negativity

after witnessing a fight tonight caused by someone trying to perpetrate bullshit macho posteuring, it really distressed me and made me think. this was coming from someone who stood for progressive social behaviour, and I see that manerism more and more all the time, from the people who of all should know better. where does it get us to tear each other down with hostility? we have rid ourselves of destructive influences, but we keep poisoning our communities with negativity. I say 'we' because we are all guilty of it, and it took seeing how that force is devistating to positive change for me to realize that I too am at fault. well, i'm not going to apologize for that, because that it's too late, but I am going to do the right thing and work toward any positive encouragment as a means of progress from now on. It doesn't matter how much we recycle, how many animals we save, how we say no to drugs and alchol, as long as we continue to destroy human interaction and relationships.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

after witnessing a fight tonight caused by someone trying to perpetrate bullshit macho posteuring, it really distressed me and made me think. this was coming from someone who stood for progressive social behaviour, and I see that manerism more and more all the time, from the people who of all should know better. where does it get us to tear each other down with hostility? we have rid ourselves of destructive influences, but we keep poisoning our communities with negativity. I say 'we' because we are all guilty of it, and it took seeing how that force is devistating to positive change for me to realize that I too am at fault. well, i'm not going to apologize for that, because that it's too late, but I am going to do the right thing and work toward any positive encouragment as a means of progress from now on. It doesn't matter how much we recycle, how many animals we save, how we say no to drugs and alchol, as long as we continue to destroy human interaction and relationships.

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I think that is certainly a valid observation. I'm not really into internalizing other people's bad behaviour too much though. If you see someone else doing something wrong, I think your first, second, and third response should be to question or correct their actions, not just look inside yourself for your own guilt. Sure, you should evaluate your actions, but I'm not from the school of it must be all our own fault. I don't think we are all equal in our responsibility for rampant negativity. When one person is out of line, I think sharing in the responsibility might be a nice egalitarian approach, but that means that we fail to isolate the actual bad behaviour. That just makes it harder to identify and correct.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

I say 'we' because we are all guilty of it

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don't count me in

I like fights... I prefer it in an organized setting of some sort so I can bet on it but I genuinely like fights...boxing, mixed martial arts, underground street fights, whatever...as entertainment they are grand and good. In the day to day world...they happen for more reasons than I can list and to be honest a good majority of them are justifiable. We've done our best as a society to curb them but it'd be a huge mistake to end it or ban it.

It's in our very nature to fight. Talk can only go so far and for some it has no value...so really in those situations all you have is naked and raw force. You can try to be as progressive minded as you want but at some point you'll have to use your fists. This is however tied with the kind of people you associate with statisticly but even amoung hardend intellectuals, pacificsts, and the most progressive minded...raw force does occur...granted it's more hilarious and less threatening but jokes aside our prison system alone is filled with "smart people" who've commited some pretty violent crimes. It's really more to do with how far you can be pushed, how much you can take, and what you personally see as a justifiable use of force.

I wouldn't want to live in a world without some sort of fighting and violence just as I wouldn't want to live in a world where it went unchecked.

At the end of the day though it's what other peopel do to us that cause one to want to get into a fight anyhow...and lets be honest we'll never reach a state where we all get along and NOT want to beat on one another.

I don't think we need to rid ourselves of destructive influences as much as we need to stop trying to be such overly peace minded and deal with agression and violence as a constant part of who and what we are. In the right enviornment it can be quite enjoyable...and beneficial.

Not everyone wants to be a serial killer and not everyone wants to be a peace minded soul...trying to make a world where both can find a place is a challenge and really one where neither can dominate, nor should they.

Once again, I bow to the wisdom of TZ. A very insiteful point of view that I share. And I dont have to type as much because of it. THX

I beg to differ. I understand your point of view, but it's a matter of personal freedom. those who advocate the use of violence rarely have such a live and let live point of view, and even if violence isn't directly inflicted against people that don't want it (as it is in most cases), those people still have to suffer the blacklashes that violence between other's cause in the environment around them. I'm all for people being able to do what they enjoy, but I think they have a resonsibility as well. if violence ran rampant and was accepted it won't create a balance between people respecitbly, it will make a world where peace is impossible. violence by it's very nature is dominating so whenever someone uses violence, even in justified circumstances (which is a matter of opinion), it shifts the balance.

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Originally Posted by Evilbink

Once again, I bow to the wisdom of TZ. A very insiteful point of view that I share. And I dont have to type as much because of it. THX

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Just to illustrate the point, it is not always your fault that you had to fight. I met a couple girlfriends for drinks just the other night. One was on a blind date with a new guy she had met and they were hanging out with some of his friends.

I sat down on a barstool around a table and his one friend refused to move his foot off my stool. When I tried to ask him politely, then tapped him on the shoulder, he looked me in the eye and said, "Whatever, dude." He was clearly looking for a fight - I was just the first guy to come along. I discreetly stomped my boot down on his ankle - he still didn't move. I balled my car keys up in my fist just in case he was going to get up, when the other girl grabbed me by the arm and defused the situation by taking me up to the bar for a drink.

It would have appeared that we were fighting over a barstool and that it was bullshit macho posturing, but the reality was that he was replacing me with some pain he had earlier in the day, and was ready to battle me in lieu of that pain. Even though I didn't start it, I would have finished it if the other guy was that desperate for a fight. Simple self-defense.

Forrest, I don't justify that behaviour by internalizing it, as you say. but I feel that to put off such behaviour as simply "someone else's fault" may work for relieving my conscience, but doesn't excuse or forgive minor infractions commited by myself and others, and I think that to examine the overall actions and feelings as a whole and thier interactions is neccesary to the maintaince and function of a community. that was my point about it being all of our faults and responsibility, directly or indirectly to that standard. some people feel otherwise, and that's ok, but I don't feel that isolating people is progressive.

Sometimes, you have to put or shut up. I am certainly self-critical, but I will not rationalize others behavior by my own. Generally speaking, you have to find a new set of friends. I've said enough about my choices that I am certain you know what it means when I eulogize people online.

OEC

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

after witnessing a fight tonight caused by someone trying to perpetrate bullshit macho posteuring, it really distressed me and made me think. where does it get us to tear each other down with hostility?

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where does it get you to just sit there and not do anything about it? it sounds to me like your not much of a fighter with your fists but you are a fighter when it comes to words. if I see some jarhead picking on someone smaller than him I would step in. now if the smaller one did something to deserve an ass whuppin then hes on his own. Im not one to go out of my way to fight with anyone but there are plenty of assholes that deserve a good swift kick in the ass and Im not about to let anyone do anything to harm the ones I care about. so I say violence is not only justifiable but it is necessary to stand up for your rights and the rights of others.

that's a good point devil 13. in this particular scenario there was very little that I could do. however, as a whole on the subject, maybe I was unclear, by violence in this instance I don't really mean the physical act but the motivation behind it. someone that attacks other people out of anger or hostility with the intent to hurt or inspire fear in others is what I consider to be violence, or unjustified force. like you said tinstar someone who's "looking for a fight". I have always advocated self-defense and protection of others, through the use of force if neccesary. You have the right not to be victimised.

i'm completly with Devil13 on this one,it's a good thought morning,i wish it could be like that,But some people need it,At times violence is fully justified......just not nearly as much as it often is........

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Originally Posted by devil13

where does it get you to just sit there and not do anything about it? it sounds to me like your not much of a fighter with your fists but you are a fighter when it comes to words. if I see some jarhead picking on someone smaller than him I would step in. now if the smaller one did something to deserve an ass whuppin then hes on his own. Im not one to go out of my way to fight with anyone but there are plenty of assholes that deserve a good swift kick in the ass and Im not about to let anyone do anything to harm the ones I care about. so I say violence is not only justifiable but it is necessary to stand up for your rights and the rights of others.

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Very well said.

Chinese proverb: Why fight when you can run.

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Originally Posted by Trotter

Chinese proverb: Why fight when you can run.

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I think the proverb goes: Why fight when you can just stand there and bleed :D

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Originally Posted by Trotter

Chinese proverb: Why fight when you can run.

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No I think it goes...

"Why fight when you can run...unless you're surrounded then you're fucked."

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Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

No I think it goes...

"Why fight when you can run...unless you're surrounded then you're fucked."

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Hmm. Don't think it went like that, but ill double check and get back to you...never

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Originally Posted by Trotter

Chinese proverb: Why fight when you can run.

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Sun Tzu would tend to disagree. :)

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Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

I like fights... I prefer it in an organized setting of some sort so I can bet on it but I genuinely like fights...boxing, mixed martial arts, underground street fights, whatever...as entertainment they are grand and good.

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do you get into many fights yourself?

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Originally Posted by sheramil

do you get into many fights yourself?

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Not these days...hence my love for watching them. My fist fighting days are long over, not due to age or lack of passion, but simple day to day life. You just can't deal with MOST people (not all mind you) with fists. Even when it's justifiable the law is not on your side so the old addage of "walking away" really does come in handy. Their are just too many cases of the one winning the fight being arrested for assault or worse being jumped later by the friends of the guy beaten. Plus I was never the fair fighter. I never had the weight or raw strength behind me to match the bullies and guys who wanted to fight me so I had to aim for areas like the ribs, throat, near the back of the jaw, ears, and if possible snap a finger or other bone. Sounds more grusome than it is mind you...after all when are you picked on or hassled by one your OWN size you know? I don't like to bleed and I don't like to be picked on...so...they got what they asked for. It was pretty rare, maybe a few times a school year. I only ever hurt two people bad enough that it caused me trouble but I did lose a few to balance it out.

These days...it's just easier to have friends who are cops or be civil...it gets you quite far that way.