Would you be cool with greater police powers so long as the crime rate went down?

Would you be cool with greater police powers so long as the crime rate went down?

Fuck no. The fact that I disagree with most of the laws that define 'crime' renders rates quite meaningless, and law enforcement itself predominantly undesirable. Effectiveness is only as valuable as your purposes.

Let me preface my answer by saying that I value civil liberties as ensrined in our Constitution. These rights are designed to ensure that we can enjoy a peaceful life with minimal Government intrusion. However, as any 8th grade civics teacher will tell you, the Constitution was designed to be a fluid document that could be updated to accommodate changes in society. For example, the Second Amendment states that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, yet we reasonably limit the everyday citizen's access to things like .50 caliber machine guns, mortars, nuclear warheads, etc.

I believe we need to be watchful of Government power, but there are some expansions of police power that I would strongly support.

1) I think the police should have the power to search public housing projects without a warrant. If people want to suckle off the taxpayer's teat, then they should have to agree to some intrusions by the civilian authorities. One of the problems with policing housing projects is the speed at which evidence and wanted persons can disappear. Let's say you have a shooting and witnesses see the suspect flee into cousin Ray-Ray's apartment. The current procedure is to secure a perimeter around the house while officers meet with a judge to apply for a search warrant. The warrant process is a huge pain in the ass and takes a long time. By the time the warrant is issued and executed, the shooter no longer has any GSR, all the dope in the house has gone down the shitter, the suspect has changed clothing (and maybe hairstyle) to stymie witness identification and has called 20 of his friends to the scene to swear that he was with them all night until just before the po-lice arrived. The good people that live in public housing live in abject fear of the dope dealers and gang members. They are afraid to cooperate openly with the police (and despite what rap lyrics would have you believe, there are many good people in "ghetto" areas and most of them support the police). I don't personally care to have unlimited powers, but the good people in those neighborhoods deserve to live in safety just as much as you and I do. For them, the police should have this power.

2) The Fourth Ammendment protects against unreasonable search and seizure. With that in mind, I do not think it is unreasonable for the police to be granted the power to conduct searches of habitual offenders without consent. The simple fact is that most crimes are committed by a relatively small segment of the population who rob, ****, murder, and steal every day. They do this because they have ABSOLUTELY no qualms about victimizing others as long as they get what they want. Once someone has been repeatedly convicted of certain offenses, the courts shouls issue an order stripping them of their Fourth Ammendment protections. If you see Johnny Dirtbag walking down the street at 0300 hours and he has multiple convictions for selling dope, burgalry, robbery, etc. the police should be able to search him and his effects for guns, drugs, burglary tools, fruits of a crime, etc. and take him forthwith to the jail. This would drop the crime rate significantly as the public order crime arrests in NYC under Giulliani helped lower that city's crime rate by 29% across the board. The idea behind that was to arrest bad guys for minor offenses (such as jumping subway turnstyles) and keep them off the street and unable to commit more serious crimes. If you can ID that small segment of the population that is committing most of the crime and stay up their collective asses they will have only two choices...stop committing crimes, or get arrested constantly.

Some people balk at restricting 4th Ammendment rights, but we already do it. Felons are prevented from possessing firearms, from voting, from holding certain offices, etc. Does searching someone who has proven themself, through their OWN actions, to be a habitual criminal really constitute an unreasonable search? I don't think so.

We live in a time when there are issues that the founding fathers never could have anticipated and we need to adjust for modern problems. The simple fact is that the police are on the street everyday to look out for the interests of law-abiding citizens and to stop the actions of criminals. Is it too much to ask that our laws reflect the same values? As it stands now, most legal protections serve to restrict the rights of the very people that they should be protecting. A decent person in the ghetto has little chance to enjoy his rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not because of the actions of an oppressive Government, but because of the depredations of criminals. Society owes it to those people to give the police the power to ensure their ability to exercise those very rights.

Greater police power only results in escalation. It doesn't work like it does in Sim City, where you can stick a P.D. on every block and build yourself a crime-free utopia. In the real world, greater opposition would only push dedicated criminals to improve their own weapons and methods. The crime rate itself would ultimately either increase or stay the same... or corruption would take root in the overpowered police department, and the cops would become the new criminals.

Yeah, I am of the opinion that reducing crime starts with education, jobs, etc. You have to fix the problems that cause people to become criminals in the first place. So even though I am not totally against more police, I think that the money would be much better spent on education, etc... If you have the choice between being a criminal, or having a great job that paid six figures per year, most people would pick the job. The reason criminals don't choose to work, is because they don't have the skills and the education to get that six-figure job.

Yeah, prevent is the way to go.

greater police powers have made the police as bad as thieves since they have the color of law on their side

I'm less in favor of "greater police powers" than I am in favor of "better police training", and more effective policing programs.

i think sherriff joe arpaio out here has shown us out here exactly how much power is too much power to have.he started out as a dea agent and ended up
where he is now,

bending the rules on prostitution stings to allow his officers to engage in minor touching and disrobing to get a bust,

trumping charges on celebrities (some of the charges dmx was booked on are ridiculous.),

arresting the topheads of a free media press newspaper for printing articles about a land property scheme both he and maricopa counties district attorney are involved in which btw are public knowledge and available for anyuone to see them not to mention bugging the new times (thats the paper i was talking about) website with tracking cookies to track people who visit the newtimes webstie and where they go after that.

oh! and not to mention his abuse of power with rivals who run against him during election season-like the blatantly made up story about the last guy who ran against him being a registered sex offender or when he had a guy named "joe arizona" arrested for impersonating an officer by going to a halloween party in a fake sheriff's shirt and a pair of boxers that read 'i love joe" because he was the spokesman for a proposition that was goign to open up casino licenses to the entire state rather than keeping it on the reservations out here which he supported

and ofcourse, his "crime suppression sweeps" (now being investigated by the aclu lawfirm backed by the federal government) which he conducts in densly populated latino neighborhoods and occassionally at places the state hires out when they try to cut down on his power. the guy shut down waterworld for almost an entire summer cus of that crap an yet he still managed to let a very dangerous child rapist slip out of his fingers from the courthouse where he was awaiting a second life sentence for gettign a nine yeasr old girl knocked up after getting a twelve year old knocked up.
yeah guy just walked out of the courthouse noone even stopped him.

some law enforcement agencies can barely handle the power they have as it is, i dont think we're ready for law enforcement oficer shaving gestappo-esque powers behind them.

More power=abuse of power.

People get on trips, ya know?

I think society needs to be reorganized in order to get crime rate down. Theres a lot of things I could go into detail about..on how to improve the system, but that would take forever. I just think some of the laws in place at the current time are unnecessary and actually exacerbate the situation. More police control could possibly lead to a police state (I think we're headed there anyway, but thats another thread altogether). Like TheDeathKnight said, jobs and education is the key. I also believe there exists a certain institutionalized racism which keeps minorities down and higher crime rates within their populations. Maybe if the government focused on solving those problems there would not be a need for more police control.

I just dont think its a good idea.

I actually have no need to care

I agree that a good foundation prevents crime more than delegating more public funds away from preventative measures and into administering more fear-of-jail.
Put that money into teaching people how to be productive members of society...or how to make that choice.

Eww, productive members of society. =/

How about just not outlawing so many things people may reasonably want to do?

Crime will not go down with stronger police. The crime rate will only be reduced when soceity is given an overhaul. There are too many things to list that need to be fixed. Also, in order for an act to be a crime, it needs to be defined as something that is objectively detrimental. Stealing, ****, murder, assault, drunk driving, etc. are all crimes that can have obviously detrimental impacts. Those things should be illegal. Prostitution in and of itself should be legal because the only reason it is illegal is because it is too hard for the IRS to keep track of freelance prostitutes. That way, sex workers could get proper help if they were *****. **** is ****. Even if you are a sex worker, you deserve to be protected by the law, which would be even easier if prostitution were legalized.

I could go on about how laws should be based on objective detriments and not morality, racial and gender biases, or subjective infractions, but I will stop and simply say that the penalties need to be more strict. Xavia and I watch tons of shows on Tru TV where murderers and rapists will either get minimal prison sentences or be let out on parole way too early. It's ridiculous.

So, maybe in a soceity that actually had a decent law system comprised of people who didn't abuse their power, then, yes I would not mind stronger police. But, this world, especially America, is a far cry away from any sort of hospitable society. This soceity would also have to discourage people from leeching off the system. That is just counter productive.

I couldn't agree more with many of you about the necessity of improving jobs, education, mental health services, etc. as a means of reducing crime. A good society is like a chair and it needs each of these "legs" to be steady. Unfortunately, in many areas (like where I live/work) there are very few services for addicts and mental patients, the schools are crap, and there are fewer and fewer jobs every day. That leaves the police as the only remaing leg to handle the fallout from these other neglected areas.

As far as your fantasies about out of control power hungry cops...you should stop watching so much TV and really ponder what it is like to have that kind of responsibility...to face the dangers of working on the streets, and to have to run into bad situations that every other sane person runs away from. There is no retreat for cops when shit goes really bad and someone has to have the balls to swing a stick on behalf of people who can't do it themselves. If you think you can do a better job than the cops out there, go ahead and turn in an application and do the job. Though I can just about guarantee that once you go to the funerals of a few friends and see some of the awful shit that cops deal with all the time, you will do it the EXACT same way they do it. It's not about power, it's about going home alive at the end of your shift.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
-- George Orwell

Something to think about while you are sitting in safety in front of your computer taking the sacrifices of law enforcement officers for granted.

I think that we need to upgrade the whole chair, yes the schools may be crap, make them better, the police may not have enough members, give them more. But the main thing stopping these thing from happening is money. I know out here in Australia private schools get a shitload more money than public schools in both schools fees and government funding. At my schools our agriculture department was self funded, while due to the actions of a few who thought it was fun to regularly vandalize the toilets we had money taken from sports, mucis and even science. But the stupid thing is that those responsible where only given a slap on the wrist, then let go to do it again.
The main point is that the schools had to cut down on different areas to fix toilets that where fucked up buy a group of 7 kids.
So in the larger world if more money is spent on things like schools than less will have to be spent on the police, woudnt that go a long way to solving the crime problem?

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Originally Posted by thegreendevil76

Though I can just about guarantee that once you go to the funerals of a few friends and see some of the awful shit that cops deal with all the time, you will do it the EXACT same way they do it.

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Having to deal with the worst shit of society week in, and week out would get old fast.

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Originally Posted by thegreendevil76

As far as your fantasies about out of control power hungry cops...you should stop watching so much TV and really ponder what it is like to have that kind of responsibility...to face the dangers of working on the streets, and to have to run into bad situations that every other sane person runs away from. There is no retreat for cops when shit goes really bad and someone has to have the balls to swing a stick on behalf of people who can't do it themselves. If you think you can do a better job than the cops out there, go ahead and turn in an application and do the job. Though I can just about guarantee that once you go to the funerals of a few friends and see some of the awful shit that cops deal with all the time, you will do it the EXACT same way they do it. It's not about power, it's about going home alive at the end of your shift...Something to think about while you are sitting in safety in front of your computer taking the sacrifices of law enforcement officers for granted.

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I disagree almost entirely with this post. There is a difference between using lethal force and abusing power. In fact, after all those TV shows I watch, I think MORE deadly force should be used. And what's with saving criminals if they get shot or serioulsy hurt? That is stupid.

What I am talking about is the police acting tough because they have a uniform. There are plenty of cops out there who let the authority go to their heads. Yes, staying alive is good and I understand the pressure they must endure. But that is no excuse to be corrupt or utterly arrogant. Plus, a lot of cops, especially the males, live by this ridiculous macho mentality. Fortunately, there are people who actually join law enforcemet to protect the common person because they actually care.

http://www.explosm.net/comics/134/
I dont know if we need ore or less of this lol

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Originally Posted by Valerian Reign

I disagree almost entirely with this post. There is a difference between using lethal force and abusing power. In fact, after all those TV shows I watch, I think MORE deadly force should be used. And what's with saving criminals if they get shot or serioulsy hurt? That is stupid.

What I am talking about is the police acting tough because they have a uniform. There are plenty of cops out there who let the authority go to their heads. Yes, staying alive is good and I understand the pressure they must endure. But that is no excuse to be corrupt or utterly arrogant. Plus, a lot of cops, especially the males, live by this ridiculous macho mentality. Fortunately, there are people who actually join law enforcemet to protect the common person because they actually care.

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Yeah, except that most criminals take kindness for weakness. If you are a cop and you show weakness on the street, you are not only ineffective and a danger to yourself, you have just made life harder for the next cop who has to deal with the shithead who punked you out. Now that asshole will think he can get away with that shit every time he encounters the police.

I would somewhat disagree with the arrogance thing. A street cop's attitude is formed by a constant threat of danger while on duty. Whether that danger is from an assault/battery, gunshot, stabbing, car crash, or just someone fucking with your food at the drive through, it is real and it is omnipresent in the cop's mind. It is kind of like paranoia, but there really ARE people out to get you:) ! The problem is that you don't know which ones are going to do some crazy shit so you remain detatched and don't trust people (other than brother/sister officers). This is usually taken as being aloof or "arrogant." Then again there are cops who come accross as arrogant because think they are better than other people...and just because it's true is no reason to be a dick! :D

Corruption is a totally different story. If a cop is corrupt, gets caught lying, commits crimes, etc. he/she SHOULD be fired, charged criminally (if applicable), and prevented from ever returning to the profession again. Fortunately, almost all departments follow this and most states will not certify an officer if any of those conditions occurred. Cops are the sheepdogs and if they turn on the flock they are put down (figuratively, of course).

Coal miners have really dangerous jobs too, but they aren't aloud to knock people around.

Truth is time and time again, US law enforcement has shown it cannot be trusted with the power it has. We keep hearing that it is a few bad apples, no matter how institutionalized the corruption becomes.

You can fight against a criminal. Youwon't always win but if you fight a cop you will always lose.

Every police power given should come with a lot more oversight regardless of it's assumed impact on crime.

But you have to think, is the coal out to get you? Cops may find people will give them a hard time because they are doing what they believe is the right thing to do, while being faced with a never ending problem

My knee-jerk response is No.
I do admit, though, that when I'm the focus of the crime in question, I'm happy to see a cop.
Anyone from the Bay Area know Goth Cop Loki?

the famous answer:
"Fuck Tha Police!!"

They don't need any more power.

The large majority of cops I have ever met or had to deal with are arrogant pissants. They act like they are the toughest shit to walk the face of the earth. They get to act like complete assholes because they are wearing a badge and gun. None of em would even consider losing the badge and the gun to fight man to man, hand to hand.

Now I have dealt with a couple, literally, of cops that were good people, but the majority of them can go suck their service pistols.

I think you do have some decent responses, Green Devil.

Still, there are some definitely wrong things with the system. Let's look at prostitution for example. In some states, it is okay for the police to sleep with a whore and then turn her in. That law is corrupt. I know that sex working is illegal, but that is just ridiculous. Also, they can take jewelry from people and never give it back. They can even sell it on websites that are designed like EBay.

Plus, a lot of cops will not give alternative people the time of day, even if there is something seriously wrong. Sometimes, cops will even harass alternative people that aren't even doing anything illegal.

Most people are not out to get cops. most people are not a threat to cops. Treating everyone like criminals because a few want to do you harm is more than asinine. Your average joe is at more risk of violence from criminals than cops, Average joe has no gun, no badge and no law agency that assumes by default that what joe did was correct.

I find it funny that we hold our soldiers to a higher standard. We have standardized training, additional rules and an entire second justice system that allows offenders in the military to be prosecuted twice.

But cops we put extra protections in for.

Yeah coal ain't out to kill you, but the mines are more dangerous than the streets.

But we are straying from my original point, get law enforcement to be a lot more responsible with the powers they have before even considering giving them more.

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Originally Posted by Cafe_Post_Mortem

Most people are not out to get cops. most people are not a threat to cops. Treating everyone like criminals because a few want to do you harm is more than asinine. Your average joe is at more risk of violence from criminals than cops, Average joe has no gun, no badge and no law agency that assumes by default that what joe did was correct."

True, most people are not out to get cops, but if it was your life on the line I bet you would not be so cavalier about treating everyone as harmless. All it takes is one crazy/desperate person to end your life. I have watched four coworkers lowered into the ground after being killed in the line of duty by the felonious actions of "average Joes" (three murdered by gunfire, one killed by a drunk driver). I myself have been shot, kicked, punched, bitten, and spit on. It's no fucking joke out there. I do not treat everyone like a criminal, but I'm sure as hell not going to rush up to everyone like they are my best buddy.

I also don't forget that I work for the public, by which I mean that I work for the public interest and I am not a slave to the immediate desires of each citizen. That means that when you walk up to a cop and say some stupid shit like "You work for me" or "I pay your salary", please realize how insulting that is to their professionalism and accept their sincere invitation to go fuck yourself:) .

"I find it funny that we hold our soldiers to a higher standard. We have standardized training, additional rules and an entire second justice system that allows offenders in the military to be prosecuted twice.

But cops we put extra protections in for."

In what world are soldiers held to a higher standard? I have nothing but respect for soldiers, but are you really trying to imply that soldiers in combat do not get into some really fucked up shit? That there is no covering for questionable actions in combat zones? I understand why it happens. Under extreme stress your mind can get pretty twisted up, which is why I am willing to accept that soldiers should be treated with some degree of leniency when their actions are examined by people who have NO IDEA what they have been through and demand that they pay for their "crimes." I'm surprised you haven't discovered this for yourself (if I'm right in assuming you are a combat veteran?).

Cops also have standardized training covering law, ethics, etc. that is far more in-depth than anything offered in the military. Police officers are under far more scrutiny than soldiers because there is video everywhere here and people will exploit that to their own uses. Most people are less concerned with "crimes" perpetrated by soldiers in distant lands than when they see video of a cop using force to get a subject to comply.

Cops are subject to internal discipline, administraive punishments from whatever agency certifies officers in their state, prosecution under state law, prosecution under federal law, and civil proceedings. The officers involved in the Rodney King incident were tried twice (in state court AND in federal court) so I'm not really sure what you're talking about there

"Yeah coal ain't out to kill you, but the mines are more dangerous than the streets."

I would disagree with this statement and I don't think it is a valid comparison. I just don't have the energy right now to get in to why this is such an ignorant thing to say...maybe tomorrow.

'But we are straying from my original point, get law enforcement to be a lot more responsible with the powers they have before even considering giving them more.

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Fair enough, but many of the complaints I've seen here are really more properly aimed at other parts of "the (dreaded) system" like the courts, who handle trying and sentencing (be it too light or too severe for your sensibilities), or the legislature which creates the laws. If you want to smoke weed, don't bitch about the cops who arrest you...push the legislature to make it legal.

I'll just wrap this up by again inviting anyone who thinks they know how to be cops better than the men and women who are out there to pick up an application and work the streets yourselves. That's what I did when I was a malcontented young punk rocker and now I see the light. I'll tell you from experience that it is easy to sit in the safety of your home and complain from the sidelines, but it is an entirely different thing to actually carry responsibility for the safety of others. I wish you nothing but good luck and hope you can stay safe long enough to realize what's really going on out there.

Sorry, I'm still muddling through this program so you guys will have to read through the above post to find responses to Cafe_post_mortem's comments. Apologies to C_P_M for making it look like my comments were part of his original post.

Maybe not as much power, but more Organized for effectiveness. The way it is the US, seem cluster fuck.... Why have local, county and state, It should be all state. no local nor country. Not a National police force, but more on the state only each state would have the right to choice how they would have it. Not the feds...Power of state choice.