The word "Goth" means what to people?

To me, it means nothing. It does serve as a vague reference point when looking for some of the literature, music, and fashion I prefer. I see "goth" being used as an adjective and a noun. As an adjective, I might accept it as descriptive of an eclectic genre. As a noun? It implies a specific identity vis a vis the world. I have always found such self-definition very limiting.

Don't define "gothic". I've been around way too long to bother with a hodgepodge of UK media application to Bauhaus. The BatCave years, books penned by Mercer etc etc. Define the word goth as a noun *only*. What does it mean to you?

OEC

P.S. I hope noone goes personal with each other. I don't care personally where anyone stands, if they have bipolar disorder, or dance naked to Bauhaus in the rain. As I said, goth means nothing to me. I have just seen the word so many times on this jaunt back, there must be "goth" in the air.:1orglaugh :thumb:

To me its nothing more than a label used for lack of better words to describe a certain style of dress, music and ultimately a subculture. Gothic, on the other hand describes to me an architectural style or calls to mind the Visigoths, whom i highly doubt wore silver vinyl pants. But its one of those words that is a necessary evil... at least until a better term is coined, that in some ways in its defining of a subculture, alienates the people that inhabit such subs from culture and society as a whole and makes said members of the sub part of less than the greater whole and not a part of the rest of the world. The word/label ironically, kind of depresses me and so i refuse to use it to describe myself or my own style. There was a time when I saw the word as a flag to rally about, something to cling to as I struggled to define myself in my years as a boggled and bewildered teenager. Having spent time doing some real soul searching and coming to terms with a lot of the experiences in my life I no longer feel the need to label or define myself in such a way and the word Goth has become nothing more or less than the arrangement letters.

S

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Originally Posted by ScarlettSin

To me its nothing more than a label used for lack of better words to describe a certain style of dress, music and ultimately a subculture. Gothic, on the other hand describes to me an architectural style or calls to mind the Visigoths, whom i highly doubt wore silver vinyl pants. But its one of those words that is a necessary evil... at least until a better term is coined, that in some ways in its defining of a subculture, alienates the people that inhabit such subs from culture and society as a whole and makes said members of the sub part of less than the greater whole and not a part of the rest of the world. The word/label ironically, kind of depresses me and so i refuse to use it to describe myself or my own style. There was a time when I saw the word as a flag to rally about, something to cling to as I struggled to define myself in my years as a boggled and bewildered teenager. Having spent time doing some real soul searching and coming to terms with a lot of the experiences in my life I no longer feel the need to label or define myself in such a way and the word Goth has become nothing more or less than the arrangement letters.

S

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I can definitely relate to that. I see what you describe as quite healthy actually. You needed a refererence point until you were truly able to know yourself. I did as well. (The image of warring ostro v. visigoths in pvc is in my head now:1orglaugh )

Obviously, the word still grabs our attention. I kind of dig on this (sort of) revival of the word "deathrock". Even there, its meaningless. It just seems to have a higher % rate of stuff I like. Does it piss you off when you're still associated with it? Personally, I've never found a subculture that even operates functionally in the way you describe. It always came down to me, my friends, and the "other".

Thanks for such a thoughtful response.:thumb:

OEC

Goth is a style of architecture

:yeeaaahh:

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Originally Posted by Bondage Clown

Goth is a style of architecture

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Well. The original reference to "gothic" architecture was considered pejorative. A neo-Gothic revival took place in the UK. Someone like mindGames could unpack that issue, but it really wasn't what I was getting at. I don't know if the etymology of the word "gothic" in english had a meaning past a criticism of the architecture or was assimilated. It clearly was influential in giving rise to what become known as "gothic literature". The Castle of Otranto by Walpole being an obvious example.

My only interest would be in the meaning of "goth" as a noun in '07. I'm thinking mostly in terms of self or societal imposition of a specific identity. I don't define it at all personally. I certainly respect the possibility of self-growth using it as a reference point. :thumb:

OEC

there is no definition...it's just another gang name

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Originally Posted by Mr Karl

there is no definition...it's just another gang name

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I would tend to agree. Although as an adjective, it can be helpful. Carrie Carolin's praise of this site is definitely awesome. She's been around since the beginning and knows the inet like the back of her hand. So: I'd say it is helpful as a description, but ubiquitous as a thing-unto-itself. Nothing wrong with that. I prefer "gothic", but that is more my ambivalence towards the english language. So yeah, I think you're right.

OEC

sorry

but goth to me means a pasty face black trenchcoat wearing antisocial non conformist individual

unfortunatly it turns into a bit of a paradox if a group forms of goths

i dont like the term

just like a surfer dude instantly causes me to visualize spicoli from "ridgemont"

or a jock ted mcgintly from "nerds"

not a damn thing...but emo means goth lite to me

Dumb kids who wore black and thought they were vampires or werewolves.

Now to me the word goth means people that're mostly dumb kids but with a few amazing, intelligent and wonderful peope who...think they are vampires and werewolves.

...:D /ducks


But seriously, the word goth to me denotes a group of people or a lifestyle that is much different than the normal culture of the area. It also means hot girls with mental issues and daddy problems.

It means hot fucking chick is what it means.

Sweet Lord, them pics them girls put up here.

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Originally Posted by EasyRider

It means hot fucking chick is what it means.

Sweet Lord, them pics them girls put up here.

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So goth = chicks to u? What would be your soundtrack to the sex?

OEC

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Originally Posted by Velvet-Tongue

Dumb kids who wore black and thought they were vampires or werewolves.

Now to me the word goth means people that're mostly dumb kids but with a few amazing, intelligent and wonderful peope who...think they are vampires and werewolves.

...:D /ducks


But seriously, the word goth to me denotes a group of people or a lifestyle that is much different than the normal culture of the area. It also means hot girls with mental issues and daddy problems.

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That's harsh. The last sentence did evoke a giggle though. It isn't usually true even when they define, but it made me giggle just a tad.:1orglaugh :thumb:

OEC

PS By implication, would not the boy hotties thus have mommy problems?:1orglaugh :thumb: . If I were to self-define, it'd be deathrock. I'm definitely a mama's boy and proud of it. I certainly can't match my superiors in androgynous hotness, but I have found many of them to be amongst the sweetest men I've ever known.:thumb:

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Originally Posted by shiki

not a damn thing...but emo means goth lite to me

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so emo = not a damn thing lite? Fair enough.:1orglaugh :thumb:

OEC

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Originally Posted by OneEyedCat

So goth = chicks to u? What would be your soundtrack to the sex?

OEC

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I'm not into guys, so they don't register on my radar.

As for the soundtrack, well that depends. Are they sleeping with me or with each other?

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Originally Posted by EasyRider

I'm not into guys, so they don't register on my radar.

As for the soundtrack, well that depends. Are they sleeping with me or with each other?

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Sleeping with you. It's your fantasy man. Once you can picture it, it will happen. (if it includes girl and girl great, if not great). I'm just curious what the word evokes in people. The answers are quite diverse. So *Goth Fantasy* Yours. How does it sound?

OEC

Goth to me is a state of mind. The original meaning of Goth was "barbarian", which means if you claim to be a Goth, you're really saying you're barbaric and beyond the normal state. This is still partially true. Goth is still considered to be something to be kept on the outside, something "normal people" try to avoid.

We like to say to the Establishment 'Here we are, we're the people you don't think should exist! We're not going away! We're going to scare your children!'

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Originally Posted by Black Spiral Dancer

Goth to me is a state of mind. The original meaning of Goth was "barbarian", which means if you claim to be a Goth, you're really saying you're barbaric and beyond the normal state. This is still partially true. Goth is still considered to be something to be kept on the outside, something "normal people" try to avoid.

We like to say to the Establishment 'Here we are, we're the people you don't think should exist! We're not going away! We're going to scare your children!'

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So you would trace its origins all the way back to the ostrogoths and visigoths. In what sense to you mean barbaric? I would generally relate that to pillaging villages. I think, perhaps, you would at least have to trace it forward to the denigration of gothic architecture. From there, you hit The Castle of Otranto by Walpole and the literary genre. Then, somehow, you tie it in to the present day.

Would you see a "goth" then as perhaps representing the repressed demons of the "establishment" as you say? Perhaps the fear is actually a fear of their own darkness? Or are you simply reacting? If you are making statements to the "establishment", I would see it as a bit reactionary.

OEC

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Originally Posted by OneEyedCat

Sleeping with you. It's your fantasy man. Once you can picture it, it will happen. (if it includes girl and girl great, if not great). I'm just curious what the word evokes in people. The answers are quite diverse. So *Goth Fantasy* Yours. How does it sound?

OEC

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Marian, by Sisters of Mercy, followed by Ritual Noise, by Covenant.
On repeat.

As for "Goth", it derives from the tall/skinny/depressing architecture of Gothic Revival.

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Originally Posted by EasyRider

Marian, by Sisters of Mercy, followed by Ritual Noise, by Covenant.
On repeat.

As for "Goth", it derives from the tall/skinny/depressing architecture of Gothic Revival.

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Marian on repeat? damn.

Gothic Architecture had nothing to do with the historical ostrogoths and visigoths in a literal sense. Like BSD said, it was a derogatory term used by some to associate it with the "barbaric culture" of the goths. Hell, you could reject the label "gothic" with regards to architecture and even maintain an identity as a "goth" as barbaric (word actually coming from berber tribe) This is getting a bit tangential.

OEC

Well, okay, if you insist on the full story.

The Goths as a bunch of degenerate barbarians built these tall skinny structures with imposing groin vaults, etc. for which the style is most famous.

In the Victorian era, there was an architectural revival of this style, including the introduction of a dark Romantic aesthetic, all windswept hillsides, doomed lovers and Victorian Novel Disease.

When Andi Sex Gang came out dressed in a proto-Goth style, someone dismissed him as looking like a "Gothic Pixie" and the name for the burgeoning batcave style stuck.

Why "Damn" for Marian on repeat?

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Originally Posted by EasyRider

Well, okay, if you insist on the full story.

The Goths as a bunch of degenerate barbarians built these tall skinny structures with imposing groin vaults, etc. for which the style is most famous.

In the Victorian era, there was an architectural revival of this style, including the introduction of a dark Romantic aesthetic, all windswept hillsides, doomed lovers and Victorian Novel Disease.

When Andi Sex Gang came out dressed in a proto-Goth style, someone dismissed him as looking like a "Gothic Pixie" and the name for the burgeoning batcave style stuck.

Why "Damn" for Marian on repeat?

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It just surprised me. Nothing wrong with it. Marian is just such an oldschool club standby. I'm sure I've fucked to it but never on repeat. If it works for u, go for it. I'm sure you'll find it.:thumb:

OEC

Well, you see, OneEyedCat, not to cast aspersions, but the song would run out before I do. Hence the need for Repeat.

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Originally Posted by EasyRider

Well, you see, OneEyedCat, not to cast aspersions, but the song would run out before I do. Hence the need for Repeat.

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One would hope :1orglaugh I just prefer to mix it up a bit. I have about 25K songs.

OEC

Well, I just remembered that this fantasy includes two women, so sign me up for

Marian, Dark Entries, Children (the Mission), Ritual Noise, most of the Sequencer EP by Covenant, and a bit of VNV Nation as filler.

On repeat.

Groovin. That is a sweet transition.:thumb:

OEC

Well, I have the soundtrack. And with a face like mine, that's all I'm gettin hehe

i really don't mind whatever labels people choose to apply to themselves but I hate when people put labels on me.

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Originally Posted by shiki

i really don't mind whatever labels people choose to apply to themselves but I hate when people put labels on me.

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The only time I'll accept a label is when I see a group of people being fucked with. For example, I don't define myself in terms of sexual preference. In law school, I joined OUTLaw. Someone has to take a stand. People can assume what they may. I don't believe in labels, but at the same time I won't accept unequal rights based on them (real or perceived).:thumb:

OEC

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Originally Posted by EasyRider

Well, I just remembered that this fantasy includes two women, so sign me up for

Marian, Dark Entries, Children (the Mission), Ritual Noise, most of the Sequencer EP by Covenant, and a bit of VNV Nation as filler.

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Dark Entries? Now that is funny!

To answer OEC, I think how I see Goth is Something that is outside the normal way of life. True, I enjoy going against the grain, but I don't do it because I;m reacting to anything. I have always been different from others around me. I mean, I was born Feet First (which is apparently very rare, so I was born to be different) A lot of people say Goth is just a type of music, with strange looking fans. I see Goth as a state of mind, something you find comes naturally.

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Originally Posted by Black Spiral Dancer

Dark Entries? Now that is funny!

To answer OEC, I think how I see Goth is Something that is outside the normal way of life. True, I enjoy going against the grain, but I don't do it because I;m reacting to anything. I have always been different from others around me. I mean, I was born Feet First (which is apparently very rare, so I was born to be different) A lot of people say Goth is just a type of music, with strange looking fans. I see Goth as a state of mind, something you find comes naturally.

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I hear ya. Feet First? That's awesome:thumb:

I tend to take myself not too seriously, as you can tell. I refuse to argue with my wife, which makes things worse for her, since she is a natural red-head and likes to argue now and then. I do it to wind her up.

As for being born feet first, most people just say "Breach?" and I say "No, it's called a Footling! Breach is backside first. Footlings are very rare." In fact, when my mother woke up in labour (she went to bed with a bad stomach, and woke up in labour) and got to the hospital, the doctors decided to get all the students around to see me born, but within 10 minutes of arriving at the hospital, I was born. I just popped out, thus spoiling the students day as well.

I told, I was born to be awkward. :D

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Originally Posted by Black Spiral Dancer

I tend to take myself not too seriously, as you can tell. I refuse to argue with my wife, which makes things worse for her, since she is a natural red-head and likes to argue now and then. I do it to wind her up.

As for being born feet first, most people just say "Breach?" and I say "No, it's called a Footling! Breach is backside first. Footlings are very rare." In fact, when my mother woke up in labour (she went to bed with a bad stomach, and woke up in labour) and got to the hospital, the doctors decided to get all the students around to see me born, but within 10 minutes of arriving at the hospital, I was born. I just popped out, thus spoiling the students day as well.

I told, I was born to be awkward. :D

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That's so awesome:1orglaugh I'm buying u a pint if we're ever in the same place.:thumb: I'm the same way. I was just jaundice though hehe guess I was a bit ambivalent about the world. Still am but having fun being so. :thumb:

OEC

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Originally Posted by OneEyedCat

That's so awesome:1orglaugh I'm buying u a pint if we're ever in the same place.:thumb: I'm the same way. I was just jaundice though hehe guess I was a bit ambivalent about the world. Still am but having fun being so. :thumb:

OEC

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I'll hold you to that! If you're ever in the North East of England (Newcastle) or in Whitby for the Goth Weekend, we'll have to meet up.
One of my many sisters was born with a knot in her cord and it wrapped around her neck! But being the only sibling born in a hospital, I was always going to have to be the "Black Sheep" of the family.

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Originally Posted by Black Spiral Dancer

I'll hold you to that! If you're ever in the North East of England (Newcastle) or in Whitby for the Goth Weekend, we'll have to meet up.
One of my many sisters was born with a knot in her cord and it wrapped around her neck! But being the only sibling born in a hospital, I was always going to have to be the "Black Sheep" of the family.

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Will do I actually have a lady friend who goes to events up there. She lives in Brighton but I'm sure she'd be down for that. We could double and goof off at some event if/when I'm over.:thumb:

OEC