Do you think the War in Iraq is good or not? Just interested in everyone's thoughts :thumb:
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Do you think the War in Iraq is good or not? Just interested in everyone's thoughts :thumb:
The war in Irak? you mean the invasion of Irak right?
I do not belive in this war founded by greed. Blood for oil is what it is. and this "weapons of mass destruction" bullshit, its more like "weapons of mass delusion".
Just my opinion though....
If I could meet Bush I would punch him in the head and kick him in the balls when he is down.
Well the entire region is one every western nation had to deal with sooner or later...from backroom deals to massive corruption the mess Iraq was and is happened and started WELL before Dubya came into office. You have massive UN corruption and the disaster that was Food for Oil, backroom dealings with the French and Russians, The failure for the U.S. and Coalition forces to do current actions WAY back in the First Iraq War, the absolute disaster that was the 17 UN resolutions over the course of a decade, and the naive belief that the illegal weapons were stored IN Iraq...You have a region of the mideast that has a history of smuggling going back to before western nations even became civilized and yet these same nations function under the silly beleif that if you don't see wherehouses full of chemical weapons they don't exist. Was it a good reaon to bring up for an invasion? No...if that was the reason every nation would have to be invaded. These kinda cache's are moved around regularly and in manageble ways. Plus it's much easier to use less sophisticated means to freak out western powers anyhow.
The current war was gonna be fought sooner or later...either by this generation or by the 5 year olds you see runnin around now. If "A Better World" is the ultiamte goal than situations like Iraq will have to occur. You can be absolute or indiffrent about it but ultimately these nasty lil areas of the world that are easier to ignore have to be delt with...either by force...or diplomacy. Unfortunately diplomacy is much less viable with those who want power by their own terms.
Everyone wants this to be made clear and simple but it's not...you can't go 100% dimplomatic or 100% force...you can't even go half and half. It's a blancing act that sways in both directions at once. Between unrealistic goals (A full functioning democracy in less than 3 years? Please, Iraq AT best will be a stable nation in 5 years AFTER a inferstructure is up and running. An inferstructure that was in a constant state of decay for nearly 3 decades) and insane bullshit from both sides of the spectrum it seems the most humanitarian and proper thing to do...is to shut the fuck and get the hard work that needs done..DONE.
But if that was to happen Liberals wouldn't have things to write and bitch about and conservatives wouldn't have...well the same thing really. The only thing I've seen done more than complain is opportunism. Reporters doing ratings grabing stories, filmmakers doing attention grabing documentaries, politicians using it as a platform for their agendas....it's all sickening.
But hey...that's the way the game is played and things are done. 3 years from now something else will take the place of Iraq just the way nearly everyone "forgets" about Afghanistan...and Pakistan...and Indonesia...and that whole lil situation in Africa.
I do like the way so many blame Bush...I just wish that's the way the world functioned. If ONE person was the key to all these complicated and multi-leveled political issues world peace would a rather easy road to navigate...just get rid of people like Bush...and every other person to hold pilitical office...and those annying college revolutionries in Che shirts...and those damned communists...and those ultra patriots...and that guy who hands out his socialists pamphlets...and anyone who you know...wants to be in a position of power...
...and all those damned voters who cause these problems in the first place.
I thik the U.S. were wrong in the approach they took it...but here's the deal...war is human nature...it's going to happen till we go extinct
Actually I think that's what helped us NOT become extinct.Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedingaway
I think the war in Iraq is a waste of valuable resources. It's left us vulnerable by spreading our forces too thin, not to mention the fact that it did not eliminate the threat from al-queda, which was what everyone was all upset about in the first place. How does it make sense to say first that we need to eliminate terrorists, and then start a war in an unrelated field? It's just a thin veil to hide the fact that the government can't get rid of the terrorists; a distraction technique. Bush knew he had to make a major move after 9/11, but instead of sending more troops into Afghanistan, he decided it would look better to make a major coup. He meant for it to make us look less weak, but in actuality, it makes us look like chicken shits for not going in to North Korea, whose population suffers just as much as the Iraqis, and they've actually threatened us!
As far as the recent media coverage is concerned, I think it's completely understandable. Since they don't have a chance of beating US troops, they instead demoralize them by making things seem worse than they really are. Let's face it: war is bloody. People die either way, but if you behead someone, that's just as good as killing 500 troops since it gets a more horrified reaction. Personally, I don't see why people are so appalled by a couple of people dying in an inhumane manner. How is that worse than dying from an explosion? The guy's dead either way. Since when is there a right and wrong way of killing people???
The problem is that most people don't really think things through. They see death as an inevitable effect of war; as something that's an idea rather than a fact. They don't put faces to the statistics, and they're horrified when they're reminded that those people who are dying have personalities and families, etc.
I think forcing a democratic government on the Iraqis is completely stupid. We were the ones who supported Saddam Hussein, and look what good he did for them. But do they learn from what happened the last time we told the Iraqis who their leader should be? No, here we go again trying to set up another government for them. I say we should get the hell out of Iraq and let them solve their own problems. If one of the solutions they decide for themselves is to ask us for peacekeeping troops, fine. If they feel like fighting amongst themselves for a couple of decades (which you know will happen, regardless), we should leave them to it. But as things stand right now, if someone else so much as sneezes on us, there will be a reinstatement of the draft.....
Tequila Ziare said it pretty much how I see it.....
What do you think about the soldiers in Iraq, do you support them or not?
Without question I support them. When you sign up for the military you're not ASKED if you'd like to go to war...you HAVE to go. It's not only their duty...but their job. They don't really get the luxury of questioning what they must do the way civilians do. Plus at the end of the day no soldier fights for the ideals we think they do...they fight so the guy next to them lives. They fight to make sure their friends in combat survive...that's what it really breaks down to anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by AEstud
Support them or not at the end of the day they're the ones being shot at. I've always had a rather high respect for soldiers to be blunt about because it's such a unique situation they are in. Nothing in the civilian world compares to it. Warfare is very much it's OWN world with rules that range from the absurd to necessary...to live in that...survive it...and do so largely to protect your friends in all of it...is downright amazing. Like anything their is a dark side to this as seen in war crimes soldiers have and do commit. Unfortunately it's much diffrent in combat than in the civilian world...at the end of the day a soldier is one thing and one thing alone...a highly trained professional killer.
Look and judge that as you will.
Everyone was telling us he had them. Including Middle eastern Kingdoms. Without actually standing next to one and putting your hand on it, there is always a level of uncertainty. Saddam wasnt trying to convince us he didnt have them. I think he would learn how to hide those things by now since he's had the capability for so long. Just because we haven't found them doesn't mean they weren't there. I don't know if we should have invaded. Im just not yet convinced the weapons werent there
Right now I'm doing research on Black Markets and Smuggling for a comic and to be dead honest it's some unsettleing stuff. So much can be hidden in places that seem impossible. Plus the way WE think something is stored is not always the case. It's amazing the amount of deception used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trotter
One of the more interesting examples is Deliberate Aging...a technique used by modelers and Hollywood SFX companies since well ever. It makes things looks older or at times a completely diffrent texture. Like a new plastic pipe made to look like a rusting copper pipe. Using such techniques you can make a high tech manufacuring site look old and rundown like the enviornment around it. Really for most stuff you need ONE room to manufacture military grade WMD...the REAL catch though is manufacturing for military use...then you need serious equipment like the kind the UN and U.S. wanted to dismantel.
But the real threat in Saddam's regime was the people who made up the day to day staff and high ranking members. In any regime like this they tend to be the most dangerous and opportunistic. It took DECADES to find out how evil Nazi officials were for example outside the well known bastards. So in a modern world like today it's easier to make backroom deals without no only using your own identity...but even meeting the people you do buisness with. This tiny little fact makes this entire struggle so insanely difficult...cause sadly the Evil Men chased often time are only shadows and ghosts for other people or organizations.
Those chasing modern terorrists on all levels have a very complicated job that the average person does not care to know the details of...only the ultimate goal...which is RESULTS.
The 'war' in Iraq is BULLSHIT. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11...it was all Osama, so where in the hell is he?? All Bush did was try and take our focus away from the REAL problem, and that was who actually was responsible for 9/11 and the terrorist attacks. Hes done a damn good job too, and thats a real pity. Bush is now no different than Saddam, and the only reason we are there is because Dubya had a bone to pick for his daddy.
Why in the hell isnt the redneck focusing on US? Where is our aid? Why are Americans jobless, homeless, and going hungry? But we are spending all our resources on people whom half the population are trying to kill us. hes one backwards, screwed up, bible thumping piece of shit, and Id spit on him if ever given the chance.
Sorry to tell how I really feel.
Well, according to the 9/11 report, there are no wepons of mass destruction in Iraq. Osama's prolly hanging out at Camp David with the rest of the Saudi Royal Family, the whole thing was a ruse. But, yes, I support the troops in that I feel sorry for them to be trapped in the desert with a bunch of crazy militants in an urban warfare climate. I appriciate that they Strapped on their packs and went to Iraq and Afganistan so that I didn't have to. I respect that they are doing a Job that I refuse to do that, apearnatly, needs doing. I grudgingly admit that it's possible the world is a better place without Saddam. But I don't think the Iraqi people feel that way. I think the Whole thing could have been handled in a completely different way, maybe one that didn't alienate the US from the rest of the world community's good graces. I think Dubya and his brother Duh of Fla better start packing, because the UN is going to be over seeing this election as per the agreement signed 10 years ago to avoid any discrepencies. So, Gods willing, Kerry should be in charge by January, every one here in the Valley gets to keep their adult oriented jobs and things start operating more smoothly around here. I only hope the Zombie Man can keep his campaign promises. *sigh* Universal Health Care *sigh* Maybe then I won't have to sacrafice my food budget to by medicines...
K
I think Tequila Z. makes some cogent points..after all even Clinton called for 'regime change'- and we had this -'no-fly zone- deal which couldn't go on forever..plus his sons (who were crazier than Saddam) were going to get the reins eventually..
But I think we remain in the MidEast because of our 'vital interests'- which means the world economy (100 trillion dollars a year is tied up in fossil fuels)still runs on oil - which will begin to peak in a couple of decades..
We simply need to develop alternatives now- and let the Arab world slug it out by itself- it's going through a cultural civil war now..and there's not much we can do abt it.
P.
The problem with these two points is this...Quote:
Originally Posted by pedar
Alternative Fuels are far more deceptive in implementation than some would like to believe. Crude Oil is used in so many areas of manufacturing that even if its use for fuel was stopped today we'd still have serious ecenomic depenmdancy on it. The theory of "Peak Oil" to be honest is parinoia for the most part and paints a much darker picture of the world dismissing Mankinds ability to adapt. This is the main problem...alternative fuels really mean Alternative means of production across all known modern manufacturing. From the chemicals needed to make plastics to the oils used to keep massive machines running...oil in all it's forms is EVERYWHERE. If the new methods of production were cheaper and easier to implement then this would not be an issue but they are not...many prove to be more expensive and more damaging to the enviornment. Look at the landfills of electronics...the heavy metals in them alone are a huge issue at the moment.
It will take at least another 100 to 200 years for manufacturing to move AWAY from the sensebilities and resources of the last century...and since we won't live to see it all we can do is move forward with the technology to develop these new methods. The worst thing that could happen is to have these new methods rushed for the sake of appeasing modern social and political agendas. You can't change a whole industry without seeing what the ramifications will be on all levels. Visit the various "ghost towns" created by manufacturing leaving for ecenomic reasons or simple tech advancements. They are testaments to lessons unlearned and problems ignored. Expand that to include the entire crude oil industry and it's off shoots...and you have a very big challenge to deal with and streamline to make both an effective change and a profitable one.
Leaving the Arab World to slug it out on it's own is impossible...because they are an area very much created and formed BY the western world. Many would not even be recognized nations without 19th and 20th century colonialism. So as a result they are the WORLDS responsiblity to deal with...strongly. The resources they hold are NOT theirs...they are the worlds since lets be honest that's what the modern world functions on. They know it...we know it...and it's future is in the hands of world powers.
Without dealing with the hoenst reality of the world blind idealism begins to infect issues it should not. Some issues are simply not gonna be resolved fairly. Resource mangement is always gonan be one of those. YOUR nation...the one you as an individual call home...serves to do it's best for itself and its people. That's ultimately how they function with allies being based on opportunity for their agendas. The future of the Mid-East is one of great opportunity that no nation should ignore since the safety and prosperity of their people rely on it.
One world one people is a nice ideal and makes for great songs...but it's not going to happen...ever. Humanity is too hard wired on it's diffrences and alliances to unite as one. However if like so many Sci Fi novels love to fall for that an OUTSIDE threat would unite us then maybe it'll happen...but for me if aliens DID invade I'm sure everyone would try to figure out how to use them for THEIR agendas and how to profit off them.
Hell I know I would.
you know, I don't really care that there weren't WMDs in Iraq.
Saddam Hussein was a vindictive bastard that will spend the after-life in that special place reserved for Hitler, Mao, Stalin and all the other "Evil men of history"
Being an utterly nosy SOB (a good quality in a lawyer) I've read nearly everything I could find on Iraq, Saddam, and the UN.
First, Saddam sucks There are countless reports of torture being comitted upon innocent people (our documentation of it doesn't really start until the first gulf war.) now we're pretty hard core here (and I expect that there are some pretty masocistic people here) but even I think it's horrible to have your soldiers use knives to shave the skin fron someone's bones and make them eat their own flesh as they writhe in agony before they die choking on their own skin and blood.
Do I have a problem with the Iraqi Invasion? yes! It should have been taken care of by the first Bush.
Am I worried about troops in Iraq? hell yes! my little sister's there now (Combat Engineer) and my little Bro's going there in November.
I could go into a complete discussion about warfare, ethics, Justice and the psycosociological aspects of war...
but since my time is worth enough to me that I don't want to waste my time teaching to people that may or may not care, you can find everything you could ever need to know about geopolitical decision making on a budget at http://www.globalsecurity.org they have every report published about Iraq, terrorism, the US Military and all the other stuff. (FREE)
Do I think that Bush sucks because he can't handle dealing with most other countries? yes.
BUT Unfortunately, I believe that Kerry's even worse. I mean he wants to hand it over to the UN.
You know what the UN did in 1995? Terrorists in Sudan were committing widespread Genocide.... So what did the UN do? The UN Security council made sure that no one officially mentioned the term "Genocide" in UN meetings so that they would not be forced to intervene.
THE F'ing UN CHARTER says that the whole purpose of the orginization is to prevent Genocide, and they are required to intervene by their charter.
but no, they're too afraid to do it, so hundreds of thousands of people that never did anything wrong got tortured and ***** and murdered.
the hell with that. and the UN.
(heh, a bit ranty eh? I'm not exactly a bush fan. But being a #1 a fan of Guns, and #2 a hater of Saddam Hussein. I don't want to elect Kerry . (and in 2008, we can elect someone that will fix Bush's screwed up Environmental Policies... Maybe Edwards (He would have made SUCH a better president than Kerry)
Excellent site...I use it regularly for a wide range of research needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Z
Well your skepticism is refreshing in a way..but no- I don't think it's far left paranoia at all that fossil fuels will be gone within the century- I heard that from too many sources (even Bush is calling for fuel cell research)--Quote:
Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire
Thomas Friedman (who's hated by the Left) of the NY Times has called for a Manhattan Project type approach..the atomic bomb was built -from theory to reality in less than five years..
We also said that we couldn't leave So. East Asia (Vietnam) alone 40 years ago and look what happened..the same is true abt Africa also in the l960s--eventually without any help from the West, Africa has gradually started growing democracies..China and Vietnam are now pleading for our capitalist dollars..all without us firing a shot at them..give it time..developing cultures need time to ....develop..
We are pretty unformily despised throughout the Arab World- and the Iraq adventure hasn't helped that one bit..leave them alone and let them work it out by themselves..
Al Queda is trying to get their hands on a nuke- how many mushrooms clouds do we need over the US until we just get the message.?.I saw Ben Laden interviewed before 9-11- and he said 'stay away from us and we'll stay away from you'-
btw I'm no naive 'one world' Seattle anarchist either..I'm simply a pragmatic realist..
cheers P.
""I saw Ben Laden interviewed before 9-11- and he said 'stay away from us and we'll stay away from you'""
So our answer to their plea to "please take your troops and leave" is to add more troops? Please tell me how this makes sense!
K
I'm afraid I don't understand your point here- I'm not calling for more troops- maybe Tequila Z. is-- P.Quote:
Originally Posted by keiko
I'm not saying that TZ or You are calling for more troops. What I'm saying is this. When Bin Laden and his organisation Attacked the US they were saying to us "ok, we don't want your American military bases or your American military in our country. Please take these capitalist pigs home." (essentially) So what was "America's" answer to this statement? We send more troops over thre to beat the crap out of them and their organisation. Granted we got side tracked and invaded Iraq but we still have more troops in Afganistan now than we did on September 10th, '01. I'm Asking how this makes sense. Does it make sense to you? To any one else? I'm still struggling with this one 3 yrs later. Please help.Quote:
Originally Posted by pedar
K
Yes, well I think we are all 'struggling with this one'-like I say I'm a pragmatist- whatever works,works- and we probably realistically in the short term-have to try to hunt down and kill as many active terrorists as we can (that doesn't require lots of new troops btw-especially in Iraq)..but in the long term- we have have to have an exit strategy-Quote:
Originally Posted by keiko
P.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedar
I'd love to see a Manhatten style approach to the situation but that would require a massive investment of $$$ that none seem to want to put up at the moment. It would have to be a multi-national approach though.
China is very diffrent from Vietnam in more ways than I can elaborate here (I could fill pages on it...been a passion of mine since I was a kid) so I wouldn't compare them in terms of their capitalist goals so directly. The problem with leaving Vietnam when the U.S. did was Cambodia...and the Killing Fields it spawned. So their is a very big danger in jsut pulling out...as in sex...nature just doesn't work that way. In terms of Africa...I'd really take a closer look there if I were you...it's a Continent in DIRE need of Western and Eastern aide across the board...it's currently in a state of self destruction as disease, corruption, and civil war rip through it. The death tolls are VERY high...an rarely does this make the news anywhere.
Al Queda and Bin Laden have their own agendas that require no western powers for reasons that have zero to do with Live and Let Live. Without western ideas and societies in the mideast you are prone to nation states that function on out of date sensebilities that simply put us all in danger. I doubt any of us want to see an Al Queda like organization in charge of the Oil Rich Mid East...they would not waste time in using said power to crush and influence nearby nations. Make no mistake about it...these are men with agendas to put THEM in power...nothing more. Islam is just a perfect tool for them...true Islam is debated like politics but few would agree that the actions of the last 20 years by opportunists like Bin Laden would be looked as favorable by God. Lets not forget one absolute truth...Bin Laden started and grew up like a spoiled rich playboy...and when that failed to give him the type of power he craved his faith and ambition corrupted him like it has countless men before him. He's a textbook case of a man given everything out only to destroy everything.
I'll admit I don't agree with your train of thought here. I'll explain why...go to any neighborhood controlled by gangmembers in this city. They say the SAME thing about cops "Stay out of OUR neighborhoods". They spout on how if Rival gangs and the police stayed out all would be well and good there....utter fucking bullshit. They use such tactics and words in order for them to take control and fullfill their own desires and ambitions. You MUST send in the police and you must hammer it home that THEY are not the ones who own their neighborhoods. That land is part of the city that is in tern part of the state that makes up this country. If you allow people to dictate their own rules and laws even on such a small scale you rob EVERYONE of what they live and work for each day. At the end of the day a nation is a collective of people who work toward making a better world for themsleves...you can't have a few fucking it up for everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by keiko
No one wants Terrorrists and men like Bin Laden or The Taliban in charge...they bully and corrupt the world around them and choke the real potential, creativity, and beauty of people...look at Pakistan and their problems with fundementalists taking over parts of their nation...it's sad.
The U.S. is not the problem...the U.S. is the perfect scapegoat to use as "The big bully" when in reality the U.S. does less than ANY other nation in terms of colonial practices. It didn't work and while it has spread capitalism like few other nations that was never meant to bea fair and equal system since at the heart it's about individual initiative...hell if you want equality for doing absolutely nothing go to socialist nations (yeah I know cheap shot but fuck em). THe U.S. is in the position of no matter what it does it's looked upon as the bad guy cause it's the ONLY major superpower left anf more importantly it's made up of MANY people...not jsut one.
That alone pissess off many...lets not forget who the U.S. is and what it is made up off...the tired, poor, and outcasts of other nations. All of them coming here to face intense descrimination and eventually rising above it (look at the history of the Irish, Italians, Jews, Mexicans, etc. in this nation)...so for this alone I don't buy into any of the Evil Empire bullshit that spews from Europe (Hey last I remembered all these problem areas of the world WERE YOUR FORMER FUCKING COLONIES!) or the garbage spewered out of terorrists...NOTHING justifies killing people who are only heading to work (bus bombings/9-11)...attack military personel and institutions if you will...THEY can defend themselves....not some woman holding her puse, work files, and coffee as she heads to the 40th floor to earn a paycheck to pay bills and keep her family on top...none of those victims in the attack on the WTC towers or bus bombings in Israel are there to hold up some geo-political ideal...they just want to live their lives.
Lives that terrorrists feel violate their own agendas and world views...lack of opportunity and piss poor nations may be to blame...but that's were MANY of those people they killed on 9-11 started their lives from and they managed to carve out a good life through HARD WORK not carryign an AK-47 , sitting in a mosque all day, and bitching about the U.S.
Hell my own mother came from a place that didn't have plumbing or paved roads in the heart of Mexico...and she made one HELL of a life for herself in this nation so I take grat offense to these worthless fucks trying to KILL people like her.
Would I send more troops? No. More bombs? No. But lord knows I want these terorrists to face justice...and reality.
My only- and perhaps final comment is to roughly quote Arthur C. Clarke- that religion is a nasty 'mind virus'- which has outlived it's usefulness-- that's why we have tribes which self describe as 'Muslim' or 'Shiite' or 'Jew'-- all based on an exclusive 'revealed truth'- by 'One God' who, oddly, -only favors certain groups..P.
huh. humanity is just a virus in shoes - the intergalactic version of the flu. i think the sooner we are wiped out as a race the better - this does not excuse the seven shades of bullshit spouted by the US and UK governments (and shit, on it goes) in an attempt to gather everyone behind this 'liberation'. And as for it being a situation that the western world would have had to deal with one day - there was always the option to not sell these weapons or install a friendly dictatorship in the first place. we caused that situation - the least we can do now is use the polls to let our respective governments know that we ain't so masochistic as to let them in for another half decade.
Ya know I can't help it- it's the philosophy/logic part of me but if we're 'just a virus' and 'the sooner we're wiped out the better' then why should we worry abt being 'maochistic' ? Why not let these bad governments we have stay in power and bring about total anhilation of the species all the sooner? Just following the train of logic here..cheers P.Quote:
Originally Posted by vixta
i see your point honey, but :Quote:
Originally Posted by pedar
my personal opinion which you are not obliged to share.Quote:
huh. humanity is just a virus in shoes - the intergalactic version of the flu. i think the sooner we are wiped out as a race the better
-you see what i did with the underlined part? While I believe that man is a virus in shoes, and should be wiped out i don't believe that lies, deceit, fear mongering and the like should be employed by a countrys government in order to bring about a fucking war. we were all lied to about this - by the people who we fucking elected. there is a massive difference between how i feel about humanity as a whole and this particular situation.Quote:
this does not excuse the seven shades of bullshit spouted by the US and UK governments (and shit, on it goes) in an attempt to gather everyone behind this 'liberation'.
Okay honey from Brum-Quote:
Originally Posted by vixta
let's say you're a pecularily moralistic sort of nihilist....
P.
I heard on Democracy Now that many Iraqis are quitting the Iraq national gaurd because they don't want to fight the militia. I also heard the US would not comprimise with the militia to end the fighting. Are they talking about this on the top TV networks as well or just dishing out propaganda? (I don't have a TV so I can't check myself)
-Nathan