Mongols Raided: Feds seeking to seize control of the Mongols' trademarked name

Reducing crime is one thing, but I kind of think seizing trademarks is a bit inappropriate. The social and political implications of confiscating group identity seem so obviously bad. I mean, what are they going to do? Pull people over for copyright infringement?
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http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...0,754213.story

More than 1,000 heavily armed federal agents and local police fanned out across Southern California and cities in five other states early this morning, arresting dozens of members of the notorious Mongols motorcycle gang on federal racketeering charges.

But the most lasting blow to the San Gabriel Valley-based bikers may be down the road: In an unusual maneuver, the feds are also seeking to seize control of the Mongols' trademarked name, which is typically accompanied by its cherished insignia -- a ponytailed Genghis Khan-like figure riding a chopper.

U.S. Attorney Thomas P. O'Brien said if his plan is successful, the government would take over ownership of the trademark, and anyone caught wearing a Mongols patch could have it seized by law enforcement on the spot.

"Not only are we going after the Mongols' motorcycles, we're going after their very identity," O'Brien said in a telephone interview early this morning. "We are using all the tools at our disposal to crush this violent gang."

In addition to racketeering, the Mongols are charged with committing violent crimes -- including murder -- drug trafficking, weapons offenses and money laundering. They used guns, knives, brass knuckles, lead pipes and steel-toed boots to impose their will, often on rivals such as the Hells Angels, but also on unsuspecting members of the public who happened to cross their paths, according to a 177-page indictment unsealed this morning.

The indictment, the first three pages of which list 79 gang member defendants with menacing monikers such as "Monster," "Danger" and "Violent Ed," is drawn largely from the observations of four undercover ATF agents who infiltrated the gang and four current Mongols members who became paid informants for the government. Investigators also relied heavily on wiretapped telephone calls in which Mongols, usually speaking in coded language, discussed the gang's allegedly criminal operations.

The unidentified agents, who spent several years working to gain the Mongols' trust, were checked out by a private investigator hired by the gang and given polygraph exams before being formally admitted in 2007.

Though this is not the first time the ATF has penetrated the Mongols, having four undercover agents in the gang at once, coupled with the cooperation of four Mongols, provided authorities with a particularly broad view of its inner workings, officials said.

The Mongols were formed in the 1970s by a small group of Latinos who had been rejected from the Hell's Angels because of their ethnicity, as the story goes. The gang now has between 500 and 600 members, the vast majority of them in Southern California, according to law enforcement officials.

The gang has a constitution and bylaws and some of the trappings of more conventional organizations -- its members are provided Nextel phones, for example. Decisions regarding membership, dues collection and club policy are made by leaders known in the gang as the "Mother Chapter." They have a headquarters in West Covina stocked with assault rifles, shotguns and bulletproof vests, according to the indictment.

As with many organizations, patches are awarded to signify the status or achievements of its members, though the behavior celebrated by the Mongols differs from most. For instance, a skull and crossbones patch or one proclaiming, "Respect Few, Fear None," is given to members who commit murder or other acts of violence on behalf of the gang, according to the indictment. One member was given permission to have the gang's insignia tattooed on his head for having shot two members of a rival street gang last year, the indictment alleges.

There are also patches associated with the gang's alleged sexual rituals. Members are awarded wings of varying colors for engaging in sex acts with women at pre-arranged "wing parties," the indictment states. Members who have sex with a woman with venereal disease are given green wings; those who have sex with a woman's corpse are given purple wings, according to the indictment.

The Mongols fund their organization largely through the sale of methamphetamine, according to the indictment. Undercover agents documented dozens of alleged drug deals ranging in quantity from a few grams to half a kilo. Many of the alleged sales were made to undercover agents or confidential informants cooperating with authorities, the indictment states.

But violence seemed to be at the heart of the Mongols' existence.

One undercover agent said he was told early in his effort to infiltrate the gang that he "must be willing to kill and die for the Mongols if he wanted to join the organization."

Much of the violence described in the indictment involved clashes between the Mongols and their longtime rivals, the Hells Angels.

Mongols' members are accused of tangling with the Hells Angels at a Laughlin, Nev., casino in 2002, at a "Toys for Tots" motorcycle run in 2005, and at a Chuck E. Cheese in San Diego last year. Two Hells Angels and one Mongol were killed in the Nevada casino incident, the indictment alleges.

But the violence was not limited to disputes between warring gangs. Some attacks were motivated by race -- the mostly Latino gang is intolerant of African Americans, authorities say -- and some appeared random.

Two Mongols, known as "Villain" and "Danger," are accused of beating a man to death with a pool cue in a Lancaster nightclub on Valentine's Day last year because he had been badmouthing the gang. Another member is accused of shooting patrons of a Riverside bar and then trying to run them over in the parking lot, also in 2007. A Mongol known as "Dago Bull" told an undercover agent that he and two fellow Mongols tortured a man in 2006 by breaking his knuckles with pliers and one of his knees with a metal pipe. Another member boasted of having beaten a man so badly that he knocked out a tooth, which he kept taped to his microwave as a souvenir.

A Mongol known as "Monster" and two other members are accused of beating a black man at a Hollywood bar in 2006 while shouting racial slurs, the indictment states. Other members beat and repeatedly stabbed a Latina woman whom they saw in the company of a black man.

Those arrested are expected to make their initial appearance in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles this afternoon.

That is a highly suspect maneuver by the feds to say the least. It is troubling that they would take that angle. "Going after their very identity"? Ominous.

OEC

if you have dealt with them you would understand why the government is doing it... i don't necessarily agree with it... but these guys are pretty messed up...

but it does lend itself to the "what next" catagory...

a mongol killed a friend of mine in San Francisco last month...

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Originally Posted by jonny.illuminati

if you have dealt with them you would understand why the government is doing it... i don't necessarily agree with it... but these guys are pretty messed up...

but it does lend itself to the "what next" catagory...

a mongol killed a friend of mine in San Francisco last month...

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That's horrible. I'm really sorry to hear that. I don't know much about the raid or that particular gang, but the trademark grab stuck out to me.

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Originally Posted by ForrestBlack

That's horrible. I'm really sorry to hear that. I don't know much about the raid or that particular gang, but the trademark grab stuck out to me.

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i agree... while i have no love for the mongols... i'm surprised to see the feds try to grab a TM... it will be interesting to see what their legal grounds are... does it fall under RICO or Drug Bust Seizure rules like cash/cars/houses...

it is an effective way to cripple an MC... however they have never tried to "confiscate" the 81 winged death head...

i'm sure the mongol that killed my friend will be paid back... but that of course continues the cycle of violence etc...

didn't wyatt earp do the same thing?

The dude that called the owner of my tattoo shop to stir up shit that had nothing whatsoever to do with him, told my boss the following, that he was going to : "beat my face in, make me suck his dick, and leave" (because I'm a faggot) ..his words


i dont even know the guy and he talks so much shit about me, and he was starting drama because I was supposedly talking shit about his business partner (who's also a piercer, according to them the BEST BODY MODIFIER in the WORLD)... As far as me talking shit, it's not true--they got it all wrong, it's actually opposite, they're the ones always with my name in their mouths...but whatever, truth is that I don't care about his partner at all, I dont care what he does or what they do or how famous they are or whatever..

damn this turned into an LJ entry..bleh..i just got all into it all of a sudden..hehe

violence isn't the key.

I would say it says a lot about the nature of intellectual property law that a trademark changing hands means you can be legally targetted for wearing a symbol or using a name.

That crap is bad enough without law enforcement getting involved. Ugh, that's two of my least favorite things in the world right there.

I didn't know what motorcycle gangs were such a big problem. All it is really going to accomplish is filling the justice system up with people for wearing t-shirts and such and take resources away from going against the gang members that are actually real criminals.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

I didn't know what motorcycle gangs were such a big problem. All it is really going to accomplish is filling the justice system up with people for wearing t-shirts and such and take resources away from going against the gang members that are actually real criminals.

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I don't think that's what they're looking to achieve.

Law enforcement love having legal excuses to arrest or otherwise hinder people for 'crimes' other than the one they're actually trying to pin on the individual in question, to bypass the obstacle that people have certain rights and liberties that by default prevent some of the more intrusive investigation techniques - or at least, prevent their results being court-legal, since it's not like cops actually stop using them just cause they're illigal. Having something minor but court-solid to pin on someone means they get to bring in bigger toys or less conscientously gained evidence in on the case they're actually after.

There's a whole ladder of states of suspect and accusal, and anytime they get to take you up a step for something irrelevant, they get access to new means to look for something bigger. It's like, pro-active crime fighting.

uh, in america isn't everyone free to arm themselves and protect themselves from thier government.........................isn't that the origin of the american 'gun' thing?

They're free to a degree to arm themselves, but at the point where you're using guns to protect yourself from your government, it's pretty irrelevant whether they acknowledge your right to do so or not. I daresay they probably won't, though.

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

I didn't know what motorcycle gangs were such a big problem. All it is really going to accomplish is filling the justice system up with people for wearing t-shirts and such and take resources away from going against the gang members that are actually real criminals.

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only people that are actually patch holders in ANY motorcycle club can wear the insignia/logo whether it is on a t-shirt or otherwise... so it wont take resources away.... you can't wear MFFM or the ghenhis khan logo without being a full member...

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Originally Posted by Mr Karl

uh, in america isn't everyone free to arm themselves and protect themselves from thier government.........................isn't that the origin of the american 'gun' thing?

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not quite... you are free to own certain guns... carrying a gun concealed is a whole different matter.l....

well anyway, civilization is completely built one gang taking out another gang and outlawing thier 'trademarks'.................it's human nature

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Originally Posted by jonny.illuminati

only people that are actually patch holders in ANY motorcycle club can wear the insignia/logo whether it is on a t-shirt or otherwise... so it wont take resources away.... you can't wear MFFM or the ghenhis khan logo without being a full member...

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what I meant is that hauling in every two bit loser who's in the gang won't accomplish anything. the guys that they really want to get to aren't going to be got at this way. I think raza is right, that it's just an attempt to shake them down, they do the same thing with colors and signs for all the other gangs. it's a good excuse for a cop to take a look at you, but it's ultimately kind of pointless. you can't arrest people just for the way they dress, and if you do, then the jails will be full of people for that and that they can't pin anything else on, which is what I said would be a waste of resources, it takes up all the cells and all the prosecutors wasting their time.

Sure you can prove he is a gang member, but just based on that can you prove that he's committed more crimes? that is the problem.

Then you have some gangs that don't show displays of loyalty, they also don't have petty rivalries, and they don't have a problem with mixing up their illegal enterprises with legal activities, all the better to avoid detection- look at the mafia. that's why they were so successful, and something like this really wouldn't have worked against them.

you can never get rid of gangs, they are an integral part of capitalism. when you get big enough you aren't called a gang anymore, you're called the government or corporation, and they do the same exact shit. that's why we have a military. and don't forget the boys in blue, they are maybe the biggest gang there is, and they like to wear colors and flash their insignia too, all the way. it's just like karl said.

Corruption goes long way back in history

The idea of stopping someone and taking away their insignia is a misreading of trademark law, either by whoever gave that quote or the reporter who put out the article.

Trademark law in the US is predominantly civil - you can claim damages for infringement and apply for injunctions to prevent unlicensed manufacture, but pre-existing items which were authorized by the mark holder (i.e. all the patches out there as of now) cannot be affected by a change in mark ownership. Unless the Feds can show they had their own pre-dated trademark for the insignia, they can't do a thing about the 'official' patches already produced, only try to stop future production.

IMO it's simply an attempt to turn off a revenue stream, by blocking their ability to sell licensed merchandise a-la Hell's Angels.

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Originally Posted by Mindgames

IMO it's simply an attempt to turn off a revenue stream, by blocking their ability to sell licensed merchandise a-la Hell's Angels.

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I'm not so sure. I suppose it's possible that you might be right about the merch motivation, but my interpretation of the logic is that it's akin to taking someones flag. That if you take the symbol away by literally owning it, somehow that will undermine the group affiliation.

I was also speaking to the trademark issue only. I don't condone the behavior of this group at all. Hopefully, a lot of prosecutions of individual members committing these acts will be forthcoming. The sentences should be very harsh.

OEC

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Originally Posted by Morning Glory

Sure you can prove he is a gang member, but just based on that can you prove that he's committed more crimes? that is the problem.

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actually in the case of the mongols they have smaller "merit badge" patches that they are given for certain acts... now that there have been 4 undercover agents (second time this has happened to the mongols) they have a clear understanding of what the different patches mean... and some of them are for outright murder and other crimes...

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Originally Posted by ForrestBlack

I'm not so sure. I suppose it's possible that you might be right about the merch motivation, but my interpretation of the logic is that it's akin to taking someones flag. That if you take the symbol away by literally owning it, somehow that will undermine the group affiliation.

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the actual mongol 3 piece patch is never seen on "support" merchandise... again you cannot wear any part of that "logo" in any way unless you are a full member... the Hells Angels make some good money with their support merchandise, but it never has the winged death head on it or the words hells angels... always the number 81... and words "red and white"

another interesting fact is in the mongols constitution and bylaws (like all real MCs) the 3 piece patch is the property of the club not the individual wearing it... they have serial numbers and are tracked by the club better than the Feds track registered firearms...

i have issues with the Feds seizing the copyright... and i am curious as to how thay are going to do it... but they can seize cash/bank accounts/houses/cars etc when there are drug or RICO crimes so i'm sure they can figure a way to prove it is "property" used in conjunction with crime and therefore seize it in perpetuity (both before and after "illegal" use). it is the clubs identity... people will AND have died just for the colors... see what happens if you touch someones MC colors in a bar... i wouldn't recommend even touching someones colors that you know... strange world if you don't live in it

How does that work when Mongolssometimes have the logo or name tattooed on themselves, rather than just a patch?

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Originally Posted by Nixon

How does that work when Mongols sometimes have the logo or name tattooed on themselves, rather than just a patch?

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damn... good question...

well i do know that if someone is put out bad they have to remove or black out the club logos/tattoos... if they are put out real bad sometimes they are cut or burnt off (yes that was on SoA and it really does happen)... even the tattoos remain the property of the MC and must meet approval of the Club Officers and General Members...

but how the hell will the FEDs enforce that... i can't see the FEDs burning ink off of patcholders...

hm. you seem to know a lot more on this subject than I do Jonny, so I'll take your word for it.

Huh, this is a really interesting situation.

If the feds can use this as a precedent then it opens up a whole lot of weirdness, although most of it can only be speculated at via a vastly more dystopian/totalitarian situation than we currently find ourselves in. The idea that the state can seize, and control one's copyrighted "identity", verges on dickensian paranoic implications... philip k. dick that is...

I haven't got too much to add to the discussion of MC's in general. I kind of shrug at the whole phenomena. It ain't my thing, ain't my scene, and ain't none of my business.

I like organized crime as much as the next guy, and it seems to me that the feds would have a better time going for RICO, but in all honesty there seem to be far more dangerous and aggressive gangs out there that they could be spending their time on. Not that they should let one criminal gang slide if they can prove illegality, but whatever.

i have some insight into the MC world... and like i said no love for the Mongols in general (previous post on thread.... they murdered a friend of mine in San Fran in September...)

but the feds taking the logo? any lawyers online? any precedent for this? i am full of speculation and want to see these guys go down... will be interesting to see how many of the charges stick...

well, when it's said they are going to sieze it it sort of implies that they have thier own use for it, otherwise why bother siezing anything?

siezing something like that is not cost effective.

with a bit of work though they could make it very uncool to wear insignia that looks like it.

last time I checked it wasn't particularily cool to wear a swastika armband around

well the problem is that this isn't really a sort of pop-culture thing, so there is no use trying to propagandize it, it does that on it's own. people who are nazis are going to wear the arm bands, there is no need to try and dissuade people from it, it's exactly the negative meaning that appeals towards the people that are into it. same thing with gangs, really. although to a less extreme extent.

what you could do is go in the opposite direction with it and de-stigmatize it, so that everyone is now wearing those insignia, but I don't really see how that would achieve anything but making it more difficult to stop gangs and violence, since you could no longer identity who was and who wasn't.

Yep sure gonna be hard to call themselves the Mongol Horde and add a new hairstyle to their logo.

another thing that is kind of silly to me is that they appear to have entirely missed the fact that there is a world nation called Mongolia. so how can you tell people that they aren't allowed to use the name "mongols"? what if all the members of this biker gang became honorary citizens of Mongolia, then they would really be the mongols and there's nothing that they could do about it...

on the other hand the US doesn't recognize duel-citizenship and it holds the right to deny visas to foreigners.. I think I have just came up with a solution to the problem. the Chinese are really going to be pissed.

I figure that if the FED proves that the gang as a whole is a "criminal corporation" then all they have to say to the courts is by selling any certain kind of insignia it is helping to fund the illegal organization. Followed by asking the court to allow the FEDs to comendere all Mongol insignias.

I would then figure that the mongols would have attorneys to prove that at least not all insignias are used to sell merchandise and those insignias probably could not be legally confiscated.

In a way, it's an offshoot of funding terrorists. In America, as in many countries now, it is illegal to do so. Although the mongols are not terrorists, they are seen as criminals (to the FEDs) as are the terrorists. If the FED proves that the insignias help fund the Mongols and the the Mongols are criminals like terrorists, they can probably call for said confiscation in conjunction with laws we use against terrorists.

It's like this. The Patriot Act was enacted to help in the fight against terrorists, yet, come on, it so helps certain govermental agencies in fighting so many other crimes that have nothing to do with terrorists.

The funny thing is, the better way to damage them would be to dilute the symbol.

You seize the logos (if they are trademarked) as criminal assets. Then, instead of confiscating the symbol you make it as common as crab grass.

Kinda like what happened to Che.

yeah, but how much you want to bet that you can't walk around with a che shirt in cuba?

further legal stuff....:

seems that they can seize the trademarked stuff.... but under TM law they have to continue to use it... so here is a link to an article that makes a little fun of the FEDs idea...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10...ker_trademark/

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Originally Posted by Cafe_Post_Mortem

The funny thing is, the better way to damage them would be to dilute the symbol.

You seize the logos (if they are trademarked) as criminal assets. Then, instead of confiscating the symbol you make it as common as crab grass.

Kinda like what happened to Che.

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So you'd have a huge, mainstream accessible public expressing their support of a supposedly criminal motorcycle club?

Diluting symbols pisses off elitists, but it strengthens their position in a socio-political reconing.

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Originally Posted by jonny.illuminati

further legal stuff....:

seems that they can seize the trademarked stuff.... but under TM law they have to continue to use it... so here is a link to an article that makes a little fun of the FEDs idea...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10...ker_trademark/

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:1orglaugh This is priceless.

On a serious note, the USA doesn't really export much of anything besides intellectual property, so we really ought not fuck with the basic precepts of it.

I'm vaguely surprised that an apparently criminal enterprise like that would bother registering a trademark, rather than just, ya know, enforcing locally.

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Originally Posted by Amelia G

:1orglaugh This is priceless.

On a serious note, the USA doesn't really export much of anything besides intellectual property, so we really ought not fuck with the basic precepts of it.

I'm vaguely surprised that an apparently criminal enterprise like that would bother registering a trademark, rather than just, ya know, enforcing locally.

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you would think that threats of death would do the trick, but the Hells Angels (81) more specifically Sonny Barger started that trend... they registered everything and became a Corporate MC first... now of course all MCs protect their logos with violence and such, but they have the added protection of legal means as well... check out Sonny Barger suing Showtime over a show called 1 percenters....

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Originally Posted by jonny.illuminati

you would think that threats of death would do the trick, but the Hells Angels (81) more specifically Sonny Barger started that trend... they registered everything and became a Corporate MC first... now of course all MCs protect their logos with violence and such, but they have the added protection of legal means as well... check out Sonny Barger suing Showtime over a show called 1 percenters....

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I actually think it kinda makes sense. It just surprised me.