Burning Man 2009

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

Nothing is free, Burning Man has to pay the BLM (Bureau of Land Management)for a permit to occupy public property.

Do you really believe that Burning Man has to pay the State of Nevada $18 MILLION in order to set up camp?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

You must understand that for artists that don’t have any money, sites like Live Journal and Deviantart are all some have to grasp onto. I would love to own Dreamweaver, but I can’t afford it! These sites are extremely commercial because nothing can be done for free anymore. People who work for these sites must eat like everyone else. At least the majority of ads on deviant art are art related! People can’t just pull money out of their asses. Part of the artistic process is struggling at first, and then succeeding (hopefully) All sites have ads, even this one, you can’t escape this unless money started growing on trees.

As an artist who has literally gone hungry to be able to create, I thoroughly understand that artists often do not have money. Please explain to me why it is okay for large corporate entities like LiveJournal or DeviantArt to make $$$$$$$$ off of artist's work, when the artists may literally be starving artsts, but the artists would not be permitted to post the images on their own sites, even though any artist's site almost certainly makes far less money than LJ or dA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

The government treats artists like gnats (they might as well not even exists)! At least Burning Man is still trying to draw artists together and support art in any way. Did you ever stop and think that government has this even under close watch, the people of burning Man must follow government rules if they would like to continue holding this event. ?

What government rule did I voice the slightest objection to, which Burning Man must sadly and reluctantly follow?

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Alias

So, because Amelia owns the site, you aren't allowed to debate her? =/ I haven't done more than skim their posts, but it just seems like a difference of opinion and perspective, not "omfg you're dumb".

I strongly prefer that people debate me, rather than silently disagreeing or just yelling an opinion and running off scared.

My mind is open. Sometimes a person who can support what they say can make me see things in a different light. That is the whole point of intelligent and civil exchange of varied viewpoints. Ideally, everyone ends up better informed and with opinions more in line with their own personal core values.

Re: Burning Man 2009

FROZE, you still have not answered what charities does Burning Man donate to and what portion of the proceeds goes to charity?

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Bat

Now hold on just a second - I'm reading this and I'm not seeing as much as an argument as I am understanding being shed.

I spent 14+ years in the bay area and have had my fair share of similar type thinking events be it in principle or in a gathering such as various pagan festivals or street fairs, etc. -

The one thing about Burning Man is that it did stem from that philosophy - hell it stemmed from the Bay Area. Reading about it and learning more about it from sources that have gone there really does make this sound like it's still a valid attempt to obtain higher level consciousness through various mediums of self-expression and art, albeit while it's concept of 'free-love/gifts' thinking is a bit dated and that philosophy always has flaws when it comes to rational survivability in a common society (I.E, you're pretty much looking at Anarchy if this was common place in big cities), to provide a "Safe and Sane" (relatively) environment for such an event I think is awesome.

Hearing and seeing what goes on there, I can completely understand why people go and put 1000% into what their creating out there and again, if I had the time, money and ability, I would go and do something.

What is unfortunate is that there is a bit of a 'controlling' issue with the promoters plus, and please believe me when I tell you this...

NO ONE DOES ANYTHING FOR FREE. PERIOD THE END.

While there are costs for procuring the land, staff, etc., if you think for one millisecond that the main promoters aren't walking away with at least a few million in profit, you're insane. We're looking at what - a take of $220 average from apparently "Tens of Thousands of People" so 30,000... that's $6,600,000...

No way land out there for that time period with staff and cleanup is more then a million or two... Toss another million and various staff and insurance, etc., and yea, $3 million profit is my guess.

Now all in all it still comes down to control of which most people will not have a problem with - I'm guessing 85%-95%. Most people are there to get high, do their thang, promote themselves and just live the experience. The rest who are serious about utilizing their surround space be it in the studio or in RL @ BM to create their art as it's their life are apparently affected to a degree they're not used to nor do I think they should be ... so ... I asked on the inside about it:

From my source:

Within the confines of the city limits of Black Rock City (BRC), currency is irrelevant. They call it a gift economy. The ticket price pays for portapotties, Bureau of Land Management fees for land use, and over all public works costs. Once you get inside, you are free (literally) to do whatever you want.

When it comes to picture taking there are two things: Always ask somebody before you take their picture. This is just common sense and works in the RL too. ;) And if you are to use your photos or video for works in profitable media (websites, magazines, newspapers, advertising) you first need to register your camera with BM and get permission to publish your work. As for personal photos and to post on FB and things like that, you are free to do as you please. These rules are basically to prevent FOX News and Girls Gone Wild from making a profit at our expense.

So first, LOL to the Girls Gone Wild comment as I was thinking that was one of the reasons in the beginning stages of this thread. It also seems to ease off a few things. One, any joe shmoe can shoot and post away on their private website. Once you stand to gain is when you need to "Register" to do so. It doesn't seem you CAN'T, you just have to get "Approved" whatever that means... A cut of profit? A one time fee? I dunno...

However, being the situation of what Burning Man stands for, I think them asking for such 'approval' is a bit assuming. It does contradict what they stand for and also goes against normal reasons other venues have 'No Picture Policies'. It's because they're private establishments with private contracts with performers, etc... - Burning Man is an admitted Free For All. That said sort of negates their position for controlling images (Video/Photos).

Now I can understand the need to approve installations due to safety reasons - I think that's a totally different issue, but it's like any other night of shooting/filming on a public site (and I'm calling BM an all out public site) - Companies put the standard sign up claiming that you can be filmed at any time against your will. Don't like it? Get out of the club/venue. Since BM is an admitted "Free For All", then I think it's safe to say that you're FREE to be filmed FOR ALL to see - butt nekkid or not.

Now yea, there are kids there and yes, I would probably take my kids when they are old enough provided I have the time, money and inclination as I know even the wildest peeps I know still have respect and I assume most people there do. I don't expect too much "Lord of the Flies" happening out there unless EVERYONE eats the FISH... BUT, in the end, I think FROZE, being new here, may of jumped in all excited about something without thought to consequence... Yea, it's in Promotional, Yea it seems a bit odd, but in the same breath, Amelia isn't charging anyone to post in Promotional Announcements and while the scale is much bigger, I think BM should let her register and take whatever video/pics she wants for her own profit here at BB based on the fact that it too promotes BM and SHE PAID TO GO. Something I doubt she has to do at probably almost any other event she goes to.

If BM is fair, their response should be "Sure, but you have to include this official graphic logo in your images" or something like that but they shouldn't decline and they shouldn't ask for any other financial restitution.

Now if GIRLS GONE WILD showed up, I think they would have just as much right to shoot there BUT, and here is where I can understand BM's position, I would DENY them based on their intentions do not stem from what BM stands for. Amelia and BB does.

meh... I'm not even going this year... I still would like to one day... lol

I think you really get what my issues are. If the Burning Man rhetoric did not appeal to me, then I wouldn't be so bothered by the hypocrisies.

It is not just a question of Burning Man getting to decide what use of the images they approve of, which I object to partially because I feel this is hypocritical, given their stated values, but also because this is such an obvious violation of basic American rights to freedom of the press. Those rights may or may not be able to be abridged by a private contract, such as purchase of a Burning Man ticket, but the legality is a question for constitutional scholars and I am not one. However, it seems obvious Burning Man wishes to be able to control all press about them and that is clearly fascist and not warm and fuzzy at all.

Maybe Burning Man can invoke FOX News to get people to think their rules are there for good reasons, but they allow people to post Burning Man images on their ******* profiles and News Corp cashes the checks for adverts on FOX News and adverts on ******* -- same ownership.

Lots of people do things for free; at least they do things for reasons having nothing to do with money. I'd probably have more dough if I could respond to money more viscerally, but I can't; either I am inspired as an artist or I'm not. There are reasons every single major mainstream adult video company has pitched me to create for them and I have chosen not to do so. I have given a lot to my community without charging for it. I am driven to create, whether or not it makes money, but I'm not into putting everything I've got into art supplies and letting someone else cash the checks for my work. There is a difference between doing something for free out of love and joy in creation and being chumped by a bunch of rich guys.

FROZE said current Burning Man attendance is 60,000 people. I'm coming up with a rough estimate of $18 million gross. You've thrown more events than I have, so I'm sure you can do the math on their likely net there.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Narrowing it down, the only thing I can see is the issue of bad press. If Girls Gone Wilds @ BM gets released, it reflects poorly on BM and tells people (who give a shit) that BM is a lesbian co-ed tit-clit-flick-lick fest with a bunch of "YEE HAWS" added in as well. That I could see would be bad and if I ran BM, I would do everything in my power to make sure that DOESN'T happen. That's exploitation of BM for personal gain but we're talking EXPLOITATION.

Now take a camera there and create art by someone who grew up/into and basically with the scene with subjects from same said scene and I think BM should not only approve but should be proud of said production and, not being hypocritical, wish said artist who produces such a production a prosperous return financially with perhaps that provision of at least crediting the location at BM 2009 but that's about it. I mean, isn't that why BM was started to begin with - To allow individuals to create their art without prejudice as long as it was within such guidelines (which today are a small document) but never-the-less guidelines that co-exist with the artistic growth and development made famous or at least made known by the Bay Area movement? Unrestricted, true and honest from within art - not exploitation - and most importantly, done so for what artists have done said works for for hundreds of years - TO MAKE A LIVING!

Artists paint to sell their paintings. I write music to hopefully pay the rent and put food on my table. While "GIFTING" is a novel and rightous thing to do @ BM, I'm sorry but my landlord ain't gonna take no 'GIFTING' of rent and neither does the local super-market.

But we're come to this already - and I suggest this:

Amelia - Contact BM and ask them if you can go and take pics freely and unrestrained for BB's website of willing participants at BM and to be allowed to use that material for profit on your website. I'm sure you'll have to explain that you've been a part of this 'scene' before there even was a BM and that as long as their requirements aren't infringing in any manner against your work financially or beyond what you think isn't fair and they are reasonable requests, you'll sign whatever they want.

I'm curious as if they will realize the double edge sword they would be dancing on or perhaps things there aren't as strict as we all think.

I dunno - I could be wrong - You could of already done this Amelia - I just know you could probably do some great shoots there and create something great for that genre of burning man which I'm sorry but is probably way over 50% of everyone who goes there. Into getting nekkid and free either artistically, physically or emotionally and you can capture all three on film.

On a side note - I know Charles Gatewood did some shoots at Burning Man in the 90's - that was a long time ago and maybe these rules weren't in effect back then but if anyone would get shut down it would be him. Then again, I don't see that he's gone back since then either... hmmm...

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Bat

Narrowing it down, the only thing I can see is the issue of bad press. If Girls Gone Wilds @ BM gets released, it reflects poorly on BM and tells people (who give a shit) that BM is a lesbian co-ed tit-clit-flick-lick fest with a bunch of "YEE HAWS" added in as well. That I could see would be bad and if I ran BM, I would do everything in my power to make sure that DOESN'T happen. That's exploitation of BM for personal gain but we're talking EXPLOITATION.

Now take a camera there and create art by someone who grew up/into and basically with the scene with subjects from same said scene and I think BM should not only approve but should be proud of said production and, not being hypocritical, wish said artist who produces such a production a prosperous return financially with perhaps that provision of at least crediting the location at BM 2009 but that's about it. I mean, isn't that why BM was started to begin with - To allow individuals to create their art without prejudice as long as it was within such guidelines (which today are a small document) but never-the-less guidelines that co-exist with the artistic growth and development made famous or at least made known by the Bay Area movement? Unrestricted, true and honest from within art - not exploitation - and most importantly, done so for what artists have done said works for for hundreds of years - TO MAKE A LIVING!

Artists paint to sell their paintings. I write music to hopefully pay the rent and put food on my table. While "GIFTING" is a novel and rightous thing to do @ BM, I'm sorry but my landlord ain't gonna take no 'GIFTING' of rent and neither does the local super-market.

But we're come to this already - and I suggest this:

Amelia - Contact BM and ask them if you can go and take pics freely and unrestrained for BB's website of willing participants at BM and to be allowed to use that material for profit on your website. I'm sure you'll have to explain that you've been a part of this 'scene' before there even was a BM and that as long as their requirements aren't infringing in any manner against your work financially or beyond what you think isn't fair and they are reasonable requests, you'll sign whatever they want.

I'm curious as if they will realize the double edge sword they would be dancing on or perhaps things there aren't as strict as we all think.

I dunno - I could be wrong - You could of already done this Amelia - I just know you could probably do some great shoots there and create something great for that genre of burning man which I'm sorry but is probably way over 50% of everyone who goes there. Into getting nekkid and free either artistically, physically or emotionally and you can capture all three on film.

On a side note - I know Charles Gatewood did some shoots at Burning Man in the 90's - that was a long time ago and maybe these rules weren't in effect back then but if anyone would get shut down it would be him. Then again, I don't see that he's gone back since then either... hmmm...

I asked Burning Man about shooting there many years ago when I exclusively shot on film. They already did give me permission.

With the caveat that Burning Man would get an 8x10 print of every single image shot there, whether Forrest Black and I felt it was a publishable image or not, whether or not it was flattering to the subject or the artists, whether or not we felt it was legally problematic (e.g. if we accidentally took a photo of someone nude without ID), and they would get the rights to use it however they pleased, including Burning Man's own commercial use and commercial resale.

Each professional print at the time cost around $20 to $60, depending on type of film and how it was processed and what was done in the printing process in terms of dodging and burning and how long it took to get the right print etc. I never publish every single image from a shoot, under any circumstances. I like to be free to experiment with different things with the people I shoot, being able to assure my subjects that an experiment which does not work will never be seen by others. In addition, with film as the medium, at that time I already lost money on every shoot I did. I thought what I was doing was important. I thought the people around me mattered and documenting my world was important. I was very inspired as an artist. I was fine with gifting, but at a level within my own comfort zone as an artist and my own financial ability with what I could make from day jobs in stifling corporate offices.

One of the reasons I rarely create that type of work any more is because of all the people who asked me how I made money on it. Answer: I lost money on it, but I was emotionally invested in the work as an artist and a member of my community. I was driven to create, even at a financial loss. Even at a large one.

Given that this particular area of my work was already a money-losing proposition, I was unimpressed with an offer to make what I was doing a gajillion times more expensive, to make it in fact more money than I had at the time, much less what I could afford . . . for the purpose of getting other people paid, when they would already be benefiting from my press coverage.

So basically, it appears that Burning Man is grossing $18 million on the backs of people like me who will spend their own money and time to create. Thanks, Burning Man, for making me feel like a chump for doing things for reasons other than profit motive.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Hmm... that's a very odd request... Maybe a copy of crappy resolution pics on a Wal-Mart CD but to provide material for them to use unconditionally sounds like a breach of the same ethical standards they are setting for everyone else.

I wonder if the same arrangement stands today.

The only way I could see this arrangement happening legally is if they paid YOU to take said pics at an agreed rate. In court it would come down to contracts. Hearsay is worthless in court. You show up and take pics as part of your 'art booth' and that's it - case closed. Granted they have to what, Approve your 'booth' (which they wont) so as FROZEN said, you go rogue.

That said, you do your thing and end up where.. in court? On what charge? You never signed anything and I don't see squat in their official "principals":

http://www.burningman.com/whatisburn...rinciples.html

or anywhere on their website about any restrictions of the sort in regards to photography.

Also to note, prices are not $210-$240... they're tiered and are now 9000 @ $260, 9000 @ $280 and unknown (unlimited?) @$300. That's just pumped the profits up a lot.

Also --- It took some digging but I did find this:

Q. What is the policy on taking pictures?
A. Film and video cameras are forbidden without permission. All video cameras must be registered and tagged. This is to protect the privacy of participants and artists alike. Use Agreement forms for personal video cameras will be available upon arrival at the Gate, the Greeter's Station or Playa Info. If you are considering filming or videotaping for professional purposes, you must have a commercial agreement on file with the Media Team prior to your arrival onsite. Commercial use of images taken at Burning Man without permission is subject to cunning legal action and punishable by death. This includes amateurs and professionals who capture images. Click here for further information.

Ok - this pretty much sums it up. They have no case against you. Anyone stupid enough to jokey smurf "PUNISHABLE BY DEATH" in with their official legal standpoint is gonna possibly get punished themselves in court. I believe that's borderline terrorist / mafia tactics. Highly illegal in the USA.

That leads to here: http://www.burningman.com/press/

Only thing it says is that you need "Written Permission"... so that implies "Yes or No" - Not Stipulations.

All and all, it's a "Private Event" and that right there, given they dot their I's and cross their T's does give them the right to be Nazis - however again, some of their wording is a bit immature and I wonder if now they'll realize that it's better not to shit where you eat as things like this will catch up with them - it has been brought to light here.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Bat

Hmm... that's a very odd request... Maybe a copy of crappy resolution pics on a Wal-Mart CD but to provide material for them to use unconditionally sounds like a breach of the same ethical standards they are setting for everyone else.

I wonder if the same arrangement stands today.

The only way I could see this arrangement happening legally is if they paid YOU to take said pics at an agreed rate. In court it would come down to contracts. Hearsay is worthless in court. You show up and take pics as part of your 'art booth' and that's it - case closed. Granted they have to what, Approve your 'booth' (which they wont) so as FROZEN said, you go rogue.

That said, you do your thing and end up where.. in court? On what charge? You never signed anything and I don't see squat in their official "principals":

http://www.burningman.com/whatisburn...rinciples.html

or anywhere on their website about any restrictions of the sort in regards to photography.

Also to note, prices are not $210-$240... they're tiered and are now 9000 @ $260, 9000 @ $280 and unknown (unlimited?) @$300. That's just pumped the profits up a lot.

Also --- It took some digging but I did find this:

Q. What is the policy on taking pictures?
A. Film and video cameras are forbidden without permission. All video cameras must be registered and tagged. This is to protect the privacy of participants and artists alike. Use Agreement forms for personal video cameras will be available upon arrival at the Gate, the Greeter's Station or Playa Info. If you are considering filming or videotaping for professional purposes, you must have a commercial agreement on file with the Media Team prior to your arrival onsite. Commercial use of images taken at Burning Man without permission is subject to cunning legal action and punishable by death. This includes amateurs and professionals who capture images. Click here for further information.

Ok - this pretty much sums it up. They have no case against you. Anyone stupid enough to jokey smurf "PUNISHABLE BY DEATH" in with their official legal standpoint is gonna possibly get punished themselves in court. I believe that's borderline terrorist / mafia tactics. Highly illegal in the USA.

That leads to here: http://www.burningman.com/press/

Only thing it says is that you need "Written Permission"... so that implies "Yes or No" - Not Stipulations.

All and all, it's a "Private Event" and that right there, given they dot their I's and cross their T's does give them the right to be Nazis - however again, some of their wording is a bit immature and I wonder if now they'll realize that it's better not to shit where you eat as things like this will catch up with them - it has been brought to light here.

Oh, I suspect that I could go to Burning Man now, especially with digital technology, do what I felt was right, and wait for Burning Man to whine about it. Incidentally, when I call their controlling policy fascist, I do not mean it in the slang sense of I don't like it, I mean that it meets basic definitions of fascism. Hardly freedom in the desert.

If I give my word, I do my best to keep it. Yeah, there are times I think I can get something done faster than I can or something. Nobody is perfect. But I am disinclined to go into something planning on doing anything other than what I agreed. I detest other people changing a deal they have made, so karmically I feel I must live by keeping my word. From a legal standpoint, Burning Man would probably have difficulty limiting me, but they would, given the way they set things up, likely be successful in stealing my work for their own uses. I frequently give people permission to use my work for free, for cool things, but that involves acknowledgment of a sort Burning Man does not give.

One of the areas where I excel at photography is in being able to capture only the most enjoyable-looking moments. That is my vision, so I'm not complaining, but I would not want to lend my talents to making an event with such loathsome policies look extra-fun.

PS FROZE said people with cameras would be met with friendly hugs, but you found the thing on their site where it says they will be met with "Use Agreement forms"

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikerpunk

... for me it would be paying $300 for a ticket to stand in the middle of a sandstorm, with no running water, air conditioning, surrounded by bitey and sting-y things.

word.
i don't like camping much in the first place.
and to combine it with a bunch of strangers and a huge price tag?
fail.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikerpunk

How about this?

You stop arguing with the site owner.
KTHXBYE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Alias

So, because Amelia owns the site, you aren't allowed to debate her? =/ I haven't done more than skim their posts, but it just seems like a difference of opinion and perspective, not "omfg you're dumb".

Oh, COME ON! Arguing with the site owner? No, what I’m doing is simply voicing my opinion in a well-versed manner. Not everyone has the exact same perspective, and people need to be able to explain their standpoints. Just because we disagree does not mean we are arguing! In my opinion, we are having somewhat of a mature DEBATE. Children argue- Adults debate. What’s the point of trying to defend my opinions on this forum if the majority of the participants think I am trying to start an argument? Originally, I was trying to network with artists, but it spiraled into a giant conflict, and now I’ve got people telling me to back off and surrender simply because I don’t own this site- what kind of reasoning is this?

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

Oh, COME ON! Arguing with the site owner? No, what I’m doing is simply voicing my opinion in a well-versed manner. Not everyone has the exact same perspective, and people need to be able to explain their standpoints. Just because we disagree does not mean we are arguing! In my opinion, we are having somewhat of a mature DEBATE. Children argue- Adults debate. What’s the point of trying to defend my opinions on this forum if the majority of the participants think I am trying to start an argument? Originally, I was trying to network with artists, but it spiraled into a giant conflict, and now I’ve got people telling me to back off and surrender simply because I don’t own this site- what kind of reasoning is this?

Uhm, one person felt you should be supporting what you said in more of a debate style and engaging in less argument-style name-calling, but nobody said you should not debate. One person is not a majority, although the majority of people probably find it unlikely that you just happened to have interest in nothing over here except promoting Burning Man but did not come over to solely to promote Burning Man. I note that you quoted everyone but me on this topic, so let me help you find what I wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amelia G

I strongly prefer that people debate me, rather than silently disagreeing or just yelling an opinion and running off scared.

My mind is open. Sometimes a person who can support what they say can make me see things in a different light. That is the whole point of intelligent and civil exchange of varied viewpoints. Ideally, everyone ends up better informed and with opinions more in line with their own personal core values.

If you are focusing on the idea that maybe you should stomp off in a huff because you can't remotely back up what you were saying, then I will be disappointed, maybe not surprised, but disappointed to discover that you were just repeating marketing bullet points which you yourself could not support factually in any way which would be clear and communicate to others.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amelia G

Do you really believe that Burning Man has to pay the State of Nevada $18 MILLION in order to set up camp?As an artist who has literally gone hungry to be able to create, I thoroughly understand that artists often do not have money. Please explain to me why it is okay for large corporate entities like LiveJournal or DeviantArt to make $$$$$$$$ off of artist's work, when the artists may literally be starving artsts, but the artists would not be permitted to post the images on their own sites, even though any artist's site almost certainly makes far less money than LJ or dA.What government rule did I voice the slightest objection to, which Burning Man must sadly and reluctantly follow?

No, I never said that. The fee is somewhere around $12,000. I do not work for Burning Man, nor do I represent their opinions, so I do not know the exact figures.
I never said it was "ok", I just said that it happens, and will continue to. What I’m saying is that I do not agree that it is right for corporate entities to try and claim rights over artists' work and/or gain a profit, but if one is truly a "starving artist" and trying to get out there, these entities are some of the only ways that allow for them to introduce themselves. I am on DA and it gives me some amount of hope that I can make it without any financial resources. All artists must make certain sacrifices to get themselves out there, and as sad as it is, giving away their art for free is one of them. I don’t think I know of many artists that haven’t undergone this process of offering their creations for free (unless they have a trust fund).

I do not agree with the regulations of copyright entailing Burning Man. Sadly, I am trying to grasp onto something that used to be very dear to me, but now the apple is rotten. Like I've mentioned, Burning Man used to be different, and it's hard to give something up that has occupied a good portion of my childhood. If you would try to understand that the event has truly inspired me in many ways, and just because I attend doesn’t mean I can account for their new regulations, or even agree with them. Truthfully, I was planning to go only a couple more years before relocating myself, and finding another activity to participate for inspiration, as this one has become a bit to corrupt/ too popular for me. The last couple years weren't as enlightening as I had hoped, but I still got something significant out of the experience: Everything changes, People need something to grasp onto to bring a sense of reality into their lives. there are many artistic outlets, and I think Burning Man has actually developed my artistic mind in a lot of ways. Attending Burning Man, for me, is much better than some of the other paths artists take in the process of trying to develop their skills. For some artists, investing in going to Burning Man is well worth it even if they are poor. I’ve gotten many creative ideas just from being exposed to this environment. Even though the art is now copyrighted, it is still very stimulating, and I respect every artist that participates tremendously.

Burning man must follow numerous government rules (permit fees, cleanup standards, banning participants from bathing in the nearby hot springs, law enforcement/medical personnel fees. . . )

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

Oh, COME ON! Arguing with the site owner? No, what I’m doing is simply voicing my opinion in a well-versed manner. Not everyone has the exact same perspective, and people need to be able to explain their standpoints. Just because we disagree does not mean we are arguing! In my opinion, we are having somewhat of a mature DEBATE. Children argue- Adults debate. What’s the point of trying to defend my opinions on this forum if the majority of the participants think I am trying to start an argument? Originally, I was trying to network with artists, but it spiraled into a giant conflict, and now I’ve got people telling me to back off and surrender simply because I don’t own this site- what kind of reasoning is this?

I'm not telling you to do anything.

I'm suggesting courtesy.
If you walk into someone's house and there's a disagreement within the first few seconds about what's going on, one typically understands one should probably politely address the misunderstanding, or leave, unless one deliberately is wishing to provoke a fight.

There's "hang on, I think you misunderstood what I meant here" which is debating the owner, and having a chip on your shoulder, which is arguing.

It's Amelia and Forrest's bandwidth, man. She could EASILY choose to ban anyone who doesn't begin every sentence with "may it please the almighty, beautiful Amelia G!" however, Amelia is rather kickass and will put up with a mountain of bullshit I personally wouldn't.

I just kind of object to how a) questions asked aren't being answered and b) it's turning into "poor me, everyone's telling me what to do."

You've not yet met Rockwulf.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amelia G

Uhm, one person felt you should be supporting what you said in more of a debate style and engaging in less argument-style name-calling, but nobody said you should not debate. One person is not a majority, although the majority of people probably find it unlikely that you just happened to have interest in nothing over here except promoting Burning Man but did not come over to solely to promote Burning Man. I note that you quoted everyone but me on this topic, so let me help you find what I wrote:

If you are focusing on the idea that maybe you should stomp off in a huff because you can't remotely back up what you were saying, then I will be disappointed, maybe not surprised, but disappointed to discover that you were just repeating marketing bullet points which you yourself could not support factually in any way which would be clear and communicate to others.

My point is not to repeat marketing bullet points, my point is to defend my thoughts in the best possible, eloquent way. The only reason I revisited your quote. . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amelia G

Golly gee, call the Burning Man spammer a spammer and they don't come back. I bet that means they not guilty.

. . . is because I felt it was extremely insulting, especially since you know nothing about me and why I am here. I am actually interested in a lot of different subjects related with alternative culture, the only reason I chose Burning Man is because it is coming up in august, and I use it as an inspirational source. Now, since I've entangled myself in this debate, I will follow through with it. Can you see why I was insulted by your remark?

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Can you see why I was insulted by your remark?

Can you see why, just having walked in and us not knowing you from Eve, we have no reason to yet give a fuck?

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikerpunk

I'm not telling you to do anything.

I'm suggesting courtesy.
If you walk into someone's house and there's a disagreement within the first few seconds about what's going on, one typically understands one should probably politely address the misunderstanding, or leave, unless one deliberately is wishing to provoke a fight.

There's "hang on, I think you misunderstood what I meant here" which is debating the owner, and having a chip on your shoulder, which is arguing.

It's Amelia and Forrest's bandwidth, man. She could EASILY choose to ban anyone who doesn't begin every sentence with "may it please the almighty, beautiful Amelia G!" however, Amelia is rather kickass and will put up with a mountain of bullshit I personally wouldn't.

I just kind of object to how a) questions asked aren't being answered and b) it's turning into "poor me, everyone's telling me what to do."

You've not yet met Rockwulf.

Not saying you were. Not trying to provoke a fight. Just defending my opinion, yes I made a couple snippy remarks, but I don't think anyone seriously took it to heart, and one has to defend them self when it's them against the whole community. I don't really think it would be right of the owners just to ban me because I made a couple of snippy remarks that were in response into being insulted.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikerpunk

Can you see why, just having walked in and us not knowing you from Eve, we have no reason to yet give a fuck?

Yeah, sure, don't give a fuck for all I care. . .

Re: Burning Man 2009

That's the spirit! Welcome.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amelia G

FROZE, you still have not answered what charities does Burning Man donate to and what portion of the proceeds goes to charity?

[QUOTE=FROZE]
Local organizations in surrounding counties.
[QUOTE]
[QUOTE=FROZE]
Local organizations in surrounding counties.
[QUOTE]
Art and service organizations in Northern Nevada and the San Francisco Bay Area. "In 2007 alone BRC donated almost $130,000" They'll donate a small portion of funds each year, on top of funding other organizations:

"Gift recipients include: Nevada Museum of Art, Friend's of the Black Rock; Nevada Outdoor School; Reno Crisis Call Center; Gerlach Medical Clinic; Empire 4-H Club; Gerlach Volunteer Fire Department; Gerlach High School; Gerlach General Improvement District (GGID); Gerlach-Empire Senior Citizens Palace, Marzen House Museum; Pershing County Arts Council; Pershing County Domestic Violence Intervention; Pershing General Hospital & Nursing Care; Pershing County Friends of the Library; Pershing County Humane Society; Pershing County Community Center; Pershing County; Lovelock Boy Scouts Association; Lovelock Little League Association; Lovelock Special Olympics; Lovelock Chamber of Commerce; Lovelock Frontier Days; Lovelock Lion's Club; Kids, Horses & Rodeos; the Close Up Foundation; National History Day; Project Graduation; the Eagle Scholarship; Black Rock Arts Foundation; the Crucible; Leave No Trace/NOLS; Epic Arts and Thick Description."

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

My point is not to repeat marketing bullet points, my point is to defend my thoughts in the best possible, eloquent way. The only reason I revisited your quote. . .

If what you are saying has to do with what you believe and is not just a laundry list of Burning Man marketing bullet points, you should be able to support it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

. . . is because I felt it was extremely insulting, especially since you know nothing about me and why I am here. I am actually interested in a lot of different subjects related with alternative culture, the only reason I chose Burning Man is because it is coming up in august, and I use it as an inspirational source. Now, since I've entangled myself in this debate, I will follow through with it. Can you see why I was insulted by your remark?

Why do you keep re-responding to older statements in this thread and not addressing new ones?

Re: Burning Man 2009

Someone help me with the math here. What is $18,000,000 minus $130,000 to charity minus $12,000 for a camp site minus estimated fines for abusing the hot springs and any costs for security and medical?

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amelia G

Someone help me with the math here. What is $18,000,000 minus $130,000 to charity minus $12,000 for a camp site minus estimated fines for abusing the hot springs and any costs for security and medical?

A ripoff.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Some new info open to sarcastic remarks:

From the Burning Man Website

"Artist Rights and Responsibilities

You have the right to protect the image of your artwork or performance.
You have the right to ask someone to stop taking images of your art or performance if you don't approve.
You have the right to be credited for authorship of your artwork wherever possible in any commercial use of your work, and perhaps to receive a payment.
You have the right to enforce copyright and trademark ownership of your unique work. To have the greatest legal protection, artists should apply for a copyright.

Photographers and videographers should obtain your signature on a release or license in order to make any use of images of your work for commercial purposes. Images used in editorial works (e.g., news or editorial articles) may not require a signed release. However, any image that contains identifying features of Burning Man (e.g., the Man, lampposts, street signs, other art, etc., or where Burning Man has funded the work of art), must also receive permission from Burning Man and/or affected people and artists.
In cases of editorial use, such as news or editorial magazine articles, Burning Man encourages the media to credit specific artists.

The copyright of any unique design, written work, artwork or performance is owned by the person or group of people who created it. You must ask permission before filming or photographing such artwork and performances and obtain signed model/property license(s) or release(s) from all appropriate parties before using them commercially.
Black Rock City-specific imagery includes images of the Man and Burning Man commissioned artworks, aerial views of Black Rock City and any other imagery that can be identified specifically with the Burning Man event."

So if you are working on a commissioned artpiece then the copyright belongs to Burning Man, which isn't so bad, at least this gives some artists the chance to get thier names out there. . .

Re: Burning Man 2009

Basically if you're a photographer, you're screwed. You can't use any of your photographs for commercial use which destroys the point of being a photographer at burning man. . .

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

Basically if you're a photographer, you're screwed. You can't use any of your photographs for commercial use which destroys the point of being a photographer at burning man. . .

I don't think it destroys it. I'm a photographer, some might even say established, but I may very well not have any commercial intention for pics I shot at BM. However, that doesn't mean I'm cool with sharing rights. If it is indeed my intention to NOT use them commercially, the terms communicated to us by BM staff would indicate that they could actually force the commercial use of images I created regardless of my personal will.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

However, any image that contains identifying features of Burning Man (e.g., the Man, lampposts, street signs, other art, etc., or where Burning Man has funded the work of art), must also receive permission from Burning Man and/or affected people and artists.

Freedom of the press means that an honest journalist giving genuine coverage of an event can't run the piece by the event for approval and permission. Anyone who opposes freedom of the press in this manner is, at least in this area, espousing fascist ideology.

Now, I'll be out for a few because I have to go vote. Voting being one of the rights I have as an American and all and me being a believer in civic responsibility.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForrestBlack

I don't think it destroys it. I'm a photographer, some might even say established, but I may very well not have any commercial intention for pics I shot at BM. However, that doesn't mean I'm cool with sharing rights. If it is indeed my intention to NOT use them commercially, the terms communicated to us by BM staff would indicate that they could actually force the commercial use of images I created regardless of my personal will.

Speaking for myself, as a photographer, I like to document my experiences and get practice, but the whole reason for me to even bring my camera to burning man would be to try to gain good material that could be used commercially. For me personal is commercial in a sense. . . So it does destroy it for me (and others) because of this. . .

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

Speaking for myself, as a photographer, I like to document my experiences and get practice, but the whole reason for me to even bring my camera to burning man would be to try to gain good material that could be used commercially. For me personal is commercial in a sense. . . So it does destroy it for me (and others) because of this. . .

So you don't really have personal work and want to use all of your work commercially but only on sites where huge corporations like News Corp/FOX benefit and where you and the photographic subjects do not benefit? I have to confess I'm not sure I get what you are saying. It might just be that, being a part of Burning Man, you have a much more commercial outlook than mine, but I'm finding what you are saying here puzzling.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

Speaking for myself, as a photographer, I like to document my experiences and get practice, but the whole reason for me to even bring my camera to burning man would be to try to gain good material that could be used commercially. For me personal is commercial in a sense. . . So it does destroy it for me (and others) because of this. . .

When someone makes a legal rights grab like BM does, your personal motivations are rendered moot. It doesn't matter what your intentions are. What you created is no longer your child. This is a reasonable and serious objection. Holding this as an objection says nothing about my commercial or non-commercial perspective at all. It's simply about protecting my rights.

Re: Burning Man 2009

The only thing the "Artist Rights and Responsibilities" seems to say in regards to BM is that if you are shooting for commercial use, you need their permission. That's it. So the rest of that whole text doesn't apply to this discussion it seems as it's all typical stuff - getting release forms, etc...

What's missing from this entire thread is BM's official "Written Request Terms".

Re: Burning Man 2009

I'm saying: that as an artist I like to set my standards high. I want to create superb work that has the potential to make me money. I want my work to be commercialized so I can make money to create and survive. If I have to surrender my rights a couple times before making it as an artist, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Hell, I'll create something I know won't be considered mine just for people to enjoy. I'll put myself on the line to try and tap into people's awareness of art and culture just to try and make a difference. I'll make something for just for the experience- good or bad. Crafting flows through my veins and I am satisfied just to be doing what my mind craves. Yes, it would be nice to get paid, but if I learn to control the feat of wanting, then I can teach myself how to handle disappointment in a more efficient way.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

uhh how do I change this post from a promotion event to a regular Blue Blood Board? I haven't the slightest idea as to why it showed up as this promotional event. Can I even do this?

?

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

I'm saying: that as an artist I like to set my standards high. I want to create superb work that has the potential to make me money. I want my work to be commercialized so I can make money to create and survive. If I have to surrender my rights a couple times before making it as an artist, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Hell, I'll create something I know won't be considered mine just for people to enjoy. I'll put myself on the line to try and tap into people's awareness of art and culture just to try and make a difference. I'll make something for just for the experience- good or bad. Crafting flows through my veins and I am satisfied just to be doing what my mind craves. Yes, it would be nice to get paid, but if I learn to control the feat of wanting, then I can teach myself how to handle disappointment in a more efficient way.

Why are you obsessing about money when I'm talking about philosophy, art, and freedom?

It is exactly this gluttonous greed for money which Burning Man appears to me to have, all the while spouting rhetoric I would agree with . . . if Burning Man believed it.

What opportunity do you think you are going to get as an artist, which is going to get you paid enough to live off just your art, for letting other people snarf your work?

Re: Burning Man 2009

Froze... You should really fill out your profile, intro post, jump into other discussions, post funny ass pictures of cats doing funny things, post YOUR pictures, etc.,

One thing I've noticed about BB Forums is that when you do that, people warm up to you a bit more. I've been running forums/websites and hell, BBSes for years (just scan for my posts and read) and so I'm usually a stickler for filling all that crap out on every damn forum I join, but BB is different. I know (well enough) the owners and by reading / lurking for a while I felt it was important to delurk and do what was asked not because it was a power trip to fulfill for BB, but because it helps in getting to know people here which is a MAJOR PROBLEM with online forums/communities where the norm is to just ASSUME not only your own identities in a false-representative way, but to also READ people the wrong way... It's such a cluster-fuck on most other forums because of that.

Sorry... major run on sentence I know... but you get the idea. You seem like a pretty unique and fun individual if you've really been going to BM for 10 years as again, I know the types and I know what BM stands for - Just jumping on here and blasting one thing without this pre-requisite makes it hard for us to really grok it all cause we don't know ya yet. ;-)

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

?

It was moved because it seemed like a promotion to an event rather than discussion. No you can't change it. That is up to Amelia or Forrest.

Just to answer your question. :cool: <~BM Goggle man! ©

Re: Burning Man 2009

ohnoes! the dreaded circle c! far more powerful than the circle tm! eep!

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Bat

. . . I think FROZE, being new here, may of jumped in all excited about something without thought to consequence...

Yes, FROZE did. Not “all excited” But at least hoping to be treated as an equal and connect with a community through productive criticism and debate, not right off the bat be swamped with antagonistic ideals of hypocrisy. But consequence to what? Wanting to connect with artists, and instead getting hammered by people obsessed with the financial figures, only to later accuse her of being obsessed with money? How was she to know that her simple plea to connect with artists on a philosophically constructive level would consequently be trampled by people who claim seniority with no real regard for others’ artistic processes? “How can you expect us to treat you as an equal when we don‘t even know you?” Well, I give everyone a certain, standard amount of respect, when I jump into a new environment (or if someone jumps into mine), regardless if I know them or not.

It has become apparent that it is preference not to acknowledge that I have made many relevant points, (that I have backed up). It doesn’t seem like there is desire to even try to comprehend my points. But I can see how it is much easier to ignore my ideas and disregard them as insufficient, and then pound on your chest with a highly controversial, mudslinging, judgment-based remark of distraction that has nothing to do with the real issues I brought up in the first place: ART, PHILOSOPHY, SELF-EXPRESSION. . . and ultimately shifts the whole median of topic(s) to something that draws attention away from them, and focuses on all negative aspects. I get the impression that there are deliberate attempts to try and run people off with sharp, coarse tactics that are intended to be intimidating; it can be empowering when someone can’t back themselves up and ends up bolting- just another person you know you’re smarter than.

Let me try to clarify. All my work is personal, but I want it to be commercial. For me, ‘personal’ entails self-compensation, ‘the feeling I get when I accomplished a piece;‘ “commercial” entails being compensated by others: ‘the feeling I get when others accept/enjoy/understand (to an extent) my work and want to give me something for it.’ I wouldn’t necessarily say I have a commercial outlook, I just have practical, willful life tactics that I try to substantiate into -my definition of- beneficial investments financial or abstract or artful. As a human, I am inclined to view financial matters as a source of survival, especially since we live in a world fraught with inescapable, materialistic commercialism. It’s fucking everywhere! Name one webpage you’ve seen that doesn’t have an add of some sort nailed to it!

Fiscal obsession is not my mark. In this world, money and survival are hand in hand. I do not care to obsess over that which has destroyed this world with greed, falsification, devaluation of life, and a created a fabricated slum of this world -money. Yet we all need it to survive. “The Almighty Dollar,” without it we think we cannot flourish, succeed, live . . . as grim as it sounds, it is all too true, too true to ignore. *You can’t honestly think that this whole world is not obsessed with money, can you? You’re obviously obsessed, at least that‘s the impression from your previous replies. Since I do not have a trust fund, I must be concerned with money, it is, just like voting, an adult responsibility.

I can understand the concerns of hypocrisy that follow something like Burning Man, and
I can see why it may be counterproductive to some that Burning Man has allegedly “raped the heart” of artists that give all they’ve got to creating something that will be used to make more money for people who don’t need it, and on top of it throw in bunk legalities that they themselves mock, but at the same time it has kick-started a generation of artists that are content to do this. If they feel they can acquire something from attending BM (non-financially) then that would in fact make them the opposite of money-obsessed. It shows that they are able to disregard money. And thus, the whole “gift economy” could be a valid attempt to stress this point. Many artists that attend BM work for BM, so this means they ARE getting paid. Luckily BM has enough gull to pay it’s employees, huh?

If you really disagree with the legalities involved with BM, and truly think they are taking advantage of everyone who attends, take a look at any corporation. Why not try and start your own festival and see if you can manage to provide all the proper services and follow all the government rules without attempting to make a profit of some sort, to fund all the necessary expenditures? Would you do all of this for free? I think not. Try this and see if you are able to keep the media away when 60,000 people attend.

Since you are all so inclined to speak about money, let me address these standpoints. I find it humorous that there are so many negative opinions of something that is essentially an economy-boosting, creative-minded, art-producing, free-thinking organization that is actually one of the most positive and successful businesses in this country, meanwhile there are companies out stealing taxpayers’ money, spending money they don’t have on foreign oil to run vehicles we can’t afford, money, money money. Maybe if this society wasn’t run by greedy contradictory hounds, I could actually relax on a mountain-top without having to worry about paying all my bills. But maybe you can see how easy it is to get caught up in the degeneration called money.

Then there’s the people out there sitting around, feeding into the scoundrels, people who don’t know how to bring purpose into their lives, so they: pay cable companies to be brainwashed through television, invest in mass-produced commercial “rebellious” music that steals money from “fans”, and ultimately makes people think dreadfully alike by raping independence, spend money on “economy-boosting” holiday attire, and products that just end up in a landfill, go to the “Bible Superstore” Jesus christ! Can you imagine how many trees are dead because of this fucking store? Now that‘s truly a corrupt company. . . These are fascist ploys designed to make money by targeting a particular crowd. My point is that everyone has hobbies/participates in activities that occupy their time, and there is always an element of corporate idealism when something catches on. Everything can be viewed as hypocritical if one chooses to look closely. It’s almost impossible to escape this unless you are part of an independent tribal ring, and live only off the land you inhabit, regretfully, these lifestyles are trampled upon, as well, by people who think they know what is best for this earth- truly unfortunate.

The point is that Burning Man is a lucrative business that’s goal is not to take advantage of all it’s attendees, the truth is people are willing to pay for this “service” because they know nothing is free. If it’s free, it’s probably illegal! Burning Man helps boost the economy in many productive ways, more-so than the majority of corporations in the States.

I commend the original creators of Burning Man for their success in building a multi-million dollar art-based operation that secures their futures (while definitely not destroying others‘ futures). They didn’t start out as entrepreneurs, they started out as all artists do: longing for acceptance, understanding, and the ability to let loose and celebrate regardless of the numerous barriers that humans set up for themselves. Along the way, maybe they have made some ideological errors, but for the most part, the common idea is recognized by the participants that still attend Burning Man.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Bat

Froze... You should really fill out your profile, intro post, jump into other discussions, post funny ass pictures of cats doing funny things, post YOUR pictures, etc.,

One thing I've noticed about BB Forums is that when you do that, people warm up to you a bit more. I've been running forums/websites and hell, BBSes for years (just scan for my posts and read) and so I'm usually a stickler for filling all that crap out on every damn forum I join, but BB is different. I know (well enough) the owners and by reading / lurking for a while I felt it was important to delurk and do what was asked not because it was a power trip to fulfill for BB, but because it helps in getting to know people here which is a MAJOR PROBLEM with online forums/communities where the norm is to just ASSUME not only your own identities in a false-representative way, but to also READ people the wrong way... It's such a cluster-fuck on most other forums because of that.

Sorry... major run on sentence I know... but you get the idea. You seem like a pretty unique and fun individual if you've really been going to BM for 10 years as again, I know the types and I know what BM stands for - Just jumping on here and blasting one thing without this pre-requisite makes it hard for us to really grok it all cause we don't know ya yet. ;-)

I had filled it out, but then I started getting ripped on, so I figured I’d delete it. I’ll add some tid-bits in the future, but I don’t really think many people here would care to get to know me unless I’m a submissive punch bag. They have their own agendas, and I’ve obviously tried to come into this with a positive attitude (which I never have) and it’s just shows me what I knew all along. . . But thanks for the advice. It seems you are able to voice your opinion and standpoints, while still managing to remain completely neutral.

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

I had filled it out, but then I started getting ripped on, so I figured I’d delete it. I’ll add some tid-bits in the future, but I don’t really think many people here would care to get to know me unless I’m a submissive punch bag. They have their own agendas, and I’ve obviously tried to come into this with a positive attitude (which I never have) and it’s just shows me what I knew all along. . . But thanks for the advice. It seems you are able to voice your opinion and standpoints, while still managing to remain completely neutral.

I'd love to get to know you! Hell I'm always interested in meeting new people and finding new perspectives that challenge my own way of thinking! Judging from your posts you seem like you have a unique point of view and have had a lot of interesting experiences in life and its always fun to talk to people like that :D

Having said that though...I gotta admit you do have an extensive amount of knowledge about Burning Man especially about the money aspect of it and if you step outside of your view point for a bit you might be able to see how you come off as an employee of Burning Man and not just a woman who has grown up going to the Festival for years.

I'm just saying....

Re: Burning Man 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by FROZE

I had filled it out, but then I started getting ripped on, so I figured I’d delete it. I’ll add some tid-bits in the future, but I don’t really think many people here would care to get to know me unless I’m a submissive punch bag. They have their own agendas, and I’ve obviously tried to come into this with a positive attitude (which I never have) and it’s just shows me what I knew all along. . . But thanks for the advice. It seems you are able to voice your opinion and standpoints, while still managing to remain completely neutral.

My only agenda is to be able to enjoy a festival for what it says it is. To be able to practice my own creativity, which they say they encourage, without it being unreasonably taken from me, which they have flat out told me they would do. I don't have anything against BM intrinsically, it's just that the rhetoric and the terms don't come close to matching up, and this disappoints me.

This victim hood thing wears thin when an awfully knowledgeable BM 'fan' with no post count and no profile to speak of shows up here almost every year with the same unsustainable bullet points and marketing message. This may in fact be your first time running it up the flag pole, but we see it time and time again. Yet nobody has been able to give me solid assurance that my concerns are unfounded. This is not a dastardly agenda and I hardly feel like I'm making you into some sort of submissive punching bag. I want you to stand up and hold solid positions backed by actual fact if you are going to make the claims.