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I always get really uncomfortable when comics do routines about ya know how women are. Not because I am a feminist, but because that stuff usually really does not apply to me. I think there are cultural issues which impact women more or differently from men, but I think a lot of traits generally associated with being female are just societal impositions. Do you fit the stereotypes for your gender?
Give examples, and I will let you know.
No. I've had more than one discussion with my partner about this and he always ends up telling me that I don't think/act like a "stereotypical woman" (whatever that is). And I guess, from one episode, a stereotypical woman would be one of those women from the Sex and the City show. And, boy, does that show annoy the hell out of me. :)
For me it's not really a gender stereotype, it's how I appear towards others (I look like a fat, shaved wookie) so I get the, you must only listen to norwegian death metal and drink whiskey filtered in anti freeze and **** women................ truth is I think most death metal sucks, I hate whiskey, and, well you can figure the rest out.
Is wearing makeup part of the stereotype for how men are supposed to act?
Stereotype
Function: noun
Etymology: French stéréotype, from stéré- stere- + type
1 : a plate cast from a printing surface
2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment.
I wouldn't think a man wearing makeup would be considered stereotypical for any man.
It seems to me that most people have been stereotyped at one time or another in their lives. I think it goes from person to person, you just can't put these things all under one judgment. I don't feel I have to be limited to one societal role just because I am a woman. If I want to do something I will do it, regardless. People seem to fixate on the stereotyping of ethnicities the most, or aesthetics, in my opinion. The ironic thing is ,some "stereotypes" have and do come pretty close to the truth in some cases though as I stated, you can't consider every person being put under that judgment the same. I think the one stereotype that irritates me the most is when people judge a woman for how she dresses. If they show too much skin, they are considered "loose" or "sleazy", people talk shit and they don't even know the person in question. Or if a man is wearing makeup or dressing not to the norm they are considered "gay" or "flamboyant". People just need to learn to keep their eyes on their own fucking paper.
people say im a "woman-driver"...haha...
No.
I felt like I wasn't satisfied w/ my answer above, & I wasn't exactly sure what attributes were stereotypical for each gender, so I looked it up (these are kinda old school):
Gender Stereotypes associated with Women (from About.com):
Submissive, Emotional, Quiet, Neat/Clean, Clumsy, Artsy, Housewife, Child rearing
Gender Stereotypes associated with Men:
Aggressive, No Emotions, Loud, Messy, Athletic, Math and Science Oriented, CEO, Money Maker
No, I'm most definitely not a stereotypical woman. I fit into more of the male categories than female.
like I was saying on that other thread abt bi- how our culture is still hyper masculine - but I think I'm a good blend of socalled 'masculine' and 'femine'- Pedar
I guess technically I do fit the stereotypes of women to a degree. I enjoy a clean house, I'm overly emotional at times. I'm definitly a spazz :p. Obviously, I'm submissive, though not in the "traditional" sense of the word. But then I have very old fasioned beliefes too. I belive a woman should try to be feminine, not like the "feminists" who to me are just trying to be men. And I am SOOOO over this "metro-sexual" fad. I like my men strong and well, men. None of this hen pecked husband hoop-lah. When did that get to be so bloody popular? It's like it's a badge of honour to be pussy whipped now days. okay, that's enough outta me..
K
yes and no. i like a clean house and i'm a stay at home mom but i forget imporent dates and i get real mean. not always in a bringing up what you did 10 years ago way. more in a kick your a-- sort of way.
That's what she was saying abt the stereotypes...even though I was saying I'm bi- I don't think I'd ever be 'metrosexual'- in terms of being clean -my place is a constant disaster..total clutter- although thanfully I don't have pack rat disease..Quote:
Originally Posted by keiko
Re 'strong men'- cultures like the ancient Spartans and Samurai could kick anyone's ass and really dominated their women but they loved sleeping with men- btw you'd be amazed how many Marines are gay or bi..Pedar
Hrm.
No.
I'm Emotional, Sensitive, Messy, Athletic, Artsy, and Submissive.
But I differentiate between submissive and 'pussy whipped'.
I'm submissive as far as sexuality is concerned, but not as far as everything else. Sure, I'll do things for the woman if it needs to be done, anyway, and I'm not doing anything at the moment. But I have lines that are drawn. I have a sense of will, afterall.
I don't just bow down, like 'pussy whipped' implies, but as a general rule I like to give. And most often submit to a female's desires as far as intimacy goes.
Emotional, Quiet,Clumsy, Artsy, Loud, Messy, Athletic, Math and Science Oriented
im a mixture of everything, :mad: probably why everyone in the world thinks im gay when they first meet me :rolleyes: the long hair doesnt help either i guess
Actually, I could prolly tell you exacatly how many marines are bi or gay. It's up near 38%. That's not what I ment though. I don't mind if a guy exfoliates or moisturises or whatever, But the guy who would rather go to a nail appiontment than a BBQ is a bit odd in my head. It's the guys that are litterally pussy whipped and henpecked. A sexually submissive male is one thing. A guy that does whatever his woman tells him to is a man of low self esteem. Somewhere along the way a cracked whip became a status symbol among guys sitting at the bar watching the game. I don't know where it came from but I really kinda wish it would go back there. Like I said, I'm really old fashioned. I don't expect my beliefes to apeal to anyone else, but I don't mean to offend any one either.Quote:
Originally Posted by pedar
K
I mostly just don't have any interest in typical female-oriented things, such as cooking, cleaning, getting hair/nails done, child-rearing, shopping, romantic comedy movies (blah), being "trendy", or anything discussed in Cosmo. I find it insanely irritating when strangers off the street try to make me have discussions about typical girl-things. To me, it seems to imply they don't think I'm capable of having a real conversation about issues of some importance.
Also, I get sick of the strange looks and stupid comments I get whenever some idiot in a bar asks me what I do for a living..... Yes, I build houses, get over it. I have the pleasure of listening to them tell me how that's "men's work". Might I add that it's usually people who have no idea what they're talking about? People just assume that any decent-looking woman must be weak. It's disgusting.
No way. Being stereotypical is boring. Room and house is clean, but office looks like an explosion in a paper factory - but my filingsystem works. Don't like romantic movies - who the hell lives happily ever after. Bet you not even Snow white or Cinderella...Try everything once.
I think some people I appear that I do. When I'm amongst professional individuals it can be really dangerous to show any slightly serious attraction to the same sex, particularily with men, I find. I got tired a long time ago for involving myself in anything others deemed too feminine. Being as much of a bi-sexual as I am, I really keep the "liking men" part away from parents and co-workers.
So, I pretend to like sports, violent video games, cheap beer, strippers (but not as people), lesbians (but not as only entertainment), porn (which I do, but which kind?), endless gadgets, guns and wrastlin'. But, I prefer literature, flowers, exercise to sports, conversation, writing, yoga. I love that my life's calling is to be a kind, patient, loving and affectionate father. True bravery to me is baring your feelings to others.
I agree. I totally agree with everything you said. The point I'm trying to make is the straight guys who spend 5 hrs in the bathroom and then you find them reading GQ over breakfast. You have to ask yourself at that point (as a woman) "is he interested in me or my brother?" The straight guys who attend the spa once aweek. The ones who won't try to help you open a jar cause they might chip a nail. Did you ever see that one episode of South Park where every one was all "Queer Eyed"? That's the stuff I'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by memorydream
I guess its more poeple who try so hard to be somehthing they're not. The straight men that behave like women. THe Straight ment that don't try to be the kings of their castles and the "Feminists" that try so desperately to be men that you can smell their B.O. from across the bar. I really don't mean to offend any one here, but these things are the burr under my saddle. I understand completely if I'm the only one who holds these views, and I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion on anything, just trying to explain myself. I'm not very good at it.
K
Oh, I saw that episode all right. And I do know quite a few "Metros." One guy I met is always going to get his nails done and wants calf implants, he has two sons who waste hours (and roll of toliet paper) in the bathroom. Even this elderly fellow I knew, he used to steal napkins and refold them because they weren't good enough for him until he did such. He would then stack them in a nice little pile and go off to the bathroom to waste a roll of toliet paper (unless your bleeding of evacuating you bowels after a week of heroin, who does that?) and I would just blow my nose on all his napkins and throw them away just to see him throw a fit: "Where are all my napkins!" Often I would ask these fellows: "So, how's about a date?"
There is nothing wrong with taking time to take care of yourself, but once you have spent two hours on your hair or pants your going to pick for the day, bad hair day or no, it's time to go!
Likewise, please bath on a regular basis, everyone, please, please, please. Those greasy foods? Their old, dried, rotten, greasy smell does come out of you when you sweat. Some of us can't help it, I know. But for greasy,meaty, food lovers, a shower a day does so much. A lot of basics go really far, just caring helps in fact. But, not laying down your life for that scab that's just about to come off.
The main part of this I relate to is sports..no matter how hard I tried I never could get into that..I would try and try- but other than that..hey I love porn, used to like strippers- but too much of too much money for being teased..Quote:
Originally Posted by memorydream
And I like military history- especially History Channel-
so mostly typical guy - except getting turned on by young long haired teen boys..P
Ah, but what can you do, and I totally agree on the stripper thing. :fruit: (I love the little dancing snowman with glasses!)Quote:
Originally Posted by pedar
Hi K- no you're not offending anyone- but now 'pussy whipped' is a whole other thing- absolutely it's low self esteem- oddly when I was in college- I would try to act so macho- at the same time- I had I girlfriend who used me as a toilet bowl emotionally...she was playing me and another guy on the East Coast-- but then again there are plenty of women who are 'cock whipped'- sometimes it's called 'battered woman syndrome'- so it works both ways..men have the physical strength to be physically abusive and women use verbal/psychological abuse..PQuote:
Originally Posted by keiko
'can do abt' what? The teen boys? If you're still in school- then you've got those locker rooms to turn you on..Quote:
Originally Posted by memorydream
Yes, little dancing snowmen are a fuck of a lot cheaper than dropping 20-30 bucks at a strip club to see someone naked..I learned as a young lad eventually it's more satisfying spend the time meeting the real deal- and use porn just only when necessary :-)
P.
I like the college ones better. And yes, I'll come clean in my opinions: I 100% agree with you on the strip club thing. But, I question how cheap dancing snowmen are, I mean Disneyland is NOT cheap. Of course there are window displays.Quote:
Originally Posted by pedar
To make a careful point, with some of the things I've experienced mixed in: I have dropped a lot of money at them and had some interesting conversations. But, in the waking world, with people in it, relationships with real thinking, breathing (even heaving) people is always much less expensive. I should of spent my time with people in restaurants, stores and coffee houses, which was much more productive for me ultimately. I was really unfair to myself at those stages where I did that sort of thing, in my opinion.
Absolutely I agree with you..it's a combo of self esteem and maturity- not to mention here in LA anyway- just walking down the street and seeing women is better than any friggin strip club-
Yes, getting it together with real people is what it's abt..
This may not apply to you at all -but I know now it was my Catholic upbringing where I unconsciously felt sex was dirty - so I did a 'split'- had to get loaded to really allow myself to feel those feelings...
It took me way, way too long to work that through..P
To make a careful point, with some of the things I've experienced mixed in: I have dropped a lot of money at them and had some interesting conversations. But, in the waking world, with people in it, relationships with real thinking, breathing (even heaving) people is always much less expensive. I should of spent my time with people in restaurants, stores and coffee houses, which was much more productive for me ultimately. I was really unfair to myself at those stages where I did that sort of thing, in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
The point of strip clubs, as far as I can tell, is not only an excuse for freshly legal boys or soon to be married men to go an oggle naked titties, but alot of guys ahve trouble striking up conversations with people in coffee houses and the like. So when a pretty barely dressed girl comes up and sits on their lap and starts talking to them (some times for hrs) they get an emotional high off of it. "Not only is this pretty thing talking to me be she came up to me and it was her idea that she talked to me in the first place." I've sat and listened to life stories, women troubles, kid troubles and all. I've been Friend Shrink and Confidant to well over 100 diff people, some of them women. The people that are dangerous are the ones that don't realise that it's the stripper's JOB to talk to them and make them feel special. They get it into their heads that this is a real relationship and try to take it outside the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by memorydream
I myself, both before and after being a dancer, have spent my share of money in the clubs. Some of the girls are just as needy for friendship and conversation. Strip clubs may sseem like tawdry cheap (or expensive) entertainment with no "big finish", but they are worthwhile establisments.
K
I knew my opinion was dangerous. But one of the reasons I was so careful about it is the reason that I had two great friends who were strippers, I never saw them perform, and it was another that I struck up friendly conversation with that made me realize just how much I was fooling myself in my marriage.
I just received an email from an old chum/ex-girlfriend who very much has the same opinion as Keiko does on those matters. She is a bi-sexual who is married to a man, so I can see where she is coming from. Pedar speaking about feeling guilty about it is really true with me, as well. My main point of frustration was going beyond talking to a pretty girl at a strip club, to one at a store or somewhere where I hang out. In my opinion, the last two points make a more complete statement of why we do things, where one may need to end and the other start, as well as realizing it's important to grow, basically.
Hmm- no- a few (granted not many) of my friends actually have dated women they met working in strip clubs- long term relationships as well- I was once hit on a women at such a club in San D. who I also knew from my college gym- again fucked up neurotic boy wouldn't follow up on it..argh!Quote:
Originally Posted by keiko
I think for most women who work there- it's a lot of cash real fast- quite often most of it tips/under the table....can't argue with that and you get to workout at the same time..My friend's gf who worked at Cheetah's in Hllywd though fucking hated it and hated the men - but made so much money she had two world traveling vacations..to each his own - P.
P.
Memorydream- hmm- don't follow this too clearly- so you were/are married? What opinion is your bi friend expressing..? Sorry this thread has gotten convoluted - whatever - best wishes P.Quote:
Originally Posted by memorydream
I've been so busy but I 've been meaning to just say that 'official feminists' I find often are the most 'girly girly' of all..Never will forget watching Camile Paglia trying to debate orthodox feminist Susan Falaudi on the old Donahue show way back when- Falaudi was so intimidated and looked like she was hiding behind Mr. PC Donahue..whatever..Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeliaG
And yes, some traits are 'just societal' impositions- but there are biol. differences.. the truth lies in the middle btw. ultra feminist and the new Dr. Laura 'we are completely different' and 'gay really is bad'
I'm a Paglia-ist maybe-P.
I apologize Pedar we've got a 3+ car jam going on here, don't we? My analogy was too confusing it seems to me. Here let me see if I can clear up what I meant...
Yes, I was married, just to clarify. This is not too brief, but it is more point by point:
When K says: "The point of strip clubs, as far as I can tell, is not only an excuse for freshly legal boys or soon to be married men to go an oggle naked titties,"
I think that's curiosity and we all naturally go through that.
With K going on to say: "but a lot of guys ahve trouble striking up conversations with people in coffee houses and the like. So when a pretty barely dressed girl comes up and sits on their lap and starts talking to them (some times for hrs) they get an emotional high off of it. 'Not only is this pretty thing talking to me be she came up to me and it was her idea that she talked to me in the first place.'
I feel that is where the whole need to get out and experience things comes from, you know...curiosity. Of course, if you are new to a scene like that, there are often things that are learned the hard way. I would imagine a stripper would get run out on a rail if they said: "Oh, by the way, all this attention I am giving you is for your entertainment , but it's my job , so I hope you don't take it personally when I take your money and run of to get some more."
On a personal note, I recall a stripper going off to do her job when I was just sort of looking the other way and I turned around to see her talking to other men. I got jealous, but that's her job, she gets to eat, have a place to live and in many cases help out those she feels responsible for in life. Preference is preference, but it's a exercise in "walking in someone else's shoes." Still,I'm sure Pedar you have your own stories and analogies on that. Of course, they are particular to you and your experience and are going to have their own meaning and lesson to you, and undoubtedly something to teach others.
Hence K's point: The people that are dangerous are the ones that don't realise that it's the stripper's JOB to talk to them and make them feel special. They get it into their heads that this is a real relationship and try to take it outside the club.
Where it seems to get a little muddy, is the human factor: Some of the girls are just as needy for friendship and conversation.
We all come to that at various points in our lives, in strip bars, work, at home, in traffic, etc. I have all sorts of issues in my life that have come up at the oddest time. At strip clubs I've (3 examples here)...
...met up with a girl that looked and acted very much like the ex-wife's best friend (Tami). This was a person who I felt brought a lot of division in the relationship between the ex-wife and I, and a lot of bad habits I got by dealing with her. But, while I did not ask for "a dance" or anything, talking to her was like an analogy to working out things with Tami (ex-wife's best friend).
...met one, who was for me, like finally accepting the human form in all it's sexual wonder and beauty.
...met another who helped me realize really the point of: "dangerous are the ones that don't realise that it's the stripper's JOB to talk to them and make them feel special". Of course, she also liked me and seemed to hint at hanging out too. In that one instance she treated me more like a human being than "my wife" whom was putting me at risk for a great deal in my life, work and health. That person was really the first step in me getting me head on straight, though that may seem like irony to some. Yes, I still have a crush on her too, but it's her character I remember, not her appearence.
After all that, I got out of the clubs, did my best to make a better life for myself and get along better with people in all senses of the word. It also helped me break out of the denial my marriage put me in about curiosities and urges I had in regards to men. I'm lucky for all the wonderful people who've come along to help with that.
If I do go back, I hope it's in much the way and attitude that Keiko explained. The future is still unwritten after all.
On the point you made, Pedar (intentionally or not) about "My friend's gf who worked at Cheetah's in Hllywd though fucking hated it and hated the men - but made so much money she had two world traveling vacations..to each his own", I've been in a job a little like that. It almost killed me and I still deal with how much it has taken from me. It had nothing to do with clubs, strippers and entertainment, but it was a job I hated, that paid.
Where it seems to get a little muddy, is the human factor: Some of the girls are just as needy for friendship and conversation.
people in all senses of the word. It also helped me break out of the denial my marriage put me in about curiosities and urges I had in regards to men. I'm lucky for all the wonderful people who've come along to help with that.
If I do go back, I hope it's in much the way and attitude that Keiko explained. The future is still unwritten after all.
On the point you made, Pedar (intentionally or not) about "My friend's gf who worked at Cheetah's in Hllywd though fucking hated it and hated the men - but made so much money she had two world traveling vacations..to each his own", I've been in a job a little like that. It almost killed me and I still deal with how much it has taken from me. It had nothing to do with clubs, strippers and entertainment, but it was a job I hated, that paid.[/QUOTE]
Hi Dream- you got me just as I'm off for the evening..but yes you explained yourself very well:strippers or customers we are all human beings.....
my only remaining question is the 'curiosity and urges' towards men..is it a bi thing or do you suspect the main event..i?I can only send you my empathy--it can take a long time to get clear on it- although it never bothered me that much (just as you say you have to watch who you say that to)..I finally realized women are my main thing- but being bi is just there and that's that...so I'll call myself Queer--I think you can read the other posts I've made here on that topic..
anyway as I was telling someone just now..I really enjoy these boards - some really thoughtfull nice people here - wishes to all P.
Oops sorry - I tried to selectively quote and Dream's reply bled into mine
Here's what I was saying:
Hi Dream- you got me just as I'm off for the evening..but yes you explained yourself very well:strippers or customers we are all human beings.....
my only remaining question is the 'curiosity and urges' towards men..is it a bi thing or do you suspect the main event..i?I can only send you my empathy--it can take a long time to get clear on it- although it never bothered me that much (just as you say you have to watch who you say that to)..I finally realized women are my main thing- but being bi is just there and that's that...so I'll call myself Queer--I think you can read the other posts I've made here on that topic..
anyway as I was telling someone just now..I really enjoy these boards - some really thoughtfull nice people here - wishes to all P.[/QUOTE]
I appreciate that point, in particular, a lot of people stil get a lot of shit, from even supposed "open-minded" people if they are men and say that. The ex-wife definetly did not like that realization.Quote:
Originally Posted by pedar
I'm very glad I was able to make a bridge for understanding.
-memorydream
I just saw a commercial that perfectly illustrates what I'm trying to get across here.Quote:
Originally Posted by keiko
Guy sits down on the couch and picks up the remote. After furiously mashing buttons for a min, he looks at his little girl and asks why he can't watch this channel. The girl tells him its blocked. Guy asks if it can be unblocked. The girl tells him only mom knows how to un block the channel. Mom comes into the room, guy asks if he can watch this channel. Mom says no and little girl crosses her arms and looks smug. It makes me think of a woman telling her husband to finnish his vegtables at dinner, just doesn't seem right to me some how. I don't understand why a man would move out of his mother's house to take this crap from his wife/girlfriend. This is more than emotionally abusive, it's immasculating.
K
It is sad and so many people decide to live so lovelessy like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by keiko
Quote:
Originally Posted by keiko
"This I agree with completely - it's the pc thing- if they show a woman being stupid or weak it's 'sexist' and the feminists will picket the network- men can be shat on all the time..I think that's what made Howard Stern catch on so big a decade back- he made it okay to be a man again-P."
Exacataly what I was trying to get across. Which is sad becasue, lets face it, alot of the women I know are "weak". They are ruled by their overabundance of emotions. They have a tendancy to call on a guy to help them open particularly stubborn jars, becasue they lack the upper body strength. As far as being "stupid" goes, I don't know about outright "Kelly Bundy" dumb, but quite a few can't tell you that the funny noise that their car is making is the transmission or the fan belt. Not stupid, just unknowledgable. It's right up there with the guys not being particularly aware as to why women have more than 5 bottles of "soap" in the shower. I know alot of "old fasioned" guys that if you hadn't told them that a bar of soap can't really double as shampoo, they would only have the bar in their shower. Not really dumb, but not quite understanding the difference between all these kinds of soap. Soap is soap, right? But portraying this in any way, that the man is the king of his castle, or the woman asking what the funny noise in her car is, is considered sexist. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, its considered sexist. Just like alot of things, despite being true, are considered racist. I hate PC i guess is what i'm tryting to say.
K
ps- forgive the babble, I just woke up...