How do you identify, or not identify? I realise this is a rather personal question, so feel free to not answer if you don't want to. For everyone that wishes to participate, please do not flame others for thier beliefs, or thier law? Thereof.
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How do you identify, or not identify? I realise this is a rather personal question, so feel free to not answer if you don't want to. For everyone that wishes to participate, please do not flame others for thier beliefs, or thier law? Thereof.
Sorry, that's supposed to say "lack thereof". I missed the edit cut off time because I got a call mid edit.
Anyway, Ill go first.
I read about eastern religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism a lot, and I really love the philosophies behind them. However, I also
really identify with paganism as well, and actually celebrate those holidays.
I guess it could seem like an odd combination to some, but it makes sense to me, which is really all that matters...
I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say.
Namaste~
V.
I worship the sun. It kinda keeps things going you know? I'm not into any specific religions or anything but I am a big believer in karma.
I'm a very critical thinker; those ideas that are tangible and verifiable enough to convince me generally don't get called spiritual anymore. I'm also far too narcissistic to worship anything external.
I do have some fairly unconventional ideas about psychology though, and tricks to apply these for better living that contemporary science would sneer at. That's about as far as I range from the scientific dogma; somewhat postmodern, but never supernatural.
I prefer not to believe or disbelieve in things without a good serving of justification. With tartare sauce.
I, however, am most certainly not agnostic. I'm respectful to things until I'm given a reason not to be. An ideal that catalyses as much of the societal bullshit that I hate as it can will surely do it's best to rub me the wrong way.
Agnostics are disrespectful?
I don't think he's saying that. And even if he is, this is a sharing thread, not an arguing thread. I'll be real pissed of this turns into a theology or non-theology argument. Please stick to my original post; there is a typo correction in my second post.... or start another thread to argue and call someone out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raza
I was christian, then pagan, out of family pressure reluctantly went back to christianity, moved on from there to agnosticism, and am now beginning to settle quite comfortably into atheism. In the end science to me is more interesting than any religion out there, and makes a hell of a lot more sense to me.
I also have some beef with agnostics, but I don't really mind being called one. To me an agnostic is usually a christian that can't make up their mind, and also someone who accepts the "argument" that something should be assumed to be true if it cannot be disproven- on the basis of that fact alone (see: Intelligent Design).
I say that I don't object to being called that because I believe in having an open mind when it comes to belief and I'll consider any idea that can be reasonably explained (the criteria for reasonable being my own at the time). I also know that experience is almost entirely subjective on the part of the participant and so if someone thinks that it is real, then it is real to them, even if it isn't to everyone else.
My spiritual concerns are not so much about "Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going?", but questions about the way that "here" operates, assuming that we are there.
An interesting idea to me is the Gaia theory, which is that the earth is a single ecosystem and that all lifeforms are therefor connected to each others individual actions in their environments; a sort of ecological relativism. That brings me to think about, if it's true, what role individual action plays in natural evolution and biodiversity. In particular whether human design-science can be compatible with Earth-design science.
Another thing that I wonder about is Shamanic visions. Under certain psychological conditions people have experienced communication with what can be described as outside entities. This is been extensively documented and you can pretty much take it for a fact, regardless of interpretation of it's meaning. The questions that it arises is whether there really is an "outside" cosnciousness (whatever that means), whether there is an "inside" consciousness that we are not normally aware of, or whether this is a way to expand our senses beyond the subjective I mentioned earlier.
As you can see I don't really have any truths, answers or dogmas that I believe in, just questions and things I think about.
all the belief systems work, I think they're all obsolete and inneficient ways of expressing basic principles for living ones life, but people don't want the expense of an upgrade because they actually fail to really see the value.................
hmmm, lost my train of thought
as a pagan whose not very well formed belief ssystem is a mismash of ideas from many other systems, i am most interested in the beliefs or ideas that they share or have in common. in some ways it is a result of my classes in comparative mythology. the one thing that really bugs me though is when the different groups decide they are the one and only True or correct path. and the hostilities that result. it sounds trite to ask why we can't all just get along peacefully, but its true. just because we follow a different path doesnt mean its the wrong path, that we should be converted, or should be exterminated for believing in something different.
Not arguing; I'm asking because I find it a peculiar position and wondered if it was really what he meant. I don't identify as agnostic, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by VoltaireBlue
I don't really identify as theist or atheist. I believe symbolism and ritual to be powerful for their own sake. I would maintain that we ultimately define our own meaning to life (or non-meaning). Ultimately, this puts me in the existential camp. Aspects of sufism and taoism are of particular interest to me.
I didn't have a religious upbringing, so I decided to research all the religions of the world, and decide if they have merit. I generally think they are all full of shit. No disrespect intended to the believers out there. Believe whatever you like. But if you look at the history of all religions, you will see that it's all just people looking for answers, in the face of a scary world. When people confront life, and death, they want answers. So religions were a way to give people comfort. If they were scared of thunder, the priests would explain that it's Thor or Zeus tossing some lightning bolts because they are angry. If you are scared to die, you can think that there is a heaven or valhalla waiting for you. It's just because people are weak and scared, and maybe they should be. Dying is scary. Life is confusing. So religions give you answers. But I generally think most of it is made up. Even if you say some aliens came and started life on earth, which is possible, it still does not mean we aren't just animals in an experiment. It doesn't mean we have a soul or anything like that. I still never tell people that what they believe is not true. Because it could be. Who knows? I just wish people would stop acting like they do know, when they honestly don't. Unless you've seen god, or been to heaven, then you are just having faith and hope that those things exist. Because you don't REALLY know. Not until you die. So I wish people would stop acting like they have the only answer, and the only truth. Because no one really knows for sure.
I do like Taoism.
But that's more of a philosophy than a religion.
philosophies do make more sense than religion.........and it is a much better path to spirituality than joining a club
Is Shamanic visons just supposed to be attributed to Shamans or to any person, under psychological conditions?
You can have visions through drugs, through sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, starvation, etc. Visions are not solely in the realm of religious experiences. If you put your brain and body into an extreme state, you will see stuff. It's no different from dreams. Dreams can be pretty trippy. But it's just your brain drifting out of control while you rest. Visions are dreams while you are awake.
One thing I like about philosophy, is that it deals with your current life.
I'd rather spend my spiritual time on how to deal with life, and self-improvement, rather than worrying about life after death. We know for sure that we are alive, and will live one lifetime here on earth. So you have maybe 100 years if you are very lucky. So I'd rather try to make them the best 100 years I can, rather than worrying about what happens after... If there is an afterlife, or reincarnation, great. I'll see it when I get there. But it's not guaranteed. But your life is real. So make the best out of it.
Also shamanic visions are intentional and usually for religious purpose, that is the main (or possibly only) distinction between just seeing crazy shit.
You can't see crazy shit for religious purposes?
When I drop acid I've got the 'intentional' bit covered. What's the real difference towards spiritual significance?
I'm asking.
when you let someone elses definition of your own crazy shit into your head that's accepting religion................basicaly
Not to get the topic entirely on this subject, and I'm by no means the person who has the answers, but in response to your specific question Raza, I'd say there was no real difference.
Some cultures consider such visions to be an integral part of their spiritual experience, indeed some see it as the only way to have a genuine spiritual experience, and this is part of their society and their traditions and it is important for a person who is used to dealing with these things (a shaman) to pass on that knowledge to others.
I don't romanticize the "noble savage" and this, as in many other aspects of American indigenous cultures, I find to be too authoritarian of a viewpoint, as Mr. Karl says. I'd encourage people to find their own meaning in whatever they do, but you can also learn a lot about your own experience by relating it to others, so that is important to understanding too.
That sounds reasonable. You talked earlier about these shamans communicating with 'outside entities', though - that or an inside consciousness or accessing a collective perception of some sort?
When I'm hallucinating I do none of those things, but I can see where the idea might come from. Sensations of being part of a greater whole stem from the suppression of the psychological mechanics of identity, and the large and specific changes in currently stimulated neuroreceptors add weird 'filters' to perception (making it more subjective if anything, since your mind will fill in the blanks with what it knows) and create a strongly skewed balance of modes of thinking (things like meta-thinking, critical thinking, creative thinking, religious thinking, social (dis)connective thinking and such all seem to have their own triggers, which are normally balanced against each other to compose your personality - I'm not sure about the categories exactly) that will get you to see the world or your own mind from a different perspective - often much more different than that of another human being. Anthropomorphisms are more likely with some psychedelics than others, but are probably added mostly in hindsight - psychedelic communications are less like sitting opposite someone and having a conversation and more like, I dunno, running around in a MMORPG and switching the channel of the chat, suddenly giving you access to a new layer of sensory input that had always been happening simultaneously with what you did hear or see, but that you weren't at that time tuned in to - and in which your own contributions appear displaced, uniformly alongside those of others.
Often, as in dreams, a critical look will reveal that there is no sensory experience at all and whatever you're experiencing consists entirely of meaning in your own head being projected on senses by habit of form - like when you dream of reading a book and realize that you can't actually see the letters, and try to re-read the passage only to find that the story in your head has moved on and the same illegible sentence 'on paper' is now communicating something different to you.
Either way, I wouldn't bet on them accessing anything but different parts of their own minds. Which is an extremely neat thing to do once in a while, mind you.
Maybe the aliens just don't want to talk to you Raza :pbbt: :ufo:
True, I'd probably just argue with them.
It's either that or I just don't want to share credit for my insanity.
just remember that you are not the insane one. they are!
I live, therefore I am.
amen
Very impressive responses and certainly thought provoking. I haven't considered spirituality for some time. As I read this thread it makes me see how I have lost that part of my life. I have no belief system, however, I certainly respect the right to choose and practice as one sees fit. Maybe thats how I view spirituality..... freedom of choice.
Hrmm, interesting read. I was raised a Christian for most of my life but I've since become an Atheist but. I'm also a believer in Karma. What I've found weird is that while I was an x-tian I didn't really have any kind of fear. Since I've become an Atheist a lot of the fears I had as a young child have come back in full swing and I'm currently having waking visions of gigantic bugs in shadows. I originally thought that it was just flies/roaches landing on some of the many light sources in my room but once I eliminated the light sources the shadows would still appear on my walls at impossible angles. (off topic) but I just wanted to share that. I honestly agree with Deathknight about the religions providing comfort thing. When it comes down to just believing in myself and the people around me my view of the world has gotten a lot scarier. It's probably just my own mental weakness rearing its ugly head but eh, just rambling here.
I wasn't raised religious at all, and I don't believe in a "god" in a heaven/hell kinda way. I also think organized religions are pretty controlling & lame. Although, I've had a couple spooky/strange experiences which I can't explain. I believe in sidereal astrology, tarot & mysticism. I think there is something going on. Energy/Focusing Energy kinda thing.
For my 30th birthday, as a gift I got an astrology reading with a really amazing astrologer. It was a two hour reading that he recorded on tape and gave to me. It is pretty eerie to go back and listen to the tapes because he is really accurate with dates and pretty specific events. It gives me chills. In fact I'm due for a solar return reading.
astrology's interesting.....all math....unfortunately I suck at math
I have no gods, no spirits, no pixies, no karma, no heaven, no hel, no olympus... its just me and the rest of nature... and I like it that way. (Comming from and exmormon, expagan and exwitch)
Kinda outed myself with my username.
Don't talk about that kind of thing unless asked. Especially in forums like this one, don't fear me y'all.