Freedom? What's That?

By now I'm sure many of you heard or read about that article where H.S. students didn't understand or know what the First Amendment is or does.

Here's The Article

Now before some of you go on giant rants about the U.S. government and what not...STOP...make another thread about that. That's not the focus here. This is about HIGH SCHOOL.

I wasen't all that shocked about the results because the school I went to had a U.S. History teacher who basicly said "You have no rights until you're 18". He was the most cliche stereotype of a white conservative teacher in terms of LOOKS...but he was quite a good teacher all in all. He really put effort into making you understand things. During the French Revolution section he brought in an 8 foot tall guillotine and we got a chance to divide in groups and execute fellow students....we had to give reasons...I was killed for being quiet and unfriendly...needless to say that spawned a rather nasty backlash but that's another issue entirely.

However that was pretty much the last time I ran into a teacher who discussed or raised the issue of what rights we had in this country. Did your H.S. teachers discuss and raise them with you? Did you understand them?

One thing that really bugged me was the prison like atmosphere so many High Schools started to have in the mid 90's and on. It can feel as though what rights you do have are really not put to use in H.S. so can you really blame students for not understanding the first amendment when it's not practiced in schools? Between censorship, dress codes, school rules and regulations, it can feel like you are under some opressive regime instead of a school administration. At least that's how my school felt.

How about yours? Did it feel like they tried to teach you about your rights or simply took them away and gave you lip service about them?

my goverment/economics teacher was prety good at explaining all of that mostly stuff like freedom of speach dosent mean that you can go around making shit up or how the 2nd amendment dosent give you the right to have a fully automatic assault riffle with armor piercing bullets

my teachers ,sucked.....oftern they'd just talk to kids or give you nine tons of worksheets,and say"do it" and shut up or you get suspended.............had one good math teacher,a cool ass sculpture teacher ,and that's pretty much it..........

Public Schools in the US are a travesty. I think the rights you keep are those you exert. I feel sorry for those kids.

Don't it always seem to go, That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone - Joni Mitchell

OEC

Ugh... don't even get me started on that article... it really sickens me. :(

I honestly can't say I had the greatest civics teachers, but I don't understand how these concepts are not self evident. Yeah, I read a lot of Jefferson on my own time and I made myself familiar with various political philosophies, but wow, how depressing... Ok, sure, flag burning is a tricky issue (for some folks) but beyond that? What is wrong with people? This country isn't even that old. Do people need an exercise in oppression? Maybe they should spend a year in mock dictatorship so the know WHY we have the foundation for this country that we fought so hard for.

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Originally Posted by ForrestBlack

Ugh... don't even get me started on that article... it really sickens me. :(

I honestly can't say I had the greatest civics teachers, but I don't understand how these concepts are not self evident. Yeah, I read a lot of Jefferson on my own time and I made myself familiar with various political philosophies, but wow, how depressing... Ok, sure, flag burning is a tricky issue (for some folks) but beyond that? What is wrong with people? This country isn't even that old. Do people need an exorcise in oppression? Maybe they should spend a year in mock dictatorship so the know WHY we have the foundation for this country that we fought so hard for.

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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin


I can't say much more without getting really pissed off. I just watched millions of people freeze for months in Ukraine for even a modicum of the freedoms we have here.


OEC

(1) As I recall, burning is the way the US military is supposed to retire Old Glory once it is too tattered to fly. Can anyone confirm or debunk this for me?

(2) With the exception of possibly military ceremonies, who the heck burns the US flag inside America? I know a lot of punk rock breaking-the-rules sorts of folks and I don't think I've ever known anyone who was enough of a tweeze to do that.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaG

(1) As I recall, burning is the way the US military is supposed to retire Old Glory once it is too tattered to fly. Can anyone confirm or debunk this for me?

(2) With the exception of possibly military ceremonies, who the heck burns the US flag inside America? I know a lot of punk rock breaking-the-rules sorts of folks and I don't think I've ever known anyone who was enough of a tweeze to do that.

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It has to be completely incinerated in a specific manner.

Retiring the Flag
When the flag has become soiled, worn, or unfit for display it should be retired. Often there is a ceremony that will be done to retire it appropriately. Traditionally it is incinerated. The flag should be cut with scissors or some type of knife in a structured manner (not just torn) and then incinerated. It is not to be left in rags or simply thrown away.

http://www.postring.net/oldglory/etiquette.htm

The idea of burning an American Flag disguists me. I was never hurting for fucking shit up points either.:thumb:


OEC

Flag burning is such a tangential argument, as it relates to the validity of free speech. It seems obvious to me that what we are trying to protect is people's right to express their views. Publications should not be barred from publishing critical articles. People should not be arrested for making critical statements. Safe and legal demonstrations should not be broken up by thugs in uniform. Expressing your views and communicating what you feel might be a better way for the society around you is simply part of our system, and that is very very important.

Flag burning is difficult (for some folks) because it's kind of a double negative. You want to be protected by your rights as a citizen, while symbolically denouncing or rejecting the symbol of the country that grants you those rights. It seems fundamentally hypocritical, and in my opinion is a kinda pointless way to express your views. You want to burn a symbol of a certain political party? Fine. However, yes, I think it should be legal, so long as you don't break any fire codes, you don't endanger people, and you actually own the flag you are burning. For example, you should not be allowed to burn a flag in a crowded theatre, and you should not be allowed to burn down the public library because you don't agree with the books they hold. But, you should not be arrested for simply making a statement against your government by burning the flag, no matter how dumb that method of making your point might be.

Flag burning, however, should not be the litmus test for free speech.

I should have added that I do not believe flag burning should be illegal. I just find it disguisting on a personal level. I would apply the same freedoms to anything I dislike personally as long it does not endange the person or property of others. My remedy is my own right to counter-speech.

OEC

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Originally Posted by OneEyedCat

I should have added that I do not believe flag burning should be illegal. I just find it disguisting on a personal level. I would apply the same freedoms to anything I dislike personally as long it does not endange the person or property of others. My remedy is my own right to counter-speech.

OEC

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I second that.

Flag burning, at least for me, is in the same league as people who want to "kill" certain politicians. Usually it's just talk but it makes you wonder what kind of mentality they have when they can justify murdering a person because they violate some odd world view they have. I ran into this with a few Anti-Bush protesters last year...they denounced him for killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children...so they figured that someone should kill the president, his family, his cabinet, and pretty much anyone who supported him.

Now I'm old enough to know that politics breed passion, intelligence, and massive amounts of stupidity so I paid no real mind to it at the time. But it is worrying when you have people who truly HATE others on the opposite political spectrum yet can't see that they are as bad as those they hate.

Obviously somewhere the elements of our founding fathers and the documents they fought and bleed for are getting lost in the educational system...we can't have generation after generation learn this stuff only when they reach College. It's sad how much American History is glossed over in Public Schools or made so bitter and dry it feels as though it has no relevance or importance.

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Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

Flag burning, at least for me, is in the same league as people who want to "kill" certain politicians. Usually it's just talk but it makes you wonder what kind of mentality they have when they can justify murdering a person because they violate some odd world view they have. I ran into this with a few Anti-Bush protesters last year...they denounced him for killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children...so they figured that someone should kill the president, his family, his cabinet, and pretty much anyone who supported him.

Now I'm old enough to know that politics breed passion, intelligence, and massive amounts of stupidity so I paid no real mind to it at the time. But it is worrying when you have people who truly HATE others on the opposite political spectrum yet can't see that they are as bad as those they hate.

Obviously somewhere the elements of our founding fathers and the documents they fought and bleed for are getting lost in the educational system...we can't have generation after generation learn this stuff only when they reach College. It's sad how much American History is glossed over in Public Schools or made so bitter and dry it feels as though it has no relevance or importance.

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Agree with most of what you said. In part, it would depend on your definition of the political spectrum. I hate fascism, communism, racism, and several other isms. I am not rude to such people as I seek to understand and refute their every argument. I see nothing wrong with even blatant deception in these instances. I am assuming you are talking more about the "left-right" spectrum. Another thing is our tendency to pigeonhole one another on this spectrum. It certainly does not help matters that we are now raising citizens who have no real knowledge of our history and constitution.

OEC

I got alot of info from my Texas history teacher. Now about the Flag burning topic. I being in the US Air Force I do not like any one burning flags period. I being born in South Korea know both ends of the School/ freedom issue. In South Korea your family pays for you to goto class from the equivilant to 1st grade all the way to college. The time to goto school are 8:00am to 5:00pm not only do you go to school for 9 hrs you goto school on Sat as well. As soon as you complete school you (MALES) at the age of 21 are automatically enlisted in the military but you get to choose what branch. after that you then usually go apply for a job. not much freedom but you learn alot from just OJT (on job trainning) in the military and stuff.

American and Canadain History are alot different so I am not even going to go there but as a history nit I havea pretty good understanding of how The United States started. But If I recall this was about teachers and if the did thuer job also. I found Most teachers were self serving fools except my English teacher who wore a clown nose in the halwasy when he was pissed or not amused with things he was smart and ingenious in his way of teaching....all other teachers were lame boring individuals who just were there to make money it was not till i got to college did I really enjoy learning. But One thing I would like to point out Even in England and Canada and most places the knowledge of human and cictizen righst are poorley known. Also about the people who created them and the struggles and strife people went through right or wrong to this day.

Im not so sure I buy that- I live with a 16yr old, and they are all about thier "rights"- to ludicrous extremes!!!
I read an article about an actual new "psychosis" amongst teenagers who are just out of control, because they "know" thier "rights"!!

I don't know. Flag burning in the sixties was not just a renonciation of the American state. It was a "fuck you" to the imaginary lines which divide countries and cause so much carnage. I find that it can be quite a powerful symbol.

I dont know if south broward high school still has that, but they had barbed wire and guards all over the place to prevent kids from skipping class, or most other stuff aside from going to and from class.

Most kids had a habbit of climbing the fences before they added that stuff. **