When is it anti-"semitism" de jour?

I can respect the arguments against the actions of the Israeli government. The situation is complex and people are being brutalized on both sides. Even amongst some of my personal friends, however, I see the argument being increasingly radicalized.

Some believe Israel to simply be an imperial outpost of the US. ok
Some believe Israel to exist due to guilt over the holocaust. ok
Some consider the IDF as brutal thugs. ok.

The bottom line is: 6 Million souls reside in Israel. They are a state. I have seen other states delegitimated with brutal consequences. Do some in the arab community have legitimate grievance? absolutely. To delegitimize Israel at this point in time, however, will have an end result far worse than the current situation.

I see the term "zionism" consistently used as a missive. I see Israel compared to Nazi Germany. I see a pass given, by some, to the brutal tactics of certain islamic groups. The goals of Iran, Hezbollah and others has been stated repeatedly, the obliteration of Israel. I see very little mention given to middle east leaders' treatment of their own citizenry.

I appreciate the fact that those questioning Israel on this group do make sensible arguments.

I fear that some out there do not appreciate the ramifications of their viewpoints. At some point, the practical consequence of anti "zionism" becomes anti-"semitism" (Arabs also being semites, it is hard to formulate the correct terms)

At what point does one call it jew hatred? In practice, some of the views being pontificated out there lead to the empowerment of those who hate jews de jour.

OEC

Sometimes a conversation one has elsewhere sparks interesting questions and all, but your posts lately have read oddly like you are having conversations with people who aren't here.

I don't think there has been a whole lot of discussion of Israel here at all, so your points about what some people might think are really baffling. I don't think anyone here has said much of what you are talking about at all.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaG

Sometimes a conversation one has elsewhere sparks interesting questions and all, but your posts lately have read oddly like you are having conversations with people who aren't here.

I don't think there has been a whole lot of discussion of Israel here at all, so your points about what some people might think are really baffling. I don't think anyone here has said much of what you are talking about at all.

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Oh sorry. Was just asking generally. I just see a lot of anti-arab and/or anti-jewish sentiment in the world. Not here. My apologies if you thought I meant that. I think the move is getting to me:1orglaugh

OEC

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Originally Posted by OneEyedCat

Oh sorry. Was just asking generally. I just see a lot of anti-arab and/or anti-jewish sentiment in the world. Not here. My apologies if you thought I meant that. I think the move is getting to me:1orglaugh

OEC

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Phew. I'm glad you hadn't seen that here. I think Blue Blood people tend to be way cooler and more open-minded and just generally capable of critical thinking than that. But, yeah, moving can be crazy stressful.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaG

Phew. I'm glad you hadn't seen that here. I think Blue Blood people tend to be way cooler and more open-minded and just generally capable of critical thinking than that. But, yeah, moving can be crazy stressful.

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I've had discussions with people about Israel here. They have been very productive. God, I feel bad you thought that. This is the only place I've even had decent conversations about the middle east.

OEC

eh, my problem is all the people fighting over a country a third the size of Kansas. Of course my solution would be making Jerusalem and independent state (like the vatican). Or the US cutting all funding to Egypt, Jordan, and Israel and then let them sort it out. I don't care who is in control of Israel as long as it's not Jerry Falwell.

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Or the US cutting all funding to Egypt, Jordan, and Israel and then let them sort it out.

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if we could do that to every country we give money to, we'd be a so better off.

speaking of antisemitism....anyone read what mel gibson had to say about jews? heres the link

yeah, I don't know about this one. I have nothing against the jewish faith, I have nothing against any people wordwide that might consider themselves (acurately or not) ethnic jews, I have nothing against the citizens of present day isreal anymore than anyone else on a personal level... I DO have objections to the political and military actions of some members of isreal, but I have the same feelings toward anyone who engages in such actions. I have an objection to the concept of the state of Isreal, but I have the same objections to any state that is based on war and seizure of land. I really don't see how this can be seen as being anti-semitic.

States are based on war and/or the seizure of land, and they are held by force of arms.

I fully support Israel, and not just because their enemies are mostly loathsome muslim fundies.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

yeah, I don't know about this one. I have nothing against the jewish faith, I have nothing against any people wordwide that might consider themselves (acurately or not) ethnic jews, I have nothing against the citizens of present day isreal anymore than anyone else on a personal level... I DO have objections to the political and military actions of some members of isreal, but I have the same feelings toward anyone who engages in such actions. I have an objection to the concept of the state of Isreal, but I have the same objections to any state that is based on war and seizure of land. I really don't see how this can be seen as being anti-semitic.

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I don't think we are planning on giving our land back to the British, the French, the Spanish, or the Native Americans, but, until we do, I don't think, as Americans, we have the position to tell other people to give away a single acre.

In point of fact, Israel became a state because the British gave it to them. The British might have promised it to more than one party, but they are funny like that.

well, you know that i've made all those same arguements before about America, and the sad reality is the same can said for nearly every place. In the case of some countries, you have people that have conquered and stolen and taken the land illegitmately... and there decendants have been there for ten generations. You can't say that a teenager in Isreal deserves to be homeless or else move away to a place that no one they know has ever even seen, because of things that happened to thier grandparents. The same can be said for the palestinians too though, because their circumstances were equally unfair.

In this day and age it's not possible to give back the land. Take a place like Australia, that wiped out the native population. So now you can't even trace a line of decent to indignous ownership, the earliest ancestors of the Australians were white people, so who are you supposed to give it back to? No, we can't give away the land, but we can give up the land. Give up the concept of Imperial rule, and recognize the right of other people and other beliefs to live just the same as us, and with us. In short, I say use it, but don't abuse it.

In that case of Isreal that would mean allowing Palestinians specfically, but really anyone else too, to come there peacefully and worship as they see fit. For the sites that they both share, and who none really have any legitimate right to above the rest, they should either be shared or torn down as a symbol of the peace process. That would mean coming to the realization that holy lands are the places where people and cultures remain, not dirt and stones and ancient history.

I see war as a necassery part of human civilization, where would any of us be without it?

happy, not having billions of people living in poverty, not having millions of children enslaved, not having 1/4 of all women being the victims of sexual assault..,