What do you think of anonymous attacks?

In the American judicial system, the accused has the right to face his or her accuser. On the internet, lots of people post attacks on others anonymously. This makes it very difficult to tell whether someone is good or bad. If I hear a lot of bad stuff about someone, I don't want to be a moron and do business with someone everyone says sucks, but I also don't want to be a moron and assume everyone dislikes someone or something, when really it is one asshole posting a lie under a hundred aliases because of a vendetta.

What do you think of anonymous attacks? How do you try to parse out the reality of a situation?

I can actually weigh in on this one, because sadly I am the target of a lot of attacks.

Now dont get me wrong, some of them have every right to be angry (orders that I was late on, etc), but there have been 90% more positive customers than negative, it's just that the positives hardly ever say anything good about the biz because they have nothing to gripe about and just usually forget or dont get around to it.

The people that are negative want to tell the whole world. On multiple places, with multiple stories. (Damage control takes up a lot of my time sadly)
A lot of people also do not understand how we work. Even when it's posted in big bold letters on everything. Especially the ones who are angry because I didn't mail out their items...within a day of ordering. It takes time to create custom made-to-order items. I'm not a psychic, I do not know what you are going to order so I can get a head start on it. Sheesh...seriously?!
And then they go post about how I am a scam.

We even have the peanut gallery type of people who have had absolutely no dealings with us at all, but see one post about how I am some scam artist, and it snowballs from there just so they can be in agreement..with something to make themselves not feel left out of a witchhunt.

Even after making things right, (aka freebies, apologies, free shipping, refund & STILL send out product) they never really say thanks...nor sorry for starting the initial posts. They are almost 90% never happy with any outcome regardless.

I've had my life threatened, DDOS attacks, random mailing boxes show up at my house that I didnt order, bank hacked and stolen from, everything you can imagine.

The internet can be a great informative place, but that's also the problem.

There's really no "anonymity" to the internet. Everything can be tracked.
Even those proxies that say they don't keep logs... if they don't, their host does.
Either way, it can all be tracked.

As for the people who don't have the balls to own up to their own comments, and can't seem to tear themselves away from the internet long enough to go back to reality, and chill... personally I think they are cowards, and probably should to bed since it will be school time at 7AM.

I think it works both ways. I think anonymous 'attacks' can be like anything, sometimes an angry grudge played out by someone... I think it can also be a positive mob mentality in a strange way... in terms of the kids that have exposed a ********* or two through trolling methods.

In any situation, you must use your own judgment. Frequently, attacks/attention are a red flag to examine a person or a situation. It could be someone who is troubled, dramatic, or simply someone who has vulnerabilities to being a victim.

If someone is not well liked, it is understandable for one to use caution around them, rather than jumping straight to the conclusion they are someone who is just being picked on.

In the least, it is worth investigating and coming to your own conclusion about it, instead of solidifying your first judgment immovably because you've assumed.

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Originally Posted by athenahollow

There's really no "anonymity" to the internet. Everything can be tracked.

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The stupid people can be tracked, but certainly not everyone. There are several well-known methods to prevent back-tracing an IP which are technologically impossible to break, even for folks like the NSA.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaG

How do you try to parse out the reality of a situation?

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I don't think you ever can - it's just a gut feeling thing. It's just as likely that the nice comments are fakes too (think of the fun with Amazon book reviews.. authors flaming rivals and then faking good reviews for their own stuff).

Anonymity is beside the point, I'd say. Validity is never inherent to the speaker, always to the spoken. If an viewpoint that is communicated at you doesn't stand on its own legs (and the extreme majority don't), having a sincere looking face going with it is only deceptive, a factor of (deliberate or not) social manipulation. Mind you, most people process information based on something like 95% social manipulation and only like 5% content, so it may seem confusing - but only by virtue of being habit-breaking.

If someone has a bad reputation not supported by solid hard evidence, find out for yourself. I find that most of these are undeserved or at least oversimplified, regardless of whether it's an anonymous internet hate machine or my real-life friends carrying the torch.

A speaker's anonymity, if anything, clarifies the consideration of whatever viewpoint they're espousing. It eliminates a few bad reasons to value or dismiss what is being said, leaving more of the potentially good ones.

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Originally Posted by Raza

Mind you, most people process information based on something like 95% social manipulation and only like 5% content,

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http://www.ofb.net/~epstein/sl/20030...xnews-lies.jpg

I think its pretty cowardly to be honest. I have an online hater that sends me hate mail on ******* every now and again; I think when she's drunk, because the messages are so stupid. I just ignore her. I'm actually kinda flattered that I could take up so much of someone's time from so far away, lol. (this has been going on for a year.) the funniest part is, she thinks I don't know who she is. I know exactly who it is. I just think its funny she doesn't have the balls to say it to my face.

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Originally Posted by Amelia G

In the American judicial system, the accused has the right to face his or her accuser. On the internet, lots of people post attacks on others anonymously. This makes it very difficult to tell whether someone is good or bad. If I hear a lot of bad stuff about someone, I don't want to be a moron and do business with someone everyone says sucks, but I also don't want to be a moron and assume everyone dislikes someone or something, when really it is one asshole posting a lie under a hundred aliases because of a vendetta.

What do you think of anonymous attacks? How do you try to parse out the reality of a situation?

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I think it depends why the person is choosing to stay anonymous. In some cases it's probably because they know they are giving false information other cases people might just be afraid of backlash that might hurt them but still don't want to let a person/company get away with immoral actions.

For example, awhile back on alt-porn.net the site did a feature on a photographer/site owner and a lot of anonymous negative comments were posted. I'm pretty sure I know one of the models who posted because she told me this horror story about working with this guy. She has never lied to me before and I have worked with her many times and she has been nothing but professional, so I believe the story she told me about this guy, but I assume she posted this anonymously because she didn't want to potentially hurt her career by alienating herself from people who might not believe her.

I don't blame her for doing what she did but it that does make it hard for others outside the situation to tell who is telling the truth. From my experience (I'm sadly worked with a lot of sketchy photographers over the years) if even just a handful of people are complaing about being mistreated then there probably is something to that and it's not just models PMSing.

in my world your anonymous while you watch... but when it is time for work you make sure they know who is responsible... the last thing they see....

own up to your opinions instead of being a coward!

"cowardly".

Such an impotent word.

anonymous attacks are used because they work.

they will continue to be used.

it's sound strategy, "cowardice" or "courage" have nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by LeilaHazlett

I think it depends why the person is choosing to stay anonymous. In some cases it's probably because they know they are giving false information other cases people might just be afraid of backlash that might hurt them but still don't want to let a person/company get away with immoral actions.

For example, awhile back on alt-porn.net the site did a feature on a photographer/site owner and a lot of anonymous negative comments were posted. I'm pretty sure I know one of the models who posted because she told me this horror story about working with this guy. She has never lied to me before and I have worked with her many times and she has been nothing but professional, so I believe the story she told me about this guy, but I assume she posted this anonymously because she didn't want to potentially hurt her career by alienating herself from people who might not believe her.

I don't blame her for doing what she did but it that does make it hard for others outside the situation to tell who is telling the truth. From my experience (I'm sadly worked with a lot of sketchy photographers over the years) if even just a handful of people are complaing about being mistreated then there probably is something to that and it's not just models PMSing.

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I know what situation you are talking about, and I can completely understand why she did this anonymously.

My post was more towards trolls. those who just spend their times anonymously harrassing others for no reason other than to 1. cause an uproar 2. get a rise out of people 3. damage someone's reputation with no real proof that they are doing something wrong, just a bunch of lies.

Buster's spot on - it does work. Even if only a fraction of the people who read the comments are naive enough to take them at face value, the poster has got what they wanted out of it - the ad industry has been using that logic for years by spamming forums. Net-savvy folks see through it by now, but if spamming didn't work a bit of the time, nobody would be doing it.

Not saying it's a good thing, but hypothetically if you wanted to damage someone's reputation, what other options have you got that are as easy and free as attacking them on the Web? Same goes for self-promotion; I know lots of people who've bought stuff from themselves or from relatives on auction sites so they can get a good rating.

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Originally Posted by Buster Friendly

"cowardly".

Such an impotent word.

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not in my world....

i suppose it doesn't work in an internet world... however it doesn't mean that the word is impotent... i would rather be called many things than a coward...

i just got an email from a Nigerian Prince trying to get his money out of Afrika to a safer spot...

to bad coincidentally the name they use (the Nigerian person) is dead....

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Originally Posted by jonny.illuminati

i would rather be called many things than a coward...

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Napoleon once said something to the effect that he'd discovered a strange phenomena, he could get men to fight, and die for him who otherwise wouldn't by simply placing worthless ribbons, and medals on their chests, and calling it "bravery".

I'm not trying to insult you johnny, but words like "honor", "bravery", "cowardice", "honesty", "integrity", "authentic", etc. are words of social manipulation that the unscrupulous use to get people to do things they want.

People who suppose they have some sort of inherent meaning are easily manipulated by those who figure out how to twist those meanings to their advantage.

Why would a person be any more brave for killing the enemies of a rich man for free than they would be if they told the rich man to fuck off, or demanded payment?

I was at a forum where people were discussing Guerrilla Warfare tactics and a few of the posters got all super pissy because the tactics being described were "cowardly". Meaning of course that they would be effective against the people getting upset. The point of the other posters was that it doesn't matter how we feel about these tactics, they're being used, and effectively.

Johnny, I am assuming that you can't be easily manipulated into fighting someone who you have no reason to fight simply by being called a "coward". Especially if that person's opinion isn't worth shit to you, and you'd crush them easily. (I could just be projecting though.)

This world isn't fair, the evil and sociopathic prosper. It ain't "right", or "good", but those are just too more control words.

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Originally Posted by Mindgames

Not saying it's a good thing, but hypothetically if you wanted to damage someone's reputation, what other options have you got that are as easy and free as attacking them on the Web? Same goes for self-promotion; I know lots of people who've bought stuff from themselves or from relatives on auction sites so they can get a good rating.

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This is what I was saying.

As a tactic, if I can cause any damage to my enemy without causing myself any damage or taking on risk why wouldn't I do it?

Similarly if I can boost my own reputation without any loss of face, why wouldn't I do it?

That's the thinking behind the general strategy. There's no moral component to it, it works, people will do it. Our feelings are entirely besides the point.

Buster handin' out wisdom itt.


I do think courage has a meaning that counts as an actual personal virtue. It takes a certain mindset to relativate a kind of consequence you've never faced before and decide to risk it for something you hold dearer. The human mind tends to perceive unfaced threats as abstract and intangible, and inflict them as absolute restrictions on ones behaviour in a fashion that quite exceeds rational self-preservation; the ability to overcome this has endless useful applications.

Still, words like cowardice and bravery hold a lot of rhetorical moral weight, and there's few things as beguiling as empty morality. Not every action intended to avoid an undesired consequence is cowardice, not even when it's about risking another human being's riposte, and especially condemnation of the evasion of a kind of threat one personally thinks they'd be ready to face is easily voiced in haste, without acknowledging that there may be far more relevant pros and cons to the particular course of action.

I don't realy have much to add about the characterization of the phenominon.

But one thing that I wanted to point out is that "facing your accuser" in court only pertains to a crime having been committed. As I've said before on the thread about cyber-bullying, it's not against the law to talk shit to and/or about people in general (although some specific instances apply). whether that is online or to you face or behind your back to your friends and co-workers.

I will say that I think the net gives people not only the opportunity to say what they want, but to be heard on a level that they couldn't be standing on a street corner and yelling, and that as much if not more than anything else is a factor in it.

A couple of years ago there was an actor I was interested in working with.There are many bad things posted about him on the internet but I really admired his work. So I went ahead played 3 degrees of separation and talked to people who really knew him and worked with him .... and they all gave glowing reviews!

I think even in this day of technology, nothing beats talking to real people who you trust. Fuck the trolls who sit on the bum all day and write bad things about people !

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Originally Posted by Nos

A couple of years ago there was an actor I was interested in working with.There are many bad things posted about him on the internet but I really admired his work. So I went ahead played 3 degrees of separation and talked to people who really knew him and worked with him .... and they all gave glowing reviews!

I think even in this day of technology, nothing beats talking to real people who you trust. Fuck the trolls who sit on the bum all day and write bad things about people !

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well the flip side of this of course is occasionally you'll hear negative rumors about folks who EVERYBODY JUST LOVES, LOVES. LOVES!!! and they'll just be quiet little rumors, people who know first hand won't want to say anything. People who've known the person a longtime quickly change the subject whenever their name comes up.

But they get SUUUUUUUUUUUCH gloooooooooowing reviews, from EVERYBODY!

Oh YES, they're THE BEST EVAR!

And then once you've gotten to know them, you find out where the rumors come from and find out that it's much worse than anyone had previously suspected, but because of personal gain, and mutual self interest this person's crimes go unpunished, and covered up, and further if you bring it up, even with people who know what's going on... well... you know how these anonymous attackers are. They must just be jealous of the successful.

And then there's Fox News.

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Originally Posted by Buster Friendly

and further if you bring it up, even with people who know what's going on... well... you know how these anonymous attackers are. They must just be jealous of the successful.

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I actual mean if you bring it up non-anonymously. But whatever.

Just look up the James Randi Blackmail Tapes if you want a few chuckles.

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Originally Posted by Buster Friendly

I actual mean if you bring it up non-anonymously. But whatever.

Just look up the James Randi Blackmail Tapes if you want a few chuckles.

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:1orglaugh check mate

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Originally Posted by Buster Friendly

Napoleon once said something to the effect that he'd discovered a strange phenomena, he could get men to fight, and die for him who otherwise wouldn't by simply placing worthless ribbons, and medals on their chests, and calling it "bravery".

I'm not trying to insult you johnny, but words like "honor", "bravery", "cowardice", "honesty", "integrity", "authentic", etc. are words of social manipulation that the unscrupulous use to get people to do things they want.

People who suppose they have some sort of inherent meaning are easily manipulated by those who figure out how to twist those meanings to their advantage.

Why would a person be any more brave for killing the enemies of a rich man for free than they would be if they told the rich man to fuck off, or demanded payment?

I was at a forum where people were discussing Guerrilla Warfare tactics and a few of the posters got all super pissy because the tactics being described were "cowardly". Meaning of course that they would be effective against the people getting upset. The point of the other posters was that it doesn't matter how we feel about these tactics, they're being used, and effectively.

Johnny, I am assuming that you can't be easily manipulated into fighting someone who you have no reason to fight simply by being called a "coward". Especially if that person's opinion isn't worth shit to you, and you'd crush them easily. (I could just be projecting though.)

This world isn't fair, the evil and sociopathic prosper. It ain't "right", or "good", but those are just too more control words.

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psycho demagogues might be able to manipulate people by using those terms, but that does not mean bravery is fake or honor is trivial. i hate people who make good things seem bad by using them to manipulate everybody.

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Originally Posted by LeilaHazlett

I think it depends why the person is choosing to stay anonymous. In some cases it's probably because they know they are giving false information other cases people might just be afraid of backlash that might hurt them but still don't want to let a person/company get away with immoral actions.

For example, awhile back on alt-porn.net the site did a feature on a photographer/site owner and a lot of anonymous negative comments were posted. I'm pretty sure I know one of the models who posted because she told me this horror story about working with this guy. She has never lied to me before and I have worked with her many times and she has been nothing but professional, so I believe the story she told me about this guy, but I assume she posted this anonymously because she didn't want to potentially hurt her career by alienating herself from people who might not believe her.

I don't blame her for doing what she did but it that does make it hard for others outside the situation to tell who is telling the truth. From my experience (I'm sadly worked with a lot of sketchy photographers over the years) if even just a handful of people are complaing about being mistreated then there probably is something to that and it's not just models PMSing.

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Seems like nobody would believe an anonymous attack and she is hurting other models by not being truthful about who she is.

I think it is rather a cowardly thing to post an anonymous attack online. If I receive an anonymous negative comment, that tells me that whoever posted it doesn't have the guts to tell me how they really feel to my face.

Never... NEVER take the internet seriously. It's much easier to launch a smear campaign on the internet then it is to get the truth. Nature of the digital beast.

I always confront people to get to the bottom of things and those on the internet posting anonymously are by simple proxy, invalidating their attack. If it really means something, one will stand up for it and put their name behind it.

p.s. - I hate brussel sprouts... more the alien mother stalk. It mocks me.

That is all.

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Originally Posted by Buster Friendly

"cowardly".

Such an impotent word.

anonymous attacks are used because they work.

they will continue to be used.

it's sound strategy, "cowardice" or "courage" have nothing to do with it.

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"Cowardly" is only an impotent word to someone who has not lived a life of courage. Not courage as an absence of fear, but having the fortitude to push froward despite that fear. When running away or avoiding a life-threatening situation is not an option, you find out a lot about the true meaning of words like "courage" and "cowardly." Sometimes you find out a person you thought was rock solid leaves you hanging out...your thoughts about that person as a coward are anything but impotent.

Even though that is a different thing than not putting your name on an internet communique, I still have to register my objection to that statement.

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Originally Posted by thegreendevil76

Even though that is a different thing than not putting your name on an internet communique, I still have to register my objection to that statement.

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Register all the complaints you want.

It doesn't change the way the world works.

You can't control some people by calling them names.

(On the other hand there are others you can I suppose.)

I remember being 4 years old, and vaguely disturbed by the fact that people didn't act the way I thought they should too.

take everything with a pinch of salt. always be prepared for an exit strategy (just had to do this recently), and trust is earned