They Really Did It.

[a_small_death]

Now we are seeing everything go into chaos. No one should be surprised anymore about the shit hitting the fan anymore. And this time it was the damn republicans that shot it down. Welcome to the horror show folks.

[One Eyed Cat]

Now we are seeing everything go into chaos. No one should be surprised anymore about the shit hitting the fan anymore. And this time it was the damn republicans that shot it down. Welcome to the horror show folks.

I'm fine with the stock market taking an enormous dump. The only 2 variables I care about: Strength of the dollar + FDIC Insurance. Beyond that: I'm prepared to defend myself, my family, my friends if it comes to that.

OEC

[OliX]

A historical moment. I feel sorry for the poor folks in US that didn't even seen what their government, "people that was chosen by people", did to them.

If there was no people there would be no government.

[Buster Friendly]

well the Dow is down 800 points, or so I've been told.

Personally I am not in favor of being forced to sleep on the streets because of the greed, and stupidity of others.

People can bitch, and moan about what a super lazy bastard I am because I haven't spent my life accumulating billions of dollars (and I have heard this argument before), but neither did I spend money that wasn't mine, steal from others, cheat people, or generally live above my means.

C'est la merde.

[Morning Glory]

I'm told that the actual percentage that the dow is down, not just the points, is six percent. which really isn't all that bad, and apparently is less severe then a drop that it had in 87.

come on you gloom and doomers, where is the revolution and the fighting in the streets? everything seems pretty normal to me. I'm glad that I don't have a TV, i'm sure that they are foaming at the mouth trying to stir everyone into a panic, which will be the thing that really hurts this situation.

[Mindgames]

The Dow closed -777 (7%), but the other indices faired worse. NASDAQ -10%, NYSEC -8.7%. Currencies won't see much impact yet, as partly Europe was already shot by another three major banks failing, but mostly because the drop in the US stocks triggered equal drops in all the others. That's the result of uncertainty in action - traders aren't scared of buying US shares, they're scared of buying shares, period.

Yes, it's a smaller percentage drop than in Oct 87 (but bigger in points) - but apart from those two days you have to go back to 1933 to see anything on this scale. Of course there's no rioting in Iowa yet - but your chances of getting a loan, a pay rise, or the place down the road hiring new workers just took a dive into the dirt. It's doom and gloom, but for a reason - folks are already teetering on the edge of their finances, so a few dollars less a week, or a few percent more on their loans, and more people will go to the wall than the system can cope with.

On a good note, at least for Amelia, Apple stocks fell 15%.

[One Eyed Cat]

I'm told that the actual percentage that the dow is down, not just the points, is six percent. which really isn't all that bad, and apparently is less severe then a drop that it had in 87.

come on you gloom and doomers, where is the revolution and the fighting in the streets? everything seems pretty normal to me. I'm glad that I don't have a TV, i'm sure that they are foaming at the mouth trying to stir everyone into a panic, which will be the thing that really hurts this situation.

I'm not worried about it. Kind of angry. I'm hoping they don't bail anything out (only exceptions being things like pensions etc that working people thought were safe). I don't mind taking the pain beyond that. I'm surprised Warren Buffett or someone like that doesn't just call a meeting of the elite, recapitalize the banks to the extent necessary, and watch the bodies drop from Wall St. high rises

OEC

[Bikerpunk]

You'll see a bounce, you'll also see the same people who said gimme 700B or the market gets it saying that no, wait, there won't be a Great Depression after all.

[One Eyed Cat]

You'll see a bounce, you'll also see the same people who said gimme 700B or the market gets it saying that no, wait, there won't be a Great Depression after all.

We all know they can recapitalize the banks themselves. This is ridiculous. I'd go as far as allowing capital gain tax free infusions by private firms/actors. They need to deal with their own bad leveraging though.

OEC

[Ajax Knucklebones]

The Iraq war has cost us TRILLIONS of dollars. Where were all you pissed off people when all that bullshit was going down? Sure, you were pissed, but damn that's when everybody should have been piling in the streets and protesting. Yes...Some did...But not like it should have gone down.

The way I look at it, $700 billion to keep people from acting like maniacs and derailing a depression is fine by me. The government has blown soooo much friggin' money for the last 8 years, why is $700 billion(which is basically a line of credit...Meaning chances are not all of it will be spent...Also, all of it is a loan...At a nice interest rate...Not a gimmee gimme for free...It has to be paid back if these banks expect to not be shut down) totally blowing your minds.

The small picture is these big banks get to stay open...

The big picture is we probably wouldn't have to go through a depression.

The thought process of these comments here...I don't know...I just don't get it.

This bill was not about saving these big banker's skins.

Essentially, it's about saving our own.

Well. Alot of you seem like you're all up for a depression just as long as the big companies don't get a loan from the government. I mean, yeah, you can live through a depression, right? You all seem like you're ready. I mean, so many of you have gone days and days without any food...for several years, living for years at a time on the streets where it's worthless to beg for change and food since nobody has any. Standing in soup lines for most of the day to possibly get some soup. Watching family members starve to death...

To me though...If I can avoid that and it only cost the deficit a $700 billion of an already trillions of dollars deficit, I say fuck it. Pass the bill.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

We all know they can recapitalize the banks themselves. This is ridiculous. I'd go as far as allowing capital gain tax free infusions by private firms/actors. They need to deal with their own bad leveraging though.

OEC

***We all know they can recapitalize the banks themselves***

No...They can't.

[Amelia G]

The Iraq war has cost us TRILLIONS of dollars. Where were all you pissed off people when all that bullshit was going down? Sure, you were pissed, but damn that's when everybody should have been piling in the streets and protesting. Yes...Some did...But not like it should have gone down.

The way I look at it, $700 billion to keep people from acting like maniacs and derailing a depression is fine by me. The government has blown soooo much friggin' money for the last 8 years, why is $700 billion(which is basically a line of credit...Meaning chances are not all of it will be spent...Also, all of it is a loan...At a nice interest rate...Not a gimmee gimme for free...It has to be paid back if these banks expect to not be shut down) totally blowing your minds.

The small picture is these big banks get to stay open...

The big picture is we probably wouldn't have to go through a depression.

The thought process of these comments here...I don't know...I just don't get it.

This bill was not about saving these big banker's skins.

Essentially, it's about saving our own.

Well. Alot of you seem like you're all up for a depression just as long as the big companies don't get a loan from the government. I mean, yeah, you can live through a depression, right? You all seem like you're ready. I mean, so many of you have gone days and days without any food...for several years, living for years at a time on the streets where it's worthless to beg for change and food since nobody has any. Standing in soup lines for most of the day to possibly get some soup. Watching family members starve to death...

To me though...If I can avoid that and it only cost the deficit a $700 billion of an already trillions of dollars deficit, I say fuck it. Pass the bill.

So, uhm, what aspect of the bill helps the middle class in any way, shape, or form? How does it help people who try to get a decent job, work hard to keep a decent job, and want some kind of future that does not involve picking up the tab for both the rich and the lazy?

[One Eyed Cat]

***We all know they can recapitalize the banks themselves***

No...They can't.

Given the assets of all the billionaires in this country? They could at least make some of the banks solvent. Drop the capital gains tax for a bit if necessary.

[ForrestBlack]

Well. Alot of you seem like you're all up for a depression just as long as the big companies don't get a loan from the government. I mean, yeah, you can live through a depression, right? You all seem like you're ready. I mean, so many of you have gone days and days without any food...for several years, living for years at a time on the streets where it's worthless to beg for change and food since nobody has any. Standing in soup lines for most of the day to possibly get some soup. Watching family members starve to death...

See, that's just the threat. The gun to our head. I don't buy it. I don't think it will go down like that at all. Yes, it took too long, but I think people are tired of hearing the cries about the wolf at the door while their pockets get emptied. It's hard to oppose a war, it gets into tricky determinations of right and wrong, patriotism and compassion, loyalty and reason, but an unpredicted Federalization of the financial system? That's just clear ideology. It flies in the face of both the left and the right. It's a test of national backbone. It's clear that the pitch is already corrupt, and that's the real objection, to me anyway.

[One Eyed Cat]

The Iraq war has cost us TRILLIONS of dollars. Where were all you pissed off people when all that bullshit was going down? Sure, you were pissed, but damn that's when everybody should have been piling in the streets and protesting. Yes...Some did...But not like it should have gone down.

The way I look at it, $700 billion to keep people from acting like maniacs and derailing a depression is fine by me. The government has blown soooo much friggin' money for the last 8 years, why is $700 billion(which is basically a line of credit...Meaning chances are not all of it will be spent...Also, all of it is a loan...At a nice interest rate...Not a gimmee gimme for free...It has to be paid back if these banks expect to not be shut down) totally blowing your minds.

The small picture is these big banks get to stay open...

The big picture is we probably wouldn't have to go through a depression.

The thought process of these comments here...I don't know...I just don't get it.

This bill was not about saving these big banker's skins.

Essentially, it's about saving our own.

Well. Alot of you seem like you're all up for a depression just as long as the big companies don't get a loan from the government. I mean, yeah, you can live through a depression, right? You all seem like you're ready. I mean, so many of you have gone days and days without any food...for several years, living for years at a time on the streets where it's worthless to beg for change and food since nobody has any. Standing in soup lines for most of the day to possibly get some soup. Watching family members starve to death...

To me though...If I can avoid that and it only cost the deficit a $700 billion of an already trillions of dollars deficit, I say fuck it. Pass the bill.

A lot of us simply don't need it. We have assets. We need a solid dollar and an FDIC guarantee on our accounts. My family owns all their houses free and clear. No worries. I'm ready to roll with it.

OEC

[Amelia G]

A lot of us simply don't need it. We have assets. We need a solid dollar and an FDIC guarantee on our accounts. My family owns all their houses free and clear. No worries. I'm ready to roll with it.

OEC

I live in Los Angeles. I wanted to buy a house. But it was going to run around a minimum of two million dollars to stay in my neighborhood. (Now ya can steal 'em for 1.5 mill, 'cause it's like so dire.) I was like, hmm, I can not afford two million dollars, so I didn't fucking buy a house I couldn't afford and then ask other people to pay for it for me.

Either end of the spectrum, this supposed bailout is BS.

[One Eyed Cat]

I live in Los Angeles. I wanted to buy a house. But it was going to run around a minimum of two million dollars to stay in my neighborhood. (Now ya can steal 'em for 1.5 mill, 'cause it's like so dire.) I was like, hmm, I can not afford two million dollars, so I didn't fucking buy a house I couldn't afford and then ask other people to pay for it for me.

Either end of the spectrum, this supposed bailout is BS.

True. The tone of my post was glib. I'm just pissed off thinking about my family right now. It will not help anyone who isn't in "the game". We do need to address the Community Reinvestment Act. I'm all for equal opportunity at home ownership. There is really no question we just started giving out loans with little to no proof of solvency based on non-financial factors. That is one aspect of it. The leveraging just made it into a house of cards.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

Never thought I'd agree with Dick Armey on anything, do now:

http://www.nowallstreetbailout.com/

[inox]

Also interesting, re: credit default swaps: http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/arti...DeCl.2G0S7YWsA

[Amelia G]

Never thought I'd agree with Dick Armey on anything, do now:

http://www.nowallstreetbailout.com/

People across the board, in radically different situation, with radically different politics, are all in agreement that this whole bailout thing is a bad idea.

[ForrestBlack]

Never thought I'd agree with Dick Armey on anything, do now:

http://www.nowallstreetbailout.com/

It's ok, I never thought I'd agree with Michael Moore either
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/me...dex.php?id=235

[Ajax Knucklebones]

It's ok, I never thought I'd agree with Michael Moore either
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/me...dex.php?id=235

This is from Michael Moore's article....

***(Michael is talking about health insurance here) It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.***

Ummm....I'm the first one to admit that our health insurance is the biggest pile of shit I've ever seen, but that isn't why people are defaulting on their mortgages. Michael Moore doesn't know what he's talking about. People aren't declaring bankruptcy in this whole mortgage mess. They don't have to. The mortgage just forecloses. The mortgage crisis has NOTHING to do with universal health care. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. In fact, usually when people declare bankruptcy, it's to try to KEEP their houses. Not lose them to bankruptcy.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Also interesting, re: credit default swaps: http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/arti...DeCl.2G0S7YWsA

From Ben Stein's article...

***As I said, the pit of loss is bottomless. Warren Buffett, the smartest man of all time in the world of finance, has called financial derivatives - of which Credit Default Swaps are a prime example - "weapons of financial mass destruction." And so they are. As with the hydrogen bomb, no one thought they would ever be used to end the world. But unless someone figures a way out - and maybe the new RTC is and maybe it isn't - we are in real peril. This should never have happened. Now that it did happen, should the taxpayer pay to make the billionaire speculators whole on their bets? What the heck is to be done?***

He states "We are in real peril"....Not just the fat cats on wall street....

Maybe the bill will work...Maybe it won't. But somethings got to be done. And just the fact that the Republicans are the one's that shot it down makes me think that it's bacause there is nothing on the back end for them. Which also makes me think that it's possibly a good bill. I know that's screwy logic, but to me it seems that all these trillions of dollars that have been spent in the last 8 years was so alot of republican politicians and their friends could get rich. This time it's actually being done not to get them rich. If it were, I'm sure the bill probably would have passed today. I know that's cynical of me, but after these past 8 years, I'm very cynical of Republicans....

[Amelia G]

From Ben Stein's article...

***As I said, the pit of loss is bottomless. Warren Buffett, the smartest man of all time in the world of finance, has called financial derivatives - of which Credit Default Swaps are a prime example - "weapons of financial mass destruction." And so they are. As with the hydrogen bomb, no one thought they would ever be used to end the world. But unless someone figures a way out - and maybe the new RTC is and maybe it isn't - we are in real peril. This should never have happened. Now that it did happen, should the taxpayer pay to make the billionaire speculators whole on their bets? What the heck is to be done?***

He states "We are in real peril"....Not just the fat cats on wall street....

Maybe the bill will work...Maybe it won't. But somethings got to be done. And just the fact that the Republicans are the one's that shot it down makes me think that it's bacause there is nothing on the back end for them. Which also makes me think that it's possibly a good bill. I know that's screwy logic, but to me it seems that all these trillions of dollars that have been spent in the last 8 years was so alot of republican politicians and their friends could get rich. This time it's actually being done not to get them rich. If it were, I'm sure the bill probably would have passed today. I know that's cynical of me, but after these past 8 years, I'm very cynical of Republicans....

I think they could wait until a new administration.

Lots of people fall behind on their finances for a few months and later figure out how to make things right. Don't see why that needs to be different for countries.

Doing this at the tail end of an administration just seems really wrong, like there is no one really driving the bus.

[One Eyed Cat]

It's ok, I never thought I'd agree with Michael Moore either
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/me...dex.php?id=235

[ForrestBlack]

but that isn't why people are defaulting on their mortgages.

That, I pretty much agree with, but he smells a con job just the same as the non-kickback getting conservatives smell a con job. The timing of this so called emergency alone brings up serious legitimacy questions.

[Mr Karl]

interesting reading...............reading stuff like this makes me wonder why I've never run into anyone who likes atlas shrugged as much as I do

[Ajax Knucklebones]

That, I pretty much agree with, but he smells a con job just the same as the non-kickback getting conservatives smell a con job. The timing of this so called emergency alone brings up serious legitimacy questions.

What do you mean by timing exactly? I'm not sure what you mean by that? The election?

All I know is that I'm a banker...Not of a big bank, but a small one. The kind that the government doesn't give a shit about. I can tell you that for the past one to two years, it's been getting bad out there. Now with the media making people panic, we need something to qualm their fears. Why do you think the DOW dropped almost 800 points today? Fear....Maybe irrational fear, but that's the fear that as Americans always gets us in trouble. If these fears are not reduced, I am afraid worse things are to come. It's not that I feel psychic or some shit. It's because I see it happening with my customers everyday....and I work for a small bank. Not a big one. I figure the big one's REALLY see all the crazy shit that customers are doing. Do I fear a run on the banks? Sure. And if that happens, history tells me, we will also see a depression.

America is like a baby. They just want they're special blanket. When that blanket is taking away, all Hell breaks loose. That Hell? Yeah, I've been slowly seeing that really happen in the last year and in the last 2 months that Hell is picking up speed. Give the baby his blanket. The baby calms down and normalcy comes back. Then and only then, can things start getting fixed correctly.

Do I want to save these big rich fuckin assholes who run the big banks? Fuck 'em...I mean, they're my competition, BUT, that might be the only way the baby calms down.

[Bikerpunk]

"Moral hazard". Look it up. I think that they should have to endure the same penalties we do. If they can rip the gold teeth out of a dead man's head for having the AUDACITY to have a heart attack he couldn't afford and TRY to declare bankruptcy, surely we can raid a few Swiss bank accounts and "find" that 770B paid out in bonuses over the past few years in executive compensation?

[Amelia G]

What do you mean by timing exactly? I'm not sure what you mean by that? The election?

All I know is that I'm a banker...Not of a big bank, but a small one. The kind that the government doesn't give a shit about. I can tell you that for the past one to two years, it's been getting bad out there. Now with the media making people panic, we need something to qualm their fears. Why do you think the DOW dropped almost 800 points today? Fear....Maybe irrational fear, but that's the fear that as Americans always gets us in trouble. If these fears are not reduced, I am afraid worse things are to come. It's not that I feel psychic or some shit. It's because I see it happening with my customers everyday....and I work for a small bank. Not a big one. I figure the big one's REALLY see all the crazy shit that customers are doing. Do I fear a run on the banks? Sure. And if that happens, history tells me, we will also see a depression.

America is like a baby. They just want they're special blanket. When that blanket is taking away, all Hell breaks loose. That Hell? Yeah, I've been slowly seeing that really happen in the last year and in the last 2 months that Hell is picking up speed. Give the baby his blanket. The baby calms down and normalcy comes back. Then and only then, can things start getting fixed correctly.

Do I want to save these big rich fuckin assholes who run the big banks? Fuck 'em...I mean, they're my competition, BUT, that might be the only way the baby calms down.

I don't think the USA was founded to be a baby in need of a blankie. To the extent that our supposed leaders are treating the citizenry like that, I think it is un-American.

I just wrote to my senators and congressman. Those sites are being pounded like crazy. The servers are having trouble keeping up with all the people telling their government they do not want this.

[One Eyed Cat]

I don't think the USA was founded to be a baby in need of a blankie. To the extent that our supposed leaders are treating the citizenry like that, I think it is un-American.

I just wrote to my senators and congressman. Those sites are being pounded like crazy. The servers are having trouble keeping up with all the people telling their government they do not want this.

Someone could probably start a No-Bailout Party, find a charismatic candidate, and beat Obama and McCain both. They don't all want to be treated like children.

OEC

[Bikerpunk]

I fail to see how it should be ANYONE's problem but the banks that they knowingly overleveraged themselves and spun a bunch of funny money out with no intent on producing any tangible good or service as a result.

The fact that this can be done AT ALL means something needs fixing.

Fast.

[Buster Friendly]

interesting reading...............reading stuff like this makes me wonder why I've never run into anyone who likes atlas shrugged as much as I do

probably because ayn rand sucks monkey balls.

interestingly enough though I DO know of a group that probably loves that commie whore's rotting corpse much more than you do...

...Corporate CEO's!! Interviewed about what their favorite books were a very large percentage of them claimed that rand's books were pivotal in forming their world views.

I shit you not.

You see, you lazy socialist douches are just jealous that you didn't think of a way to rip off the nation's financial markets, and get them to hand over multi-million dollar golden parachutes just to get your incompetent asses out of the company.

Gawds I hate rand.

[One Eyed Cat]

I fail to see how it should be ANYONE's problem but the banks that they knowingly overleveraged themselves and spun a bunch of funny money out with no intent on producing any tangible good or service as a result.

The fact that this can be done AT ALL means something needs fixing.

Fast.

Drop the ability to leverage to 10:1 (rate commercial banks can) as opposed to 30:1 like the pigfuckers did. Reinstate Glass-Steagall.

[Bikerpunk]

But even so: when the bill comes due, they should pay it. With their money.
They were more than happy to bank any profits that came their way.

[One Eyed Cat]

But even so: when the bill comes due, they should pay it. With their money.
They were more than happy to bank any profits that came their way.

Definitely. I'm thinking long term here. "Investment banks" need to go the way of the dinosaur. 10:1 is more than sufficient for any entrepreneurial venture (with said entrepreneur assuming said risk) 30:1 is asking for it.

OEC

[helcyon]

Someone could probably start a No-Bailout Party, find a charismatic candidate, and beat Obama and McCain both.

I would vote for a party like that.

Someone told me that there was a "Don't Know Don't Care" party or something like that in Britain. I've definitely heard of the Apathy Party (Campaign Slogan: Whatever). I wish we had something like that here.

Hmmm... more charismatic than both Obama and McCain... a bit like both of them so their supporters cross over... lets see...


courtesy "Official Alf Appretiation thread" [sic]

[One Eyed Cat]

interesting reading...............reading stuff like this makes me wonder why I've never run into anyone who likes atlas shrugged as much as I do

Atlas? I read it some years ago. I do understand it in a psychological sense. As macroeconomic theory? I do believe you need some basic ground rules that Rand would have ideological opposition to (read her defense of big business for example) in Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal. Economic power becomes political power in all but a few cases. Bill Gates has been a holdout to some extent. He was eventually forced to play the game due to the browser issue. Most eat from the trough of govt. So: At that level, I think Rand is kidding herself.

OEC

[Morning Glory]

oh I hate rand and I think she is a bitch, but I understand where she is coming from. She left Stalinist Russia to come to America during the industrial boom. It's not really much of a surprise that she envisioned a brave new world. I think that she is very naive and she preaches ideas that she doesn't realize how harmful they can be.

Her basic idea is that if people take care of themselves, it will be best for everyone in general. that makes sense in theory, because the best interest for humanity is for everyone to get along and share, but we all know it doesn't work out so much like that. What's good for one person might be to hurt someone else. Or more likely people will do things that they wrongly perceive to be in their best interest, such as banks lending practices that tank the economy, and it hurts them and others in the long run.

So anyway, back on topic. I really agree with what Biker said about the banks. this whole thing really pisses me off. Amelia and others have said expressed it. Everyone has been made to suffer for the faults of a few and it's not right that the innocent should have to share the responsibility.

and even yesterday, the whole thing was caused by fucked up speculation. If all the investors stuck to the course and did business as usual, all would be fine. Instead, because they thought that the economy was going to sinke, they sold off all their stocks and fulfilled their own prophecy of failure.

All these idiots in charge of the financial institutions AND in the government regulations don't know what the fuck they are doing and their mismanaged has totally let down the whole country. It's NOT the time for the parties to keep wagging their tongues and going along with the same shit. that shit is killing us.

[OliX]

Wohooo! It's rejected!