Printable View
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."Second Amendment to the U.S. ConstitutionNo reading of the 2nd Amendment implies hunting with firearms.:1orglaugh :thumb:
OEC
i agree, that amendment was made with the intent that people would be abl;e to defend the country (or overthrow the government) if things got bad, not hunting. although i dont have a problem with hunting as long as you eat what you kill or sell it as meat.
I respect hunting more if it is done out of necessity. Obviously, one may have to defend against an animal in rare instances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidthorazine
OEC
this is my cats take on hunting
http://www.cbrnp.com/RNP/Flower/PROF...%20Artwork.jpg
Ok, i may open a can of worms, but here it goes....
I am a hunter, born a met eating Bambi killing hunter. I was raised a hunter, a thumber skinning Hunter. I was eating things that were brought home not from the store but from the field.
It was how i was raised and how I want to raide my kids... I know that there are people that don't agree with it, but next you look out your window and see some Brown bear eating your garbage..Don't blame the hunters from the wild animal ecrouching upon our territory.. They were here first.
Don't start on how it is not enviromental to hunt.. that is a load of crap.. As a hunter I have learned more ways that HUMANS are harming this rock, than any other species onthis planet.
We as humans were created with two things that give us an edge in the circle of life... Free -will and inovation. The free will to choose how we live our lives and inovation that helps us live that life.
Free - Will is just that... Free funcking will, I am sick of the tree-hugging hippy fucks that tell me I can't go hunting.. I am sick of the money-grubbing greedy bastards that are taking away the hunting grounds. I am going to scream and blow a hole in head of the next mother-fucking redneck that says that they need to go hunting, just to kill something. That is fuckled up.. Hunt what you eat, kill what you eat.
Gun control has nothing to with hunters... Yes there are those assholes out there that think that.. But no, control laws are there so that stupid ass people can feel safe from "Criminals"... those same criminals that don't give a rats ass about he god-damn gun laws...
there i said my peace. BC :thumb:
I'm opposed to gun control, that was kind of the point of the post. As to hunting, I can respect it when it is done out of necessity. Dunno about tree-hugging hippies. There are very real environmental concerns, I wouldn't specifically link them to hunting. Factory farming is a different story, however.
OEC
:1orglaughQuote:
Originally Posted by VoldtaEngler
My Cat sees a new race to run in Spain:
http://www.runningofthenudes.com/photos/2006-t01.jpg
I am like others of the view 'what you hunt you eat' though this is not really what the Second Amendment is really about.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."
Is the right of people to protect the state or country so it maybe free for the people and against those who maybe wishing to overthrow it. At the time of writting this was mainly in respect to the British from whose control a war had just been fought.
I am assuming you are referring to an individual as opposed to a collective right. The founders opposed the creation of a standing army in the United States. It was a protection from government: not for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by seeker
OEC
Is this a discussion about hunting or the rights granted by the second amendment?
I'll say it straight up, hunting is fucking stupid and pointless. The government puts deer and other such animals in a place and fences it off for the express purpose of hunting. These animals typically have human interaction all of their lives so they are used to humans, in other words they aren't afraid of humans for the simple fact that even though humans kill them, more often it is humans that are helping them or at least seen in a passive way. this is obvious in the fact that these species are endangered in other areas not designated for hunting, because that's the only way that people seem to give a shit about preserving the environment. When a hunter encounters a deer it's usually while he is camouflaged or hiding in the trees and he then uses a high powered rifle that's capable of targeting well over 100 yards.
So to put it simply, modern day hunting is about as "natural" and a matter of "sport" as playing HALO. The only thing real about it is that you're really killing a real thing.
I do have some respect for people that hunt using actual feats of skill, pretty much just bow hunting because no one uses any other less than that for the most part. But the fact remains that it's just senseless slaughter, because there is no good reason to eat meat and it's cruel because it's unnecessary with our technological abilities.
Regardless of how well intentioned you might think that you are, if you choose to ignore the biological reality that living things have an existence that is independent of you or your perceived superiority, you are still a person that is exploitative and bottom-line destructive. I really can't honesty believe or expect someone with that mindset to be able to put anything else before themselves and act in an unselfish way.
Sure animals eat other animals, and I know that argument is on the tip of your tongue, but I'm going to refrain from going into details about the difference, and just say that even non-industrialized humans have numerous options that other animals do not.
I'm not trying to get all self-righteous and act like that makes me a great person, I think a lot of the stuff that I have to live with is really fucked up-Such as factory farming and industrial agriculture, which are without a doubt some of the most heinous and destructive things on the planet for everyone, including humans. To me it's just a matter of trying to give as much as you take, and I just try my best to work toward that aim.
I intended it more as mocking out hunting. The shirt kind of days it all (ie how my cat would look at firearms as opposed to anything serious about the 2nd) I generally think hunting is pathetic unless it is out of necessity. Factory farming is just plain sick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morning Glory
OEC
yeah factory farming is horrible, thats why i try to only eat free range meat, or stuff that is bought from hunters (although the only thing you can buy from hunters around here is venison). But as for the whole we dont need to eat meat argument, i will say that humans are carnivorous by nature, if you look at the teeth of a person they have canines an other sharp teeth made for thje purpose of shredding meat. So vegitarianism is out for a lot of people that cant oversome the urge to eat meat, and i feel that hunting for your meat is a much more enviromentally sound way of doing it that supporting factory farms which are bad for animals, your healt, and the enviroment. At least with hunting you only kill what you need and arent producing tons of excess for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEyedCat
Actually humans are omnivores, not carnivores or herbivores. We are scavengers who got reall good at it.
I am not a big fan of the hunting culture in the US, but there seems to be some misconceptions about hunting. Deer are really hard to get without using the front bumper of a car. Most hunters go out with camo and a high power rifle and come back with 1 or 2 bucks a year if they hunt regularly. It is not easy to shoot one that dies not want to be shot.
OEC I agree that no one should hunt your cat.
Carry on.
I think everyone even hunters would agree that killing for sport is retarded. I would tend to believe that that kind of crap is pretty rare. I don't go hunting but most of my family are hunters and I think they should be able to go hunting if they want to. They eat the shit. Hanging out in the woods all day drinking beers and bullshitting sounds kind of fun to me though. I think a lot of hunter go 'hunting' just for that kind of stuff. I want to get a pistol at some point. Target shooting is fun.
Has anybody seen the movie 'Surviving the Game' with ice-t and Gary Busey (the great one)? It's awesome, Busey is totally coked-up throughout the whole movie. He's super intense! It's a hunting related movie.
Yeah the dentition is indicative of omnivore. Anecdotally, I know people live healthy lives as vegetarians. I am not in a position to argue that as a universal, however. My cat came from Wisconsin, one of the worst states regarding ferals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cafe_Post_Mortem
OEC
Hunting is more humane than say factory farming. The more immediate goal would be to move back to humane farming methods. Factory farming can be argued on environmental, humane, human nutrition (animals on 'roids and stress), and even govt subsidies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe Cutter
OEC
PS Thanks for all the comments.
Hunting , well I guess if you gotta, me I just go to the fridge
my cats don't hunt, they just kill
yeah I do know one guy who is possibely the only person (in the First World) who lives under circumstances of meat eating that I can respect. He raises chickens and geese and he provides a living for far more than he kills, in other words, although he does kill them on occasion, he doesn't raise them simply as a commodity to be killed. that's the distinction. He also explains to them the reason why he is doing it and thanks them for sacrificing themselves to provide for him. I know it sounds silly, but hey, so does a lot of shit that's far less worthwhile that most of us do everyday. It doesn't hurt that he spends nearly all of his time fighting for the environment (for purposes other than commericial gain) and against oppression of all sorts.
even still, i'd like to sit down and have a talk about soy someday.
nature is not kind i saw a hawk come and snatch the momy quail with a bunch of little 1 inch babies ,deer come to my front yard every night i've never ben hunting and i would not kill an animal unless i was hungry
i have a couple guns but i mainly just use them to play with shooting cans and little clay disks that are hurled into the air
my 45 glock is real fun although my friends new springfield xd45acp is really neat
i dunno depends on who you're hunting...Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe Cutter
ever see "the hunted" with bencio del toro, and some old guy named tommy lee jones? basic plot-trained special forces black ops killer goes batshit, becomes a vegetarian, and starts dismembering hunters in the pac. northwest...or are they just simple hunters? quote "what do you think? your guns against my knife?" and "what if there was something higher than man on the food chain, and it had lost all respect for man?"
... i have more respect for the fella who goes out to hunt his own meat than the one who buys thirdword beef from a fast food joint... if he uses a bow, so much the better. if he uses a spear, cool. if he uses a knife, even better.
but the only one i'm going to give real props to is the one who goes out and kills the damn beastie with his bare hands, guts and dresses the animal with his teeth, devours the organmeats, and entrails raw, and unwashed on site, and cracks the bones for the marrow, and leaves the flesh for the jackals the way REAL carnivores do...
otherwise all this 'man the predator' shite is pussy talk.
all this from a 'treehugger' who can slap the goddamn eyeballs out'cher haid. no shit.
i once dared one of my stupid drunken friends to go take a bite out of a live cow to prove to me he was a 'carnivore'.
not to put any dietary view on anyone else, eat what ya gotta eat... but fuckin' c'mon get real.
Fuck the Nuge. the Nuge is a faggot.
Your preaching to th choir brother, I'm WAY against factory farming. I'm a veggie, although I have no problem with hunters who eat what they kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEyedCat
^I couldn't agree more. I've never seen 'the hunted' though, is it worth a rent?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Friendly
Just out of curiosity, why is it considered better to hunt with poor tools that are more likely to maim an animal leading to death by infection than to hunt with more efficient tools? Why is it better to chew up the animal at the kill site than to use what we have learned to make more efficient use of the animal? Real carnivores do not fight fair, and if a lion could use a gun there would be a lot less zebras in the world. Personally I think the only nobility that comes from hunting is becoming as good at it as you can so you kill what you hunt and use what you kill, not using exotic weapons to look more butch.
But yeah, humans aren't carnivores or preditors. Just really talented scavengers.
That's a fair point, I hadn't though about the animal suffering. I guess it seems more natural to kill the old fashioned way. It's is also more difficult so I think the animal would be more appreciated. Looking butch is just a bonus. :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cafe_Post_Mortem
point is if you can't kill it quickly and efficiently with what nature gave you, than quit talkin' that 'man the hunter'/'natural born killer' shit.
using a spear or knife badly doesn't count... and btw there are people out there who can kill animals very quickly using stone tipped spears, etc.
your 'canine' teeth aren't much good for tearing into anything more vicious than a mango skin... i'm sure you could eat a mouse if you had to, but c'mon, really.
think golem from LOTR tearing open the fish with his bare teeth... mm-mmm.
human's aren't biologically adapted to eat anything more frisky than a grasshopper.
it's a tedious discussion though.
I disagree with the statement that a lion would use a gun against zebra. I guess I do need to go into the animal sociology, that I said I wouldn't get into earlier...
the first and formost one is that lions don't store food externally, although some animals do. a lion kills because it is hungry and by extension more specifically because the grazing animals that live in it's habitat are large and provide it with the nutrients that it needs, and are simply always easier to catch than a predatory animal.
this is the primary difference between humans and other animals. the lion doesn't have any philosophical notions about what it does, and if it is not hungry then it will not kill, because it has no need to. the lion doesn't have any reason to maximize the most efficient means of hunting. they don't organize all of the lions to go out and hunt at the same time to ensure that they will get the kill.
of course to us, who view everything as being an adversary to conquer, we'd think that just the fact that one kills and one dies would put the zerba and the lion against each other. But the example I demonstrated and the fact that the zebra never make an effort to avoid the lions, even though they know that there is a time when the lions will try and eat them, shows the special relationship among the animals. By simple convention when the lion hunts it will get the easiest kill. by having the lion kill off the slow or sick zebras, it ensures that they are removed from the breeding pool and actually helps the zebras to reproduce. all these reasons ammount to a population of zebra that is always going to be higher than lions, and this works out great for both species.
That's why I advocate primitive hunting techniques. so that maybe people could get back in touch with thier roots, which was a lifestyle that all other animals practice that works with nature and other animals, instead of in competition against it. when we remove our role in the natural community and create abstractions against reality, as we do in our every day to day life, then we lose our humanity. That's why I said that hunting was just like a videogame, just like everything else.
i suppose i should also mention i haven't got anything against hunting per se... except for fucking ted nugent... that guy sucks.
the 2nd amendment doesn't mention hunting because i am sure the framers of the constitution couldn't comprehend people not being allowed to hunt. the concept just wouldn't compute to them.
i've got no problems with killing.
i kill roaches, wasps, mosquitos, mice, and rats all the time... i just don't put them in my mouth.
With regards to factory farming: It is especially sad that the taxpayer is underwriting this practice. Contrary to political rhetoric, most agricultural subsidies go to corporations that engage in factory farming. I don't think a lot of people realize the extent to which social priorities are written into the tax code. The natural response is to become anti-capitalism. In reality, incremental changes could alleviate a lot of these practices. Naturally, the companies receiving the benefits will fight it tooth and nail.
To make a counterargument: It is hard to say what costs would or would not be borne by the consumer. I believe, however, that distortions in the tax code tend to create these problems as much as the market does. Any odious practice can be disincentivized by changes in the tax code. The practice itself will often disappear without even being outlawed.
OEC