What are your opinions if any on all the Decapitations in IRAQ...

Me I think that it shows just how barbaric these ppl are...It also shows that they are too afraid to fight us directly..so they show these tapes of civilians they have captured and nothing of any Army personel...They are Executing Innocent ppl....

I still think we should turn the whole country into the worlds largest parking lot....But thats the redneck speaking out in me..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -=Asmodeus=-

Me I think that it shows just how barbaric these ppl are...It also shows that they are too afraid to fight us directly..so they show these tapes of civilians they have captured and nothing of any Army personel...They are Executing Innocent ppl....

I still think we should turn the whole country into the worlds largest parking lot

---

I agree with you completely on that subject. :buttrock: :twak:

These are bullies and thugs who want to use fear and intimidation to be "The Next Saddam" or next Osama...they are not "freedom fighters" like some want to paint them as. They want their world view to dominate without question. Their time is over and they don't want to go peacefully...and these select few are more than willing to take down their nations, faith, and family in the process.

Fundementalists are worthless no matter what region you come from or faith you hold true. Once you kill an innocent person you cross a line and destroy whatever ideal you fight for.

Even more angering is how conflicting stories and assesments come out of that region. Those there have one story...those here reporting on what's going on over there have another. So much political partisan nonsense is polluting all this it's hard to find the truth...cause it's sure as hell not on the news.

End of the day though this is how a world changes and evolves...as violent and bloody as it may seem...that's par for the course really.

I could be out of line here but doesn't anyone recall all that coverage on the news about the mistreatment the AMERICANS gave the Iraqi prisoners?
And aren't they (the US) supposed to be the good guys?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drakken

I could be out of line here but doesn't anyone recall all that coverage on the news about the mistreatment the AMERICANS gave the Iraqi prisoners?
And aren't they (the US) supposed to be the good guys?

---

Mistreatment? MISTREATMENT?!?! Our tooprs forced them to assume uncomforatble positions, took naked pictures of them, sure one of our troops ***** one of them (and was immediately court marshalled) but these were known criminals. Our troops are not going into these peoples homes, slaughtering them just for being there, making videos of it and celebrating each and every time. The people the iraqis are killing are not even soldiers, just people there trying to help repair some of the damage caused by this war. I don't say bomb the hell out of the entire region due to the fact that for every one asshole doing these things, there are hundreds of innocents that greatly love and appreciate the fact that they no longer have to fear a tyrannical asshole like Saddam who killed thousands simply for his own amusement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drakken

I could be out of line here but doesn't anyone recall all that coverage on the news about the mistreatment the AMERICANS gave the Iraqi prisoners?
And aren't they (the US) supposed to be the good guys?

---

What the US troops did over there was wrong YES.... But mostly what they did was Embarassment....The Iraqis are Killing Innocent ppl..and doing it in the name of God or Allah or whom ever they worship...

For real.

When troops like my little sister are involved in combat, they try to protect innocent civilians. those prison guards pissed off most US troops, because that's not how they really are. I mean my lil' sis is a Combat Engineer (19 years old and already a Spc-4) and she spends her days on Guard Duty, and rebuilding a country (Roads mostly)

She's there to do three things

1. Stay alive
2. Keep her friends alive
3. Rebuild Iraq (Literally)

stinking terrorists' goal is to Kill innocent civilians. I mean some dude gets a job repairing machines and they cut his head off?

What's that about?

I mean first they killed that guy who was working on cell Phone towers, then that guy that fixed Helicopters for the Saudis, and lastly that South Korean Guy.

I mean damn. It ALMOST makes me think we should make hostages of the famalies of our enemies (Like the romans did) but that'd be going too far.... I guess.

can't let a small group of terrorists make us nuke millions of innocents (that'd be wrong) it'd be easy but it'd be wrong.... probably.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drakken

I could be out of line here but doesn't anyone recall all that coverage on the news about the mistreatment the AMERICANS gave the Iraqi prisoners?
And aren't they (the US) supposed to be the good guys?

---

Those prisoners where not exactly innocent people...to get in that cell block you had to be a world class peice of shit. Was it wrong? Not really when you look at what happens in prisons all over the world...that's about average really. More so in Middle East prisons. What happened in that prison should have been handled by more experienced troops...simple as that. You have to BREAK prisoners like that...they did not have the skills to do it correctly.

You want to see real brutality? Look at Iraqi prisons BEFORE the war...or look closer to home. Prisons in California are well known for some pretty vicious behaviour...no one really cares though since 9 out of 10 times the violence is commited to and started by...the utterly worthless (rapists, murderers, *********s, etc.)

It's obvious what they're doing... They're trying to end the war by sticking this in the faces of all the liberal hippie fucks. Now they're saying, "Well, if we weren't in Iraq, they wouldn't be killing people like this. We need to pull out." The sad thing is, our media is so liberal, they're going along with it. What else do these bastards want, other than news coverage, to have it plastered all over the tv? And we're giving it to them. Freedom of speech or not, it should be illegal.

When al-Muqrin asked the Saudis to free his imprisoned brethren, I would have chopped them up and dumped their remains in the street. They behead one of ours, we should behead 10 of theirs.

It is just plain evil.. These people have no remorse, no problem cutting peoples head off... And these are people that arent even involved in their war. I agree, what the Americans did was wrong, but you didnt see them blindfolding them and slowly cutting their heads off!! I dotn know if any of you have seen the videos, but it wasnt just a swift slash of the sword and bye bye head. They sawed at the neck until the head came off.. Another thing I think is wrong is that when the Americans were caught with these photos, it was a really BIG DEAL. When the American was beheaded they said very little about it. I think the American civillians should get out of there.. They are all targets, no matter how innocent. You cant reason with barbarians...

Have any of you seen the video? If not, contact me, I have a copy of it. Thought it would be inspirational to my tree-hugging, anti-war idiot friends I am unfortunate enough to have.

"Violence Is the only means of dealing with reality"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sin

"Violence Is the only means of dealing with reality"

---

Oddly enough this is quite true.

Are you surprised this is happening, though? You've been fucking around with these people for years. Reminder: i think it was in 1998 that the US requested iraq to let foreign investigators into the country to find out if they had any "weapons of mass destruction". Saddam wouldnt let them in. Wrong decision, but then again, would america show the rest of the world all its secret laboratories, nuclear silos, etc? The US responded with bombing every military structure in the country, claiming they were using some laser targeting system so that they would be 100% sure the bombs wouldnt miss. From what I heard, less then 30% of all those thousands of bombs dropped hit their targets or only partially hit their target. The rest hit bridges, hospitals, shops, houses, water and power plants, etc. Thousands of people died, soldiers and civilians, "innocents" and "bad guys".

Americas response: "Whoops".

After the bombings, the Red Cross and other organisations tried to send convoys with medical supplies and food to iraq, but they were stopped at the border by american troops who refused to let them in. I've heard numbers ranging from 100 000- 300 000 people dying because of this. Finaly, iraq were "allowed" to buy supplies with oil (quote Bush: "Don't burn your oil! It belongs to you, the iraqi people").

Sure, we didnt have the comfort to watch these people die from our couches in Alabama or wherever, but still... 100 000 people? We (as in the whole freaking world) let these people die. Can you call this anything else then execution?

And another thing:you didnt even use your fantastic laser technology when you bombed Belgrade, Serbia. You actually TARGETED hospitals and such. You really have to ask yourself whose the biggest barbarian. Sure, what they did was wrong, but I can understand that people get tired of getting killed and harrased.

Me, I'd rather die then get butt-fucked by some stupid bastard lacking morals from Hicksville, US and then be on every news broadcast and newspaper in the world.

Quote:

---

Mistreatment? MISTREATMENT?!?! Our tooprs forced them to assume uncomforatble positions, took naked pictures of them, sure one of our troops ***** one of them (and was immediately court marshalled) but these were known criminals. Our troops are not going into these peoples homes, slaughtering them just for being there, making videos of it and celebrating each and every time. The people the iraqis are killing are not even soldiers, just people there trying to help repair some of the damage caused by this war. I don't say bomb the hell out of the entire region due to the fact that for every one asshole doing these things, there are hundreds of innocents that greatly love and appreciate the fact that they no longer have to fear a tyrannical asshole like Saddam who killed thousands simply for his own amusement.

---

Where were you during Viet Nam? How many innocent Vietnamese women were ***** by U.S. Soldiers just out for a good time? How many villages of innocent people became cut to ribbons in crossfires with the Viet Kong and the US? There is no good, there is no evil, only difference in perspective.

If Hitler won World War two we'd be reading about 'what a great guy he was.'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absinth_minded

Me, I'd rather die then get butt-fucked by some stupid bastard lacking morals from Hicksville, US and then be on every news broadcast and newspaper in the world.

---

Ok..then like die already.

Your "facts" are about as liberal European as they get. Half truths at best...take the missle thing. The Media claimed it was 100%...the military never made such claims. They said High Accuracy Munitions. Ultimately your still dropping bombs...as fas as the actual success rate those are usually kept hush hush for obvious reasons. It's war...innocent people get fucked over. Fact of life...deal with it. Don't remember "Whoops" being the official statement...should have been "Get the fuck out of the way next time" though.

As far as the red cross thing goes...use some common sense. How effective would unprotected convoys goign into a hot warzone have been? The red cross loves to go in harms way but their plan (before and after the war) has been ill conceived...look at their track record, it's not perfect.

As far as Serbia goes...you ARE aware "civilian" targets were being used as military staging areas right? Study the war a bit...the problem with the air campeign was the fact their were no "pure" targets. Their never are in reigimes like those in Serbia and Iraq. The innocent are mixed with the "bad guys".

End of the day none of this is black and white...but hey you're from Sweden so I'll let your lack of understanding in all this slide... ;)

Me...I wouldn't live in any other nation. My kin left Europe way back for a reason and the last few years have shown me why. For fucks sake your continent has socialist governments...the hell do ANY of you know about freedom let alone ethics. European history has always shown it does not function on Ethics.

Don't "Hate" you guys by any means...but no fucking way would I want to live in Europe or it's governments...hell I can't even stomach Canada for more than a few days.

It'll stick to Hicksville..it's not perfect...but thank it's not Europe. That's damn grand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drakken

Where were you during Viet Nam? How many innocent Vietnamese women were ***** by U.S. Soldiers just out for a good time? How many villages of innocent people became cut to ribbons in crossfires with the Viet Kong and the US? There is no good, there is no evil, only difference in perspective.

If Hitler won World War two we'd be reading about 'what a great guy he was.'

---

There were no innocent villages in Nam'. You choose a side...simple as that. Plus you are aware that Charlie *****, killed, and massacred it's own people right? It WAS a civil war remember?

The U.S. should have pulled out in 68' but with the Cold War as it was then...it was just a bad climate in every sense. The U.S. GI was not a boyscout in Nam' but they were nowhere near as evil a some want to claim they were. It was a war fought, bleed, and Sacrificed for by Grunts not politicians, or the hippie fucks who spit on em when they returned.

Too much was asked of the American G.I. in that war...and it was decades before they were even repaid.

We haven't just tortured them.................. numerous executions and deaths by mistreatment have occured as well... so we can get information on terrorists......... if we stopped terrorizing them then they'd probably leave us alone but NOOOOOOOOOOOO..... they're just a bunch of godless arabs not good ole Bible christians like W.... also if we stopped supporting that psychopath Ariel Sharon, most of these people would leave us alone but no we have a government that listens to shitheads like Pat Robertson (who blamed September 11 on gays and thinks our state department should be nuked by Jesus) who want to cleanse the holy land of the Palestinians so they can convert the Jews and make them Christians (just like the Spanish Inquisition) so that Israel would be a christian nation. If these fucking psycho christian gun toting rednecks would get the fuck out of office then perhaps we won't see too many more beheadings............ which by the way are from stupid shitheads with ideals not too different than the president's

Ok..then like die already.

> ...

Your "facts" are about as liberal European as they get. Half truths at best...

> It's truth for ya. No american flags, no soldiers kissing babies, no black tape.

take the missle thing. The Media claimed it was 100%...the military never made such claims. They said High Accuracy Munitions.

> The AMERICAN media. Have you ever watched Fox? I think they called it "Surgical Bombing".

Ultimately your still dropping bombs...as fas as the actual success rate those are usually kept hush hush for obvious reasons.

> Published all over the place. Can't know for sure if they're accurate or not.

It's war...innocent people get fucked over. Fact of life...deal with it.

> America didn't declare war or anything. They just sent in some bombers to do their dirty work.

Don't remember "Whoops" being the official statement...should have been "Get the fuck out of the way next time" though.

As far as the red cross thing goes...use some common sense. How effective would unprotected convoys goign into a hot warzone have been? The red cross loves to go in harms way but their plan (before and after the war) has been ill conceived...look at their track record, it's not perfect.

> Warzone? What warzone? This was '98!

As far as Serbia goes...you ARE aware "civilian" targets were being used as military staging areas right?

> I'm talking about when their former president refused to leave his post and therefore NATO set the ultimatum that if he didnt leave Belgrade in [number] of days, they would start bombing the city.

Study the war a bit...the problem with the air campeign was the fact their were no "pure" targets. Their never are in reigimes like those in Serbia and Iraq. The innocent are mixed with the "bad guys".

> I know what the hell happend in that war and I know that neither you guys or any other country did shit for them.

End of the day none of this is black and white...but hey you're from Sweden so I'll let your lack of understanding in all this slide... ;)

> The most fucking neutral country in this world after Schwitzerland.
But hey, you're just an ignorant and misinformed american, and I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

Me...I wouldn't live in any other nation. My kin left Europe way back for a reason and the last few years have shown me why.

> Couse you guys have a McDonalds in every street corner..? Couse you can buy guns at convenience stores?

For fucks sake your continent has socialist governments...

> ... and we have practically eliminated all social injustices, thankyouverymuch. Nobodys poor, nobody can complain about lack of democracy, etc. Ever been abroad?

the hell do ANY of you know about freedom let alone ethics. European history has always shown it does not function on Ethics.

> Apparently alot. Democracy was invented here. We have elections every 4 years in which we can vote on whoever the hell we want.
Do you even know what the word "ethics" means? You dont read your local paper that often, apparently.

Don't "Hate" you guys by any means...but no fucking way would I want to live in Europe or it's governments...

> Good for you.

hell I can't even stomach Canada for more than a few days.

It'll stick to Hicksville..it's not perfect...but thank it's not Europe. That's damn grand.

> Hooray for junk food and TV! Ronald McDonald for president!

go look on the ogrish.com website at the behaeding videos, look at the barbaric way they killed these innocent people. I dont give my opinions of this war or any other, but before you go and rant about this or any war, GO LOOK. they take these poor bastards and SAW their heads off, not chop them off. I seen the video. Its disgusting. thats not fighting for freedom, thats animals killing the innocent. It makes me sick. why? because we are on "their" holy land. plain and simple.

Oh I'm gonna have fun with this one...don't have time for it now but I'll hit on this before I go...

"Hooray for junk food and TV! Ronald McDonald for president!"

Junk Food is universal...TV is as well...and actually ole Ronald would make a damn fine leader. McDonald and Hamburgler in 04!

sounds interesting

*lol*

C'mon! You're not giving me a chance to hate you! :D

:D I really stirred the shit pot when I made this thread.... :D

Haha, bet you weren't expecting to see any nosy European buggers here, were ya? :D

I dont mind..I was wanting to see some real conversation here instead of the usual stuff....like which hand do you use to masturbate with..

This is an actual conversation/argument....Errrr Argusation...thats tha term we should use...

P.S. I am a switch hitter:wink2:

*L* Yeah, good idea. It's always fun to debate things like this with you guys. :)

I'll have to write that down! :D

P.S You hit the switch, I get in the shit pot!

My Comments in Bold

Ok..then like die already.

> ...

Well say something as rediculous as your Hicksville comment and that's what you get. The U.S. is insanly diverse. Unlike Europe you can drive for days in one direction and STILL be in the U.S. Drive from NYC to Miami and you'll see so many diffrent types of people and lifestyles you won't even believe it's the same nation. All Americans all with their own livelyhood and outlook.



Your "facts" are about as liberal European as they get. Half truths at best...

> It's truth for ya. No american flags, no soldiers kissing babies, no black tape.

Truth by your standards and those of the Media outlets you choose to trust. Truth is a funny lil thing...people still want to see the truth only THEY want to see. Some trust CNN and the BBC...others trust local news or extremely partisan news organizations.


take the missle thing. The Media claimed it was 100%...the military never made such claims. They said High Accuracy Munitions.

> The AMERICAN media. Have you ever watched Fox? I think they called it "Surgical Bombing".

No...Media as a whole. I'm a big fan of FOX News and they pretty much kept to the Military line of Surgical and High Precision Bombing...what YOU need to understand as an individual is that the missle hits A TARGET and EXPLODES...and depending on the munitions "Precision" can mean everything from a few yards to hundreds of feet NEAR the target. Ballistics, gravity, weather, etc...all factor into this. Plus Secondary explosions need to be factored in...again...if you are silly enough to believe the news as the absolute Truth you're forgetting common sense or in this case....high school physics.

Ultimately your still dropping bombs...as fas as the actual success rate those are usually kept hush hush for obvious reasons.

> Published all over the place. Can't know for sure if they're accurate or not.

The Military RARELY publishes it's munitions statistics outside of what can be readily gauged by the intel community. THe ONLY reliable scource of weapon systems around the world is Jane's guides. And even then real world tests and situations are the only place to gauge the effective strength of a weapon system.

It's war...innocent people get fucked over. Fact of life...deal with it.

> America didn't declare war or anything. They just sent in some bombers to do their dirty work.

In what engagement? Strategic Bombing has been around since WW2...it's a way to minimize Infantry Loses. Sucks to be on the recieveing end but the same goes for a gang **** in prison.

Don't remember "Whoops" being the official statement...should have been "Get the fuck out of the way next time" though.

As far as the red cross thing goes...use some common sense. How effective would unprotected convoys goign into a hot warzone have been? The red cross loves to go in harms way but their plan (before and after the war) has been ill conceived...look at their track record, it's not perfect.

> Warzone? What warzone? This was '98!

In 98' Iraq was classified as a Hotzone. Simply put that means the nations government, it's people, and really the nation is considered hostile. This makes any entrance by outside organizations very dangerous for their own safety. The Red Cross going in may have the best intentions but look at the reality of the situation...the Medical suupplies and food for aid Started by the U.N. wound up as massive black market traded goods and a huge mess filled with corruption on both sides. The Red Cross never would have been able to effectively do what was needed...the fact is the Red Cross did NOT need U.S. approval to enter Iraq in that time...the specifics will probably never be known why they were not allowed in but eventually they did make their way in...as did other aid services.


As far as Serbia goes...you ARE aware "civilian" targets were being used as military staging areas right?

> I'm talking about when their former president refused to leave his post and therefore NATO set the ultimatum that if he didnt leave Belgrade in [number] of days, they would start bombing the city.

NATO at that time was under the "leadership" of Wes Clark...a Korean Starcraft Junkie would have been a better leader of military forces. Read his book Waging Modern War for a good laugh...it's so half assed and archaic in terms of tactics...but I gotta admit I understand why. NO nation wanted to send in troops after the fucking disaster that U.N. Peackeepers where...talk to those who served there...you can find em easy. They will tell you stories that you honestly wonder what the fuck the U.N. is good for. NATO did not want to repeat that disaster.

Study the war a bit...the problem with the air campeign was the fact their were no "pure" targets. Their never are in reigimes like those in Serbia and Iraq. The innocent are mixed with the "bad guys".

> I know what the hell happend in that war and I know that neither you guys or any other country did shit for them.

Obviously you know nothing about it. U.N. Peacekeepers were in that area for years working with arms tied due to insane restrictiosn passed by U.N. Nations...the bloods on EVERYONES hands for that. From the U.S. to Russia...to even ole Sweden.

End of the day none of this is black and white...but hey you're from Sweden so I'll let your lack of understanding in all this slide... ;)

> The most fucking neutral country in this world after Schwitzerland.
But hey, you're just an ignorant and misinformed american, and I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

Neutral because you have to be as a nation. Think me ignorant and misinformed...I'm just some Hick from Hicksville by your account. Switzerland was never nuetral...look at the Nazi Gold Scandal of the Late 90's. Look all Politics aside I really Sweden as a nation...great films, art, people, etc. But unless you're in the middle of a conflict like the one in Iraq you're "noise" at best on the global scene. You have nothing to lose directly like say Great Britian. It doesn't mean the opinion of your nation and people don't matter...but it's like going to a funeral of a person you don't know...it's sad...but you're not THAT effected by it you know?

Me...I wouldn't live in any other nation. My kin left Europe way back for a reason and the last few years have shown me why.

> Couse you guys have a McDonalds in every street corner..? Couse you can buy guns at convenience stores?

For fucks sake your continent has socialist governments...

> ... and we have practically eliminated all social injustices, thankyouverymuch. Nobodys poor, nobody can complain about lack of democracy, etc. Ever been abroad?

Yes I have and your nobody is poor, nobody can complain about lack of democracy comment is scary if you believe that...Granted I stuck around southern Europe but I heard a lot of complaints about it all from family, friends, and their kin. Eliminated all social injustices? I had a friend from Sweden and he paints a VERY diffrent picture about it than you do...remember Anna Lindh? I was talking to my friend as that happened (we were oddly in the middle of this exact same debate).



the hell do ANY of you know about freedom let alone ethics. European history has always shown it does not function on Ethics.

> Apparently alot. Democracy was invented here. We have elections every 4 years in which we can vote on whoever the hell we want.
Do you even know what the word "ethics" means? You dont read your local paper that often, apparently.

No Democracy was invented in Ancient Greece...and modern geographical divisions are not exactly the best to use in such arguments.

My comment on European ethics is in response to the fundemental diffrence between the U.S. and Europe...and it stems from it's ethical views. How one defines Good and Evil if you will...Dennis Prager nailed it perfectly...you should listen to his speetch on it. Highly engaging.

Don't "Hate" you guys by any means...but no fucking way would I want to live in Europe or it's governments...

> Good for you.

Great for me actually.

hell I can't even stomach Canada for more than a few days.

It'll stick to Hicksville..it's not perfect...but thank it's not Europe. That's damn grand.

> Hooray for junk food and TV! Ronald McDonald for president![/QUOTE]

Why Ronald McDonald would make a great president...

1. Understands Criminals, Addictions, and The Need For Gratification. Look how he deals with the Hamburgler!. He allows the man to fulfill his needs and even helps him...through moderation. Very progressive of him.

2. He understands ethnic diversity. His best friend is purple and his other friends consist of a half/bird human thing and a guy who LOOKS like a hamburger. He is racialy tolorent and openly wears make up in public never afraid to look the fool. He is a modern man in every sense.

3. He understands the individual. He dresses like a CLOWN! He does not conform like Jack from Jack in the Box with his corporate whoring. Ronald is and always will be a Man for the individual and a man for the people!

and lastly...

4. He as for decades represented the child in all of us and the undying need for food at fair prices and while the current quality of his food sucks he none the less battles on in the face of overwhelming odds in a free market economy that his supports and interacts in. He embraces capitalism and the need for competition.

VOTE RONALD McDONALD FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

got my vote

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

VOTE RONALD McDONALD FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---

Only if Howard Stern is his running mate....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -=Asmodeus=-

It also shows that they are too afraid to fight us directly

---

You have to consider that they're still using the old AK's they bought from russians and the old stuff they've got from the USA. They couldn't stay a chance in a field combat against well-equipped soldiers, so they take their chances.
Try to look at all the shit from an objective point of view. They have their own beliefs, they have their own moral, they have their own way of life, and western nations (or rather the US) invaded their countries.
If you're just seeing them as a barbaric tribe who loves to tape snuff porn, you're a fascist in my eyes (oh yeah, go on, tell me how fascist I am, just for being german. I'm used to that from several IRC channels), but in my eyes, they're just fighting back with whatever weapon they get. I still believe, it wouldn't have come this far, if the people behind G. W. Bush wouldn't just care about how much money they can make.

To all people complaining about how barbaric the iraquis do slaughter innocents, which they watched on videos they saw on TV or the internet.. Two words: Guantánamo Bay. Does that make a difference to you? No? You'll probably tell me now that's is all lies and propaganda, but what proof do you have about the cruelty in Iraquis? Ever been there? Ever got decapitated?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by postcoital

Try to look at all the shit from an objective point of view. They have their own beliefs, they have their own moral, they have their own way of life, and western nations (or rather the US) invaded their countries.

---

This is where I have a problem with most people. We've all been raised that we should make the world a better place in some shape...some even made entire careers based on that ideal. When it comes to confronting certain forces in this world...deadly force is needed. You can't negotiate everything. Kinda like when your a kid and a bully beats you up...you just can't talk him out of it.

In this case the way of life of said nations contradicts eveyrhing we've gorwn up to hold faith in both ideals and eithics. So for a nation to spout Freedom and such and NOT bring it to other nations in some form always seemed kinda one sided.

Look at Germany a nation that was divided for decades and brought together not all that long ago...the opressive eastern block ideal is not what won eh?

If we ALL want a better world we need get bloody and get into some fights to slowly but surely take apart and dismantle ANY nation and people that deny freedom in its various forms.

Is it Right? Will it happen?

Not likely...since imposing freedom goes agaisnt the idea of freedom to begin with...yet many feel that opressed people MUST be liberated by free people.

Freedom as an ideal is fun to praise and talk about...Freedom in practice...is a whole other mess entirely.

To all people complaining about how barbaric the iraquis do slaughter innocents, which they watched on videos they saw on TV or the internet.. Two words: Guantánamo Bay. Does that make a difference to you? No? You'll probably tell me now that's is all lies and propaganda, but what proof do you have about the cruelty of the iraquis? Ever been there? Ever got decapitated?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by postcoital

To all people complaining about how barbaric the iraquis do slaughter innocents, which they watched on videos they saw on TV or the internet.. Two words: Guantánamo Bay. Does that make a difference to you? No? You'll probably tell me now that's is all lies and propaganda, but what proof do you have about the cruelty in Iraquis? Ever been there? Ever got decapitated?

---

Oh come on that is such a stretch...they're not decapitating the prisoners on TV at Guantanamo. I've known many marines stationed there and they've been pretty candid. It's not a resort by any means but the prisoners there are not boy scouts and it's not an SS camp.

Lies and propoganda go both ways...come on...you're german you whould know this. If ANYTHING like decapitations, torture, etc. was going on it would have leaked out...that's jsut the nature of this stuff in the states and military...From Tailhook to the killing of a gay soilder..this stuff simply hits the Media REAL fast.

It's not the same thing...it's not even the "Same Fucking Sport".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

This is where I have a problem with most people. We've all been raised that we should make the world a better place in some shape...some even made entire careers based on that ideal. When it comes to confronting certain forces in this world...deadly force is needed. You can't negotiate everything. Kinda like when your a kid and a bully beats you up...you just can't talk him out of it.

---

So in your eyes, the solution to all problems is to bring democracy to the disadvanteged. The Führer had quite a similar thought.
Saying that you want to make a better world in the same sentence as you say that deadly force is needed, fucks that statement quite up, don't you think?

Quote:

---

In this case the way of life of said nations contradicts eveyrhing we've gorwn up to hold faith in both ideals and eithics. So for a nation to spout Freedom and such and NOT bring it to other nations in some form always seemed kinda one sided.

---

Well, I'm not at all a globalisiation friend, so I still don't get the idea why one nation who apparently is more mighty than another, wants to interfer the the weaker nations politics. Since it's obviously not the idea of freedom, it must be a matter of profit.

Quote:

---

Look at Germany a nation that was divided for decades and brought together not all that long ago...the opressive eastern block ideal is not what won eh?

---

To tell you the truth, I'm an eastern german. I was born in the German Democratic Republic, known to you as the russian zone of occupation. In the years I've lived there, in the years my parents lived there, none of us had any serious trouble with the government. Everyone had a job, not like nowadays, everyone had enough money to afford food and health care, not as nowadays, sure, not everyone had a car, and there were certain things we did not have, but go around in our german east and ask people if they hated the DDR/GDR. You'd be surprised. That the socialsim didn't win is a fact of economy. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of socialism either, just trying to tell you that you're just accepting what you're growing up with.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

---

If we ALL want a better world we need get bloody and get into some fights to slowly but surely take apart and dismantle ANY nation and people that deny freedom in its various forms.

---

That's what the christians said, before they sent crusaders into the holy land, eh. Paladin Bush.

Quote:

---

Is it Right? Will it happen?

Not likely...since imposing freedom goes agaisnt the idea of freedom to begin with...yet many feel that opressed people MUST be liberated by free people.

---

And who exactly tells you that opressed people are opressed people? CNN? BBC? Go figure, you just can't believe anything that's shown on TV. I remember, back on the 9-11, muslim students were dancing on the streets over here. They came to Germany with their families, and apparently not because they were in desperate danger in their home country, or else they wouldn't were happy about that act of terrorism.

Quote:

---

Freedom as an ideal is fun to praise and talk about...Freedom in practice...is a whole other mess entirely.

---

Freedom through a gun isn't freedom, it's suppression. Just because your TV tells you that these people are free now, doesn't mean they really are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

Oh come on that is such a stretch...they're not decapitating the prisoners on TV at Guantanamo. I've known many marines stationed there and they've been pretty candid. It's not a resort by any means but the prisoners there are not boy scouts and it's not an SS camp.

Lies and propoganda go both ways...come on...you're german you whould know this. If ANYTHING like decapitations, torture, etc. was going on it would have leaked out...that's jsut the nature of this stuff in the states and military...From Tailhook to the killing of a gay soilder..this stuff simply hits the Media REAL fast.

It's not the same thing...it's not even the "Same Fucking Sport".

---

Well, and I don't believe that the Wehrmacht killed 6 Million Jews in the KZs, that doesn't mean that they haven't.
I have seen guantanamo prisoners, and POWs in american camps in iraq being brutally forced into anal and oral sex, strangled, beaten to death, killed in inhuman ways. And where have I seen those? Guess what, the telly. Propaganda? Maybe. But who can tell the difference? Can you? Have you been there? I don't blindly believe things I've seen on TV, I believe things I've seen with my own eyes. And since it probably won't happen that I'll fly down there to take a look, I don't believe any shit the media tells me about that so called "War Against Terrorism".
You're all caught in that attitude that the Middle East is evil and barbaric, you can't deny that, it has shown already. They, in fact, are caught in the attitude that your nation is an infidel intruder. Now who's right there? Them or you?
You wanna hear my opinion? Probably not, I'll tell you anyway. None of you. Or to say it with Christopher Walken's words: You're all a bunch of fucktards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by postcoital

You're all caught in that attitude that the Middle East is evil and barbaric, you can't deny that...

---

Oh I fucking well will. I live in a community filled with immagrents from all over the middle east. I've done buisness with them, gone to school with them, and happily live in peace with them. They're just like me...Americans. I don't hate them or their home nations. Don't let the bullshit you call "The Truth" lure you into thinking we're over here "hateing them cause the media said to". I never bought into that and no one here is saying "Blame the arabs"...we can tell the diffrence between people...and wortheless fucks who need a bullet in the head. You get pissed people think you're a nazi cause your German? Well obviously it's clear you didn't learn much from that generalization. But hey if you honestly think that the average U.S. citizen is here "hating the middle east" then go ahead and think that...like I said before...we all see the truth as we want to see it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by postcoital

You wanna hear my opinion? Probably not, I'll tell you anyway. None of you. Or to say it with Christopher Walken's words: You're all a bunch of fucktards.

---

Nice...well the collective "fucktards" of this and other nations...is the only reason Germany is even around anymore. Or is your government rewiting that part of history these days as well? Germany is an odd lil country these days...still a fan but as the Good Book says..."This is Bat Country!"