Moon Landings?

Ok. so I guess most of you have heard the arguments for and against the Apollo moon landing. If not there's information here .

Briefly, since the moon has no atmosphere it has no wind, hence the USA. flag planted there should not have been seen waving. The believers dismiss this saying that the flag only moves when being tampered with by the astronauts.

Then there is the question about why it is that the Russians were the first in every other significant space race, and doesn't it seem less than peculiar that the USA. would want to be the first on the moon to show where all their resources had been spent. The Russian's official stance was that it was impossible to fly to moon with current technology because of the radiation belt outside the earth’s atmosphere. Remember that this was in '69. Imagine how primitive computers must have been 35 years ago, the computer you are using now is significantly more powerful. If we could fly and land on the moon with the technology available to us 35 years ago then why the fuck haven’t we been leaving our atmosphere more often?

Anyway, I'm not trying to prove or disprove the argument. I had a long discussion with a friend about this recently and what we speculated on most was "if the moon landings were faked then what are the implications?". Seriously, if this momentous, historic event which is featured on the cover of so many high school history books is a sham then what are the implications? If a government will lie about something so big then what else are they capable of? Try and get into the headspace...

Damn I wish I was smart enough (or not as drunk) to answer this.

I dont think this has to be proved or disproved for us all to agree the government is a bunch of lieing cocksuckers!!!!-
the arguements against it(the landing) are pretty tough though-

I've heard a ton of arguments about the landings being faked...so I decided to ask some guys about it that worked at JPL

Not only did they rip apart the arguments for the landing being faked but clued me in on some of the science involved with it all and info about the landings I'd never heard about That day pretty much set me straight about it. They did say it was a good argument to bring up since it was the only way new generations would talk abut it.

As far as the implications of it being faked...sadly...I doubt any would care. Space just does not seem to be on the minds of the last few generations. It was not even talked about as more than a small fact in H.S. and it was not till I took an astronamy class in College that it came up in great detail. Real or fake it simply does not matter at this point in time...

Though I do agree with people it'd be impossible for this to be a lie. Mainly because the logistics of lying would simply never be possible due to all involved and general instincts of people and press of then and now. Talking to the JPL guys about that was interesting given many knew those directly involved with the Apollo projects and each pretty much said that keeping such a secret with so many involved...it's just not possible.

They had this great example of watergate they used that convinced me (sorry I can't explain it like they did...i've never felt so STUPID in all my life than when I was talking to these guys) of how difficult it would have been to keep such a lie secret. If the president couldn't do it with all the resources he had available...no way NASA could with the same resources. Their are simply too many leaks and holes for information to get out of compared to other agencies.

Too many see government agencies like they are in the movies...from first hand experience I can honestly say that the "big secrets" are rarely kept. They simply leak out in some form...maybe not to the general public but to entities that could make a big issue about it and often do.

With the Moon Landings though...you're talking about thousands upon thousands of people involved and double that from the outside looking in. The press core ALONE from that era would have found out if things were far from legit...they were simply too deep into it in terms of coverage...same with outside press.

It's just one of those things that makes it hard to buy into mass government conspiracies due to the simple fact the numbers and human nature are so stacked against it.

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Originally Posted by nyar

I dont think this has to be proved or disproved for us all to agree the government is a bunch of lieing cocksuckers!!!!-
the arguements against it(the landing) are pretty tough though-

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Obviously none seem to mind too badly cause they continue to stay in power despite this well known fact.

Thing is...do any of us want honest people in power?

Since we see things like the space shuttle, and we see them launch satellites, I think that it is pretty clear that we do send things into space. We launch probes of comets, we get photos from the outer planets, and we have Mars rovers, etc.... So considering all the things we do in space, it does not seem unreasonable that we could send people to the moon. You could not have a conspiracy that involves every scientist at NASA, and every worker on the space program. I agree that the government would rather the public focus on something else, rather than on the administration. But I do not think they fake things like that. Yes, they will try to get us to focus on Terrorism, rather than the economy, or social issues. And yes, they use the war to keep us focused on something else. But I don't think they totally fake things, in order to keep pressure off them. But they sure do like to distract us whenever they can.

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Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

I've heard a ton of arguments about the landings being faked...so I decided to ask some guys about it that worked at JPL

Not only did they rip apart the arguments for the landing being faked but clued me in on some of the science involved with it all and info about the landings I'd never heard about That day pretty much set me straight about it. They did say it was a good argument to bring up since it was the only way new generations would talk abut it.

As far as the implications of it being faked...sadly...I doubt any would care. Space just does not seem to be on the minds of the last few generations. It was not even talked about as more than a small fact in H.S. and it was not till I took an astronamy class in College that it came up in great detail. Real or fake it simply does not matter at this point in time...

Though I do agree with people it'd be impossible for this to be a lie. Mainly because the logistics of lying would simply never be possible due to all involved and general instincts of people and press of then and now. Talking to the JPL guys about that was interesting given many knew those directly involved with the Apollo projects and each pretty much said that keeping such a secret with so many involved...it's just not possible.

They had this great example of watergate they used that convinced me (sorry I can't explain it like they did...i've never felt so STUPID in all my life than when I was talking to these guys) of how difficult it would have been to keep such a lie secret. If the president couldn't do it with all the resources he had available...no way NASA could with the same resources. Their are simply too many leaks and holes for information to get out of compared to other agencies.

Too many see government agencies like they are in the movies...from first hand experience I can honestly say that the "big secrets" are rarely kept. They simply leak out in some form...maybe not to the general public but to entities that could make a big issue about it and often do.

With the Moon Landings though...you're talking about thousands upon thousands of people involved and double that from the outside looking in. The press core ALONE from that era would have found out if things were far from legit...they were simply too deep into it in terms of coverage...same with outside press.

It's just one of those things that makes it hard to buy into mass government conspiracies due to the simple fact the numbers and human nature are so stacked against it.

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i tend to agree with you, never say never though. My biggest problem with the conspiricy was the logistics; the enormous amount of employees that would have had to have kept quiet.

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Originally Posted by 23*

i tend to agree with you, never say never though. My biggest problem with the conspiricy was the logistics; the enormous amount of employees that would have had to have kept quiet.

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Yeah it's tough keeping a secret at any level...the more people that know the harder it is to keep one. I've always seen it on a personal level...in our own lives look how fast secrets get out when we only tell one person.

still, you got to wonder.....apparently the rate of change in science and technology is phenomenal and more importantly it is accelerating. If we landed men on the moon with our technology 35 years ago then why haven't there been many more manned missions into space since then....shit we should be launching our rockets from the moon at this stage and sending manned missions into deep space.

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Originally Posted by TheDeathKnight

I think that it is pretty clear that we do send things into space. We launch probes of comets, we get photos from the outer planets, and we have Mars rovers, etc.... So considering all the things we do in space, it does not seem unreasonable that we could send people to the moon.

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thirty five years have passed...and we are still sending probes and digital cameras...? come on....its not proportional.....

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Originally Posted by 23*

still, you got to wonder.....apparently the rate of change in science and technology is phenomenal and more importantly it is accelerating. If we landed men on the moon with our technology 35 years ago then why haven't there been many more manned missions into space since then....shit we should be launching our rockets from the moon at this stage and sending manned missions into deep space.

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I talked to the JPL guys about that too (it's a very common question they get) and one of the things they clued me in on was the fact the probes they send are a much better tool for them to use for gathering data. It's not only cheaper but safer than manned missions. The other thing is people and governments really don't seem to WANT to go to the moon anymore. Lets remember that after the first moon landing interest fell sharply.

The problem NASA faces is that people are much more interested in the Hollywood version of space than the real thing. The technology has indeed exploded but so have the costs and dangers. I posted a while back this excellent article James Cameron wrote for wired about the need to explore and he pretty much nailed what needs to be done in order to generate excitement for exploration.

That's what keeps us from the moon and every other planet...the lack of real interest to explore. Look at the pathetic response to Bush saying "We're going to Mars"...even some scientists said it was too hard and what not...yet these are the people that should be pushing for it. It's sad that Bush has been one of the few to even MENTION NASA in a major way to the public.

Untill we get that sense of exploration back...we're going nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

Thing is...do any of us want honest people in power?

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i didn't think NASA had any power. if they did, we'd all be living in cities on the Moon by now.

I reckon the Rammstein video for Amerika sums it up ;)

It's too bad, really. I'm big on social reform, but even Space Exploration, to me, seems a better way to rally the public together than war or social crisis. What did Kennedy do that got it off to such a strong launch, and make it last, as it did, even through the Nixon years a bit? Gosh, even Civil Rights got done during that time.

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Originally Posted by HammerIntoAnvil

I reckon the Rammstein video for Amerika sums it up ;)

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Great video...it's fucking hilarious. Naive as hell, but hilarious. Too bad it was wasted on such a shitty band.

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Originally Posted by Tequila Zaire

Great video...it's fucking hilarious. Naive as hell, but hilarious. Too bad it was wasted on such a shitty band.

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Not as good as their old stuff, but it's still a great club song.

Or it is consider Glasgow's crappy Metal club scene :(

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Originally Posted by HammerIntoAnvil

Not as good as their old stuff, but it's still a great club song.

Or it is consider Glasgow's crappy Metal club scene :(

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Be glad ya got one at all. I've got to drive for 16 hours to find one. Washington State and Oregon really got nothin' that will even admit it's got metal in it!