be paid for, and most people do this, and then just get to start their adult life in debt. I think there are a lot of problems with financial aid, not the least of which is that schools have raised their rates to levels they never could, if financial aid did not exist.

Now, if your name is Bush or Pierce or Kennedy or Shriver or Cosby, you may have a little bit of a bonus, just because it may be impossible for the administrators not to notice. Then again, some may overcompensate in the opposite direction. Although many schools will give a slight advantage to legacies, where one's parents went is no guarantee at all. And legacies are the closest thing to the sort of advantage we are talking about.

Basically, unless your daddy is going to buy the school a new football stadium or mention it on national television, money has nothing to do with being accepted to a good school or not.

I'm not sure about that. Do they really give out loans to everyone? I do know there is a big difference between paying in cash and getting a scholarship and being 23 and never having had a job or credit and being 20 grand in debt right off the bat.

that didn't seem like such a good investment to me, when everyone else I knew had their degrees hanging up on the wall above the deep fryer at work. That and the fact that I scored high on all the standardized tests but had a 2.0 GPA because I hated highschool and ditched class 3/4 of the times.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

I'm not sure about that. Do they really give out loans to everyone? I do know there is a big difference between paying in cash and getting a scholarship and being 23 and never having had a job or credit and being 20 grand in debt right off the bat.

that didn't seem like such a good investment to me, when everyone else I knew had their degrees hanging up on the wall above the deep fryer at work. That and the fact that I scored high on all the standardized tests but had a 2.0 GPA because I hated highschool and ditched class 3/4 of the times.

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Ditching class and getting a lower GPA than you are capable of will have an impact on getting in.

Not being able to pay for school, even being pretty unlikely to be able to pay back any loans later, will not stop you from being admitted and won't stop you from getting a loan you can't afford.

As someone whose supposedly prestigious education was for many years just a scary debt hanging over my head, which got me dickall in the way of employment, I'm not sure I wholeheartedly recommend the process. I've definitely worked food service too. Although I did get some really cool things, as a person, out of going to school and sometimes miss it now.

It's a very sticky discussion to be made. In poorer areas, the schools really do mainly suck. Less money is spent on them and because most teachers tend to not like to work in those areas, you tend to not get the most qualified teachers to do the teaching. A majority of these lower class areas are filled with African-Americans, thus they do not get equal education as other middle class and upper class areas get. So, yes, because of this bias they would have a harder time getting into college. I believe education, because not everything is equal, these students should be allowed to get into college easier than most other students. But then the discussion becomes, if they're not educated enough how do they survive once they get into college. Many times they don't because they're not ready to handle the "higher learning". So, when does the "helping" stop?

Other than that, I think affirmative action in all other areas like job opportunity needs to end. You need to be hired and promoted on your merits. Not on the color of your skin.

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Originally Posted by Ajax Knucklebones

It's a very sticky discussion to be made. In poorer areas, the schools really do mainly suck. Less money is spent on them and because most teachers tend to not like to work in those areas, you tend to not get the most qualified teachers to do the teaching. A majority of these lower class areas are filled with African-Americans, thus they do not get equal education as other middle class and upper class areas get. So, yes, because of this bias they would have a harder time getting into college. I believe education, because not everything is equal, these students should be allowed to get into college easier than most other students. But then the discussion becomes, if they're not educated enough how do they survive once they get into college. Many times they don't because they're not ready to handle the "higher learning". So, when does the "helping" stop?

Other than that, I think affirmative action in all other areas like job opportunity needs to end. You need to be hired and promoted on your merits. Not on the color of your skin.

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Most elementary and high school education in America pretty much sucks. It doesn't prepare most students for being adults, other than possibly giving them a taste of what conforming in the workplace might entail. Some of the schools I attended were in some supposedly great school districts for elementary school and I learned almost nothing. I graduated early and had the option to go to Exeter or Andover for a year of private boarding school before heading to college. At the time, their rules were much stupider than my parents' and I didn't think I could stand it, but maybe there would have been more learning there. Some of my classmates were more prepared my frosh year than I was, but I caught up fast.