Printable View
Today, I celebrate the life of my brother in fighting the tyranny of communism. I may have never "believed": but I believe in you. The voice of the Pope sounded loud across the lands. Your moral strength inspired the rise of your brothers and sisters. It is done. Rest in Peace, Karol.
OEC
Granted me and the catholic church parted ways sometime back and I never always saw eye to eye with him on various issues...but I did and will always have tremendous respect for the man. Not because he was "the pope" but because he used his position in ways few men of power and influence do. He did try to do as much good as he could and traveled the world to do so...faced the cold war in a suprisingly unfearful way...and did his best to remain a positive voice in a very cynical world. Many will dismiss him as unimportant or the symbol of all things wrong with organized religion...but given his life before his time as pope, his very unconventional run AS the pope....and the sheer fact he did as much as one man could (he couldn't change the fundemental parts of the catholic church...but if you're a faithful follower he did try to make it more relavent).
One can focus on what he should have done...should have changed...but you can say that about any man of his stature. The catholic church is a massive beast that spreads out all across the world and while he did not tame it the way his harsher critics would have liked (the stance on abortion, women's rights, the priest scandals) he did become it's most positive symbol in terms of how he handled the idea of a pope, saints, and the role the chrurch needed to be (more connected to the people)...sadly of course his later years were far less powerful due to his health but his prime years were one of excitement....you just never saw a pope like that. Traditionally Pope's didn't act like he did in the modern age.
He was a very interesting man in an equaly interesting time...may he rest in peace...no surprise he put up a hell of a fight to the end.
May he R.I.P I couldnt have said it any better than TZ
How instrumental was he in communism's fall? Lech Walesa, founder of Poland's Solidarity movement weighs in:
"We know what the Pope has achieved. Fifty percent of the collapse of communism is his doing," said Walesa. "More than one year after he spoke these words, we were able to organize 10 million people for strikes, protests and negotiations. Earlier we tried, I tried, and we couldn't do it. These are facts. Of course, communism would have fallen, but much later and in a bloody way. He was a gift from the heavens to us."
good for him. too bad about every single gay person and every person that ever had an abortion or wasn't christian that he condemned to burning torture forever.
oh yeah and for such an opponent of communism I didn't see him do anything to free tibet, or is it because he really doesn't give a shit what genocide you commit as long as it's not against christianity.
Communist China expelled or killed virtually all the christians in their country during the "Cultural Revolution." While I disagree with a lot of the religious precepts he expounded, it is better to be "damned" than dead. Homosexuality was illegal in the USSR. Under Stalin, the punishment was death. As to abortion, I'd again rather be damned for it than have it as the only method of birth control. A lot of women became infertile due to the archaic arbortive methods practiced in the USSR.
OEC
it was that way too under the Holy Roman Empire. the only reason it's not like that still is because the catholic church is a joke that sits in thier city and has no power. it's pretty ridiculous for him to claim responsibilty for ending communsim, simply because he spoke against it. so did a lot of people and they did about as much to actually stop it as the pope did.
He never claimed to have ended communism. The opponents of communism name him as a major inspiration and impetus for the rise of solidarity in Poland. He had the influence to inspire millions of people to rise from their knees. The rest did not.
OEC
I think that that is subjective. plus it's pretty easy for us all to wash our hands of it and say job well done once communism ended, and ingore all the problems that are running rampent still in that part of the world that are just as bad or worse but without a quick politcal scapegoat to blame it all on and single out.
I'm definitely not washing my hands of it. I see now only a starting point.
OEC
eh. well that wasn't what I meant, I know that you aren't. THAT kind of is the point...in my mind I see you and people like doing just as much as the pope, more in fact, but without a famous face and public ass kissing.
I just believe in giving credit where it is due. As far as creating a just society, it is entirely up to the people. I don't see catholicism as a model for free society by any means. The ultimate heroes are the people.
OEC
i hope the fucker is in hell being fucked by demons for his silence on kiddy fiddling in the church
I'd rather those who actually commited such acts burned on earth...the guy was past his prime to deal with the issue anyhow. Was it handled badly? Yeah...but the issue is ALWAYS handled badly. Be it the circus that is the Jacko trial or teachers in public school.Quote:
Originally Posted by grebo
Do I wish he took stronger action? Yeah...but was I expecting it? No...the church has and always will handle as much internally as possible. Just like any other organization...that's both a problem and oddly enough a solution at times.
Priests should be held accountable in the courts of the countries they are in though...that seems only fair and right. Unfortunately too many bogus claims came up trying to extort money and fucked it all up.
so is the goth thing to do these days to talk shit about a guy that recently died?Quote:
Originally Posted by grebo
What religion do you belong to?Quote:
Originally Posted by grebo
OEC
Never really a goth thing...people do it all the time...always fun to talk shit about the dead...they can't fight back lolQuote:
Originally Posted by KilLAtomiK
yeah but youd think the guy was the seacond hitler the way some people have been talking about himQuote:
Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire
Meh...I pay it no mind. Everyone either over glorifies or over demonizes the dead these days. He was who he was...like it or hate it. If you want the truth it's there...if you want to focus only on parts of it to fill whatever predetermined notion you have of him...it's their.Quote:
Originally Posted by KilLAtomiK
Making him out to be the center of some vast storm is all well and good though...it lets the real bastards hide with ease.
well being catholic myself i find it sickening. i know he wasnt perfect but he did do alot of good during his term as pope, and even if you dont agree with the catholic church's views on abortion and other things if your not catholic you shouldnt give a fuck because it dosent afect you.
i was raised a catholic, went to church for 21 years, now only for weddings and funerals. i have 2 uncles who are priests. i lived in Ireland for 2 years and saw how fucked up a countrys people can get when the church has too much power. listening to the storys of bishops spanking naked kids and having orgasms, single mums made to give children up for adoption and then made to work in nunnery run laundrys for years because they are sinners, disabled kids abused by the clergy, i could go on forever.
if the pope sold half of the vaticans wealth the worlds poor & hungry would be fed for years, just one of his rings would fund alot of villages in some 3rd world country.
so i say fuck him, hes dead, the next one will be just as bad if not worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grebo
Yeah yeah...heard it all before and really it's just rediculous. If it was ONE man who could magicaly change these lil horrors then I am sure it would happen. You can be the top man in any organization and still have no control over those who will abuse their position...
I mean come on...priests abusing their powers? Their is such a harsh and vile history within the Catholic Church of that it's like shooting fish in a barrel...it's just not new. As far as him selling one of his rings to feed a 3rd world village...you can say that about ANYONE with a ring...even those weddings rings people give one another. It's unrealistic and down right silly to think that way.
I doubt the Pope or anyone else will resolve the issues in Ireland...It seems to be a place with more issues than jsut the religious problems we're all aware of.
You don't have to like the guy or even respect him...but if you're gonna hate a man and curse him to hell....at least make some sense behind it.
we irish have become too rich to go to church these days thankyou.Quote:
Originally Posted by grebo
He believed in demons, heaven and hell,
he condemned the lifestyle of millions of people,
he claimed to be in direct contact with at least 3 spiritual entities,
and being instructed by them,
he lived as being already dead for ages plus had a strong
affinity to homoerotic sado-masochsim and sublimated cannibalism
...
Ok - this guy really was more goth than all of us together!!!
:angel:
I'm glad I wasn't raised religious, tho I'm an Orthodox by birth. Anyways, the day is over.
OEC