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I have massive respect for pole dancers, but let's face facts. You're athletes. You're contortionists. You're badly-paid and under-valued. BUT YOU ARE SEXY. Sorry, and all, but you are.
Therefore, being brought into a school to perform for classes of 14-yr-olds as a "fitness lesson" is probably going to arouse... debate.
At least it'll prevent this sort of thing from happening
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHvu...%2Fpage%2F4%2F
it's training for all the little dance squad/cheerleaders when they grow up and get beyond high school and need to "pay their way through law school".
i'm not saying it's right, in fact i'm fairly certain it's down right wrong, but a good 12% of those kids are going to end up working in titty bars anyway.
~K
thank god!Quote:
Originally Posted by keiko
I'm not okay with that. pole dancing or "fitness" should be 18 and up. call me conservative if you want, but i'll never agree to sexualizing a child.
Quoted for reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by VoltaireBlue
Uh, yeah I think there are other ways to get kids into shape. I'm pretty sure if you turn the pole horzontally it becomes gymnastics and the kids can avoid the stigma. Not that I don't appreciate skilled pole-dancers...I do, but I have to agree with VoltaireBlue about sexualizing children (it's wrong, wrong, WRONG!). Maybe they should teach these girls something they can use...like kickboxing or judo, that will help to build confidence and discipline instead of reinforcing negative stereotypes about the value of women.
Bah. Stupid people running schools these days.
Makes me consider homeschooling my daughter just to make sure she doesn't have to learn Blow Jobs 101 in 5th grade.
walmart employees are underpaid and under appreciated, not pole dancers.
but on topic, I'd have to agree with the majority here. I'm not going to get into the irony of turning kids into sex objects and then expressing moral outrage when adults find them sexy ( look up at the camera and smile! you're on to catch a predator! now say, "I may be sleeping with one, but I'm not smarter than a fifth grader!")
OK, OK, to get to the point, I don't think that any extra-curricular activities belong in public schools. Bring back the three R's (add spelling to the bunch too.) kids can get their exercise the way we all did in PE. other than that, if you want your kids to do sports and activities, do it on your own time and on your own dime.
I don't see the problem, and I'm pretty sure I've looked properly. It's a dance style, which while traditionally sexy is not inherently so; a non-sexual execution is definitely manageable, and the only people that could object to that are those themselves unable to look past the optional sexual interpretation of the thing. That is, people with sex somewhat oppressively on their minds, one way or another, and probably in a position to figure things out for themselves before they try to figure them out for others.
Besides, 14 year olds are generally sexually aware, often sexually active. There's no option for 'us' to 'not sexualise them'; they are sexual, just like the rest of us. We can close our eyes and pretend not to know it to suit our own topical sensitivities, but we don't really have the right to tell them to restrict their behaviour to keep us from finding out.
I'm definietly not for youngster pole excercise, but really...P.E.? They do it just like couple of days now. P.E. is almost extinct. I was never a big sportster or anything like that, but I think it's sad the health has really been brushed to the side in schools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morning Glory
There's a difference between keeping an open mind about sexuality with teens and teaching them something that will OBVIOUSLY get them in more trouble than not. I don't know about you, but I remember being a teenager, and yes, we did stupid shit all the time, but not once, when I was 14, did I go to a party where there were 20 girls who not only knew HOW to pole dance correctly, but learned it at school.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raza
Yes, we need to teach our kids safe sex. Yes, we need to talk to them about sex and all the many things that come with it. BUT there's plenty of other perfectly acceptable ways to teach them to be active, other than how to be a 14 year old stripper. Because let's face it, that's what's going to happen. "Next on news at 10, a teen party busted as several 14-16 year olds are seen stripping on poles that they borrowed from Gym class"
well I agree, I think that it needs to be brought back. It's been a while since I've been in school, just what exactly are they teaching kids these days? since it seems like everything is getting cut out, other than pole dancing, that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax Knucklebones
I don't care what anyone says. while the age of 14 may be considered adolescence, its still a child. I think its wrong, and this comming from vetran stripper.
How about we just don't bust their party, and no one gets in trouble for stripping?Quote:
Originally Posted by athenahollow
Cause I'll admit I'm a bit fuzzy and caffeine deprived right now, but the only other thing in your post that registers as a potentially objectionable is the observation that none of your past classmates knew how to pole dance. :confused:
Pole dancing is not an exercise style or a type of dancing..its a creation of strippers used to get money from men/girls to look at them in a sexual manner.
Yes Pole dancing is hot and I'm sure its a hell of a workout. No its not appropriate for an underage girl to be doing in a public school funded by our tax dollars.
What happend to running, volleyball etc?
If you can't go into a strip club when you are 14, you shouldn't be learning HOW to do it at that age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raza
There's a difference between teaching our kids the right steps to handle sexuality and sexual situations and PUSHING them into situations that are GOING to cause it.
14 year olds don't know when the subtlety of "fun dancing" runs right into "sexually objectifying" themselves. I know this. It wasn't THAT long ago when I was that age.
But let's put it in a different way. Let's say the latest class in middle school is how to properly mix a martini. Is it wrong? Yes. But why? Because 14 year olds aren't legally allowed to drink, so why the hell are we teaching them how to mix them?
The idea is you're sending the message to girls that a great way to get in shape and make alot of money..is to use your body. They dont tell you the unglamorous/dangerous/or morally broken aspects that alot of sex trade workers have to go through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raza
I understand you're in a country with very, very liberal views on this type of activity. However the culture here is not built around it. Women are not government employees undergoing std examinations who can choose who they dance/fuck.
just a side thought... in some states you can legally bartend and serve booze at 18, but can't legally drink...Quote:
Originally Posted by athenahollow
and in Europe, the age of consent and drinking is lower... (16 is the age of consent in germany)
You are correct. (*Well, I don't know about bartend, but I know that you can serve beer and the like if you have a liquor license at 18 in a restaurant, but not a bar in Indiana*)Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny.illuminati
But, there are a lot of laws in Europe that aren't in the US, so that's comparing apples and oranges. Our societies are completely different in MANY ways.
that's not true anymore. I'm pretty sure you have to be 21 everywhere now, including nevada.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny.illuminati
21 to drink anyways^
I had the same rage when I saw fuck-me boots in my daughter's size. She's 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by VoltaireBlue
What if the pole is horizontal?
Then it's ballet.
:1orglaughQuote:
Originally Posted by VoldtaEngler
A very good friend of mine is a ballerina.
If anyone thinks they aren't sexualized from a very early age, I'd say think again.
oh give me a freakin break. I haven't been to any ballet where people are drunk and they are shoving dollar bills into the g-strings of a topless ballerina. Hey all you fellas out there, on center stage we have Porsche, she's about to perform Swan Lake, and be sure to tip your waitress.
bwahahaha!!! I'd pay a million pesos to see that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morning Glory
Found a video posted from one of the kiddie's cellphones...
I'm not quite seeing the phys. ed. value in only wearing one legwarmer, so I assume we've joined the proceedings partway through.
looks like an ankle brace to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindgames
You are correct. It is an ankle brace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Friendly
I hear all the hawt strippers wear 'em.Quote:
Originally Posted by athenahollow
WV, MD, VA... the list goes on... not all states have complied...Quote:
Originally Posted by VoltaireBlue
Why not? Isn't the entire idea of school to prepare children for the things they may have to do later in life?Quote:
Originally Posted by athenahollow
This sounds catchy, but it doesn't strike me as very sound reasoning. Besides, I don't even necessarily agree that they should be disallowed from strip clubs, should they feel like visiting those for some reason, so that premise is sort of questionable too.
Theyre not being 'pushed into' or 'being taught' anything. The article is about them attenting a demonstration (not classes), and moreover, it was optional.Quote:
Originally Posted by athenahollow
Anyone that was attending it was there out of freely volunteered interest - so when you go on about how that shouldn't be allowed to happen, you're not telling teachers what they can't teach, you're telling the students what they can't learn. You're creating an arbitrary category for a group of people and telling them what they cannot do or learn, based on your notion of what their lives are supposed to look like. Now I may seem unusually harsh here, but that is about as 'wrong' as it gets in my book.
Using your body is the only way to get in shape, which is what that demonstration was about. I very much doubt that making money would've been mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet-Tongue
Besides, far more suggestive that a pole dancing demonstration, students get classes to help them pick their would-be future professions all the time, no? Life as an adult in a crappy world that'll exploit you however it can will have unglamorous/dangerous/morally broken aspects to it; this isn't unique or even exceptional to the sex industry, just more noticeable because sex gets people to look, frowns ready for rationalization. If schools get to point their students at dangerous and morally questionable trades such as law enforcement or the military, I don't see why a career as a stripper should be unmentionable.
Culture will change when you change what you do with it. What little progress we've made on the subject here over elsewhere has been made because it's treated a little less as something shadowy and unspeakable. If sex workers get exploited disproportionally that's probably in part thanks to the fact that many view the trade as something categorically 'darker' than other professions, and entered into it thinking they weren't in a position to have positive expectations and make demands; this is generally the case in worker-unfriendly industries and social demographics. Keeping the subject under the table right in those last few years before they may make that choice seems like a horrible waste of an opportunity to change that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet-Tongue
I apparently am on the unpopular other side. I understand the schools complaint that it was disrupting classes, but it is not teaching kids to be strippers.
The routine she did is no more sexuality than a high school gymnastics or cheer routine. I did not see any overtly sexual moves in routine. Personally I would consider this less exploitative than cheer since it is not competitive. Then again I do no know if the UK has a similar cheerleader culture to the US.
Personally, it could be reasonably argued the the company that put on the routine has burlesque lessons and hen parties on their website, and likely was directing people to their website. Although even then their site is pretty non sexual.
I would also point out that, while the headline says the demonstration was for classes of 14 year olds, the article states the school ages range from 14 to 19. The demonstration was in the public area of the school not in a class of 14YOs. So they were not exactly targeting 14 year olds. Around 2/3s of the school is the age of consent in the UK IIRC.
I think the debate has come down to "What if they were teaching this" more than "look at what they did" conversation. And THAT'S where the real line gets delineated.
And you are right, that routine had nothing truly sexual in it, but the stigma that goes along w/ an upright pole is enough to cause a horny teen to jump straight from a gymnastics routine to a stripper routine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cafe_Post_Mortem
They could avoid the whole thing if they do what a lot have mentioned and just stick to standard gymnastics.
Possibly, but even the hypothetical scenario was about optional extracurriculars; the distinction between a class and a demonstration has relatively little to do with the rest of my perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena
Stigmatas are perception, and by definition optional. So far, it's mostly the moral perspective that seems unwilling to look past it.Quote:
Originally Posted by athenahollow
Besides, again, if the teen's horny - who're we to tell her (or him) not to look for some action in whatever way they please?
Well, until they change the laws so that teens can go into strip clubs, I still say it's not appropriate for them to be learning the trade at school. Be-it extracurricular or not. And again, you aren't reading what I am saying. I never said that we are going to discourage them from doing what they want, but there is a giant difference between teaching your kids the safe way to do things and encouraging obviously graphic situations that WILL lead to undo pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raza
You don't seem to see that there is a middle ground between "no, you can't have sex" and "Hey, how about I stick you in a room with 20 horny guys while you dance seductively for them"
I've read what you said, but you've never really argued how all those capitalised promises of doom are as inevitable as you make them out to be. Also, you've passed on my point that it's not 'us' 'teaching' them, it's them seeking to learn something that they apparently find interesting. You keep treating them as non-persons, with no say or hand in what'll end up happening to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by athenahollow
And that middle ground is theirs to walk as they see fit, not ours to place them on somewhere of our choosing. Not even right in the middle, under the pretentense of virtue by moderation.Quote:
Originally Posted by athenahollow