Burning Man 2009

[FROZE]

I am a veteran Burner of 10 years looking to find a suitable group of alternatives to camp with this year. I usually went with my mother as a family tradition, but I'm a big girl now, and want to fashion my own trail. I am interested in finding someone(s) to primp with as I am and all around body decoration designer. I will be designing as much attire for the event as possible and would like to collaborate with a creative photographers, models, designers. . . to document my eleventh year at the event. Anyone going this year?

Yes, there are some rumors out there that Burning Man is a “Big hippie fest”-not completely true: the festival is actually a haven for artists of all backgrounds, who come together to form a community that dares to exercise the rights this country has to offer. It’s actually quite enriching, in a drugged-up, dust-coated, mind-entrancing, spiraling down the rabbit hole naked, and covered in glow-in-the-dark paint, sort of way. Slip into the creative void with a hybrid concoction of DMT from a toad on the Colorado River, a touch of Datura tea, and vapors of a purple-hazed, crystalline rock- spawned from the depths of the psychedelic jello ocean. You get the point!
-Your thoughts?

[ForrestBlack]

If they weren't fascists about media creation, I'd consider it, but I'd hate to be told to remove any photos I took from my LJ or my websites etc. like a lot of my friends have had happen. It really made them feel bad. They were a part of something but then they got threatened legally and such. No fun.

[DJ Bat]

ORLY?

Hmmm... is that listed on their website? The only thing pertinent I could find was their 10 Principles:

http://www.burningman.com/whatisburn...rinciples.html

What's odd about this is "Gifting". WTF is "Gifting" and why does it need it's own pseudo-definition. Is "Gifting" some sort of legal loophole for providing performances without you charging for them to get past performances taxes or is it a wink wink at free love / free drugs? To follow Gifting with "Decommodification" is also strange. I always have to wonder about organizations that use strange hidden agenda speak to clarify their stand-points.

Yea, I've never been - known plenty who have and to be honest, after touring w/Lollapalooza in 93, I really am not too interested. The cost of Burning Man is astronomical. I'm interested to see how much of a decline there will be this year due to our current economic state.

If it was $20 or something, yea sure - I might be more inclined, but all in all perhaps it's all the parties with Mondo 2000, Wired and the likes that I've been to that seem to be god-fathers of things like Burning Man that make such an event, while a playland in it's own right, simply not very interesting to me.

I know, I know... what, stick up my ass? old? no... more bored... been there done that attitude mostly combined with experience with Kaos based events are simply too diluted to create any real spark or excitement past the initial virgin experience of going to such an entertainment melee...

Again, I know peeps who go all the time, and if I had the time and (ir)responsibility available to me along with a 5000 Watt sound system and DJ/Lighting/Video rig, I'd most likely go - but only to chill the fuck out and perhaps, give that audio "Gift" they speak of cause given the state of affairs in the world today, I'm not interested in a bucket of fried dick/pussy or drugs either giving or receiving.

[ForrestBlack]

I think I hear our rocking chairs squeaking on the porch now, but yeah, that.

[FROZE]

Yes, it seems you must register your mixed media devices: camera & video recording devices, but as long as you are not trying to gain commercial uses of your projects (without registering) I don't think it makes a difference. I've posted photos I've taken at the event before on Deviant Art, and if you alter an image to a certain extent, it becomes your copyright anyways. . . But yes, it is slightly uptight, especially when Burning Man is supposed to support art and individuality in any and all forms. It just goes to show how extreme the state of the world has become.

I understand your position, DJ Bat, if I hadn't been forced to go as a small child, I would probably be in the same mind-set as you: Anti-fad. I guarantee that if I had never gone to the event by now, I would not want to go and be automatically labeled a “virgin” But, since I have grown up participating in the event, it’s a lot different for me than 90 percent of the people that attend. It is a “sacred family tradition” that has expanded my mind, artistically, each year. Aside from the bunk business influences that have recently began to shadow over the festival, Burning man can be very enriching if you are able to accept that everything changes, and something that used to be a retribution-based small community of free-thinkers is now a huge, money-making operation: the soul has been expunged.

I agree that more and more diluted personalities flock to this event to try and “give justice to themselves” a lot of them are nothing special, but some of them are- and those are the people I’m interested in meeting. Hopefully this year, because of the economic state, some of the negative flops will be weeded out.

But you have to admit: for someone, like me, who lives in Colorado (in a hole) and isn’t exposed to the daily city life, it is much more exciting to go to something like this to network with folks from all around the country who are at least trying to grasp onto an alternative culture of some sort. I need a culture shock once-in-a-while!
There are always stipulations, nobody’s reality is perfect.

[ForrestBlack]

It todays day and age, defining commercial use is very difficult. If say I posted them here, that could well be seen as commercial. So, if you are a total pedestrian, it's fine, but if you have any sort of creative name or following, you run the risk of having a problem with the very people you were trying to celebrate. I've seen it happen and it really depressed the people involved.

It supports art and individuality for the bottom end, but if you have made something of yourself, it may not be so freedom oriented.

[DJ Bat]

I totally understand on why it would be fun to go. Seriously, if I had the time, money and equipment, I would do it - But when I did have two of the three in the past, the motivation was outweighed by something else and my past history just made it get pushed to the back burner.

Naturally if you've been going for 10 years or so, yea, it would be more like a 2nd vacation home considering you've made friends there, etc... I mean if I choose a slightly different path in the past, I would of probably been there with Thunderdome from day one - Just sounds too much fun.

As far as copyright/registering media devices/etc... Seems for the entry price, you should of bought your rights with that plus aren't they GIFTING their event? Ahh doublespeak...

[FROZE]

If you are an established artist, you should know better than to try and cut corners because, yes, it can be discouraging! Learning from mistakes it key to artistic development. I am not established, nor am I part of “the bottom end”, but I would like to think that attempting to be creative in my own way is enough- looks like someone just shat on my grave. I don’t think it’s a matter of freedom, I think it’s a matter of perspective, reality and intelligence. It is what you make of it.

[FROZE]

When something becomes popular is when it starts to decay-in my opinion, because that is when the actual scum start to parade for it. All the sheep follow. Then the sheep start making the rules. . . It’s grim approach, but I just wanted to find some alternatives that might be going and share artistic intent. . .

[ForrestBlack]

As far as copyright/registering media devices/etc... Seems for the entry price, you should of bought your rights with that plus aren't they GIFTING their event? Ahh doublespeak...

Actually, their terms, as I understand them, are that they have complete copyright and ownership of anything you create within their world, media wise. That's just not something I can roll with.

[Amelia G]

Okay, first of all $300 to get into an event you have to bring your own entertainment to? I can get people to wear crazy half-naked outfits and do crafting in my living room where there is central air conditioning. Why would I pay someone else $300 so I could do the same thing in a crowded, filthy, sweaty place where my cell phone does not work so I probably can't even find my friends?

If people are supposed to gift their art and food and shelter to others, why does Burning Man charge at all, much less charge so much?

Burning Man is just one more greedy organization like LiveJournal or DeviantArt where they are extremely commercial, but they want to prevent creative people from doing anything with their own work, be it political or commercial. You know LiveJournal and DeviantArt and ******* etc. all run ad banners over what is posted on there? So, if Burning Man is cool with that, but they are not cool with a small independent site like Halcyon's running pics taken there, then they are just favoring big business over indie artists.

I think the way Burning Man treats artists leads to less art in America in general. Burning Man provides an outlet for creative people, but they encourage painters and sculptors and such to destroy their work once it is complete and they balls-out claim ownership and control of work by photographers and writers and filmmakers. Press people are expected to pay to get in to Burning Man and then give Burning Man the right to tell them where and what they can and can't say or depict of the event afterward and anyone who might be press is expected, despite not being on any sort of comp list, to "register" with the event. Fascist much. If Burning Man wants to use rhetoric about the freedoms America is supposed to have, they might want to revisit that whole free speech and freedom of the press thing.

Lastly, Burning Man apparently feels compelled to spam the Blue Blood forums because I find it suspect that a supposedly uninvolved person has "OMG Go to Burning Man" as their first post. Is there any other explanation, besides this being commercial outreach?

[Amelia G]

If you are an established artist, you should know better than to try and cut corners because, yes, it can be discouraging! Learning from mistakes it key to artistic development. I am not established, nor am I part of “the bottom end”, but I would like to think that attempting to be creative in my own way is enough- looks like someone just shat on my grave. I don’t think it’s a matter of freedom, I think it’s a matter of perspective, reality and intelligence. It is what you make of it.

Most artists have some sort of following long before they see profit dollar number one.

What do you mean about established artists not trying to cut corners? Who said anything about cutting a corner? What corner? How are you defining established?

[SyntheticShock]

Wow, I never noticed that all photos, when taken at Burning Man become copyright of them. Thats very off-putting.

[DJ Bat]

Half of being an artist, established or not, is all about cutting corners... I'm not talking illegally using software or stealing art supplies - that's a personal choice that has nothing to do with being an artist - I'm talking about thinking outside the norm - not following a projected / known path.

Quick examples are those who take years of music theory and schooling end up sounding like every other artist who's taken the same class and their original works COULD get lost in the mainstream. Now I say COULD as it usually does - sometimes an artist can borrow ideas, morph them, or if they are rudimentary, apply them when needed, but alot of what can be consider new and innovative comes from cutting said corners.

The whole element of places like Burning Man or DA or other sites or places that perhaps at once supported the notion of a collective of artists for artists becoming 'sell-outs' or succumbing to some form of authoritative control/corporate greed is at times a fine line... It's like the band that for years eats fucking cat food to survive and consequently live a lifestyle that affords them the ability to fuck off and just write music 24/7. One day they get signed - they get $$$ and themselves are finally ecstatic to be able to buy a new synth/sampler/software piece that perhaps would be considered "commercial" and eventually someone will say "Oh, listen to them - they have that latest synth and now sound like everyone else", etc...

Well it sort of happens with any entity even on a larger level - Provide a digital space for artists to whore themselves out on and what happens when you get too many artists to support? You need to 10x the equipment and costs - you then may need to look for help - Charge them? that sucks - Get sponsorship? Well, you've opened that door...

This happened with CyberDen - Went from an innocuous BBS that cost $5 a month to run with 25 users to a larger multi-line system ($100 a month) to eventually a multi-line, internet based system ($800+ a month) and when I tried to support that by asking for donations/subscriptions, it started to fail. I had a choice to make; Sell out to a larger corp or shut it down. I shut it down. Not that I didn't try to get someone to umbrella me, just nothing would work without giving up too much control - so ya.... fine line...

[Bikerpunk]

I understand what the attraction of Burning Man is is that you go, and there's a whole ton of alternative chicks who want to suck your cock, or at least that's how it was explained by my enthusiastic room-mate.

Now, considering I couldn't get laid in a brothel with $500 tied around my cock, for me it would be paying $300 for a ticket to stand in the middle of a sandstorm, with no running water, air conditioning, surrounded by bitey and sting-y things.

[DJ Bat]

I dunno Bikerpunk... I mean, ya got pussy on yer head - that's a major attraction I think there.

[Bikerpunk]

As I've had to explain twice, that isn't a pic of me.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

This is for FROZE

[DJ Bat]

This is by far the best PSA for Burning Man (issues) I've ever seen in my life.

[VoldtaEngler]

I remember back in erm.. 2006 I believe it was.. one of my customers was an organizer for BM. She traded me two BM tickets for a couple sets of hair. Needless to say we couldn't make it that year after all and so we asked her if we could sell the tickets instead, which she said "yea of course, it's your tickets".

So we auctioned them and some other BM person was trying to get us to take down our auction at the time because we "were not allowed to sell tickets to BM unless we were BM" basically.

We sold them anyway, but a ton of people were pissed because we were selling off what was rightfully ours. I don't get it. It's not like the tickets we fake, and the organizer who gave them to us said we could... so yea..we decided we probably are never going to go since they would probably want to copyright our eyeballs after entering.

[DJ Bat]

Why is this sounding more and more like BM is gonna turn out like a bad alien horror movie...

[Amelia G]

Golly gee, call the Burning Man spammer a spammer and they don't come back. I bet that means they not guilty.

[FROZE]

First off, let me make it clear: I didn’t mean for this post to show up as a “Promotional event” As an artist, I am trying to get out there. I made this account thinking that I might have found some similar alternatives that happened to be going. “OMG go to Burning Man” is not proper, and is actually very presumptuous, and offensive! I do not represent Burning Man, nor am I trying to get people to go. I am trying to network in the wrong place. Forget it. You must enjoy bullying those with the slightest difference of interest. Not everyone on this forums has exactly the same interests, and attacking someone for being proactive as an artist is not very responsible and shows a major character flaw.

As an artist ,yes, you must cut certain corners in order to make profit, but that doesn’t mean that you must do something illegal in the process. If you want to gain respect, it would be behoove you to find out any and all conflicting interest (permits, fees, contracts) before you undergo an entire process that may end up a waste because you decided to overlook some vital ( not always justified) law. If you are aware of the potential copyright infringements related with photos/videos at Burning Man, it would not be very wise to not register your equipment (which is free and takes little initiative) If you are have truly established yourself (made a name for yourself, sold your art. . . ) then it wouldn’t make sense to cut the corner of not registering your equipment. There are circumstances in which an artist must do all their homework before embarking on a creative quest.

YES, being an artist is about cutting artistic corners, but when those corners involve lawsuits, breaking laws, endangering your reputation, don’t you think it would be wise to investigate all avenues before committing oneself to a project? Anyways, if you spend money for a ticket, register you equipment, you may set yourself up for a creative endeavor that would outdo all others(potentially). Depending on your attitude, mode of intent, resources, and any other factors, you may drive away from the event totally enlightened with superb material and a new view on your artistic life. But if you don’t want to go simply because of copyrights, it’s a little small-minded. There are too many possibilities to simply discard because “You heard your friend had to take his art down because he didn‘t register his camera” Yes, it sucks, but that’s the way of this world, hopefully they learned that there are stipulations associated with most everything.

Being an artist is about overcoming boundaries, and sometimes -I hate to say it- following rules. Burning man is different for everyone, and it’s not very fucking proper to make snap judgments based on rumors, although people do and that’s a major fucking flaw, especially when the whole idea of this event is to bring artists together into a welcoming, non-critiquing manner. Yes part of living is being criticized and dishing it out, but for one week the occupants of the community of Burning Man dare to give respect to one-another, celebrate art of all kinds (even if it does suck), nurture the creative soul, give people ideas and new enlightenment to push forward with goals and yes alter your consciousness with substances.

If you have the money, why would it hurt? If you don’t have the money and don’t want to go, then go find something else to do with your time! Burning Man does offer scholarship and discounted tickets (which I have applied) My ticket will be $110, and I believe it is well worth it for me. If your serious about creating a tremendous art piece for the event, you just have to have the knowledge of how to write up a grant proposal. There are many ways to make an experience at Burning Man a good one, if you care to go. There are also ways to make it the most non-productive experience too. It can be positive, or you can make it negative.

Which is more constructive: going to church every Sunday parading for a christ that tells you to think alike, and follow fairy tales as if they were true, practice polygamy, justify crimes and “sins” with communion and whatever the hell they do at church or parading for art, creativity, freedom of choice, having fun. . . ? Maybe turning your mal-content onto something that actually deserves it might make you realize that there are bigger problems in this world than simply enjoying yourself at Burning Man!

Everything is commercial (burning man or not), people must make money to survive, and that means posting add banners and whatnot. Burning Man has become a lucrative business, and like all money-making operations, there are going to be kinks and Yes, it would be nice to be independent of commercial fascism, but who can escape? I don’t make the rules, but I am expected to follow them.

Once something gets too popular, mounds of litigation follow as with everything. Burning Man first started out with less than 500 people, now it’s expected at 60,000! When I was younger in the early nineties Burning Man was much different. People were allowed to shoot their guns, there was minimal law enforcement, tickets were free, no
Copyrights. . . Once too many people get turned on to something (fad) more rules and regulations arise to “protect” and “maintain”. Everything changes, and I find it quite pointless to argue with persons who have not even had the opportunity to experience the event at all. Word of mouth is vicious, and we all have our own opinions, but I think it’s wise to not base your opinion on third party experiences. Go experience it for yourself, and then if you absolutely hate it, let me know.

[FROZE]

Golly gee, call the Burning Man spammer a spammer and they don't come back. I bet that means they not guilty.

You know nothing about me, why would you write someting so immature?

[FROZE]

I'm not a spammer and (actually) I hate spam!

[Amelia G]

First off, let me make it clear: I didn’t mean for this post to show up as a “Promotional event” As an artist, I am trying to get out there. I made this account thinking that I might have found some similar alternatives that happened to be going. “OMG go to Burning Man” is not proper, and is actually very presumptuous, and offensive! I do not represent Burning Man, nor am I trying to get people to go. I am trying to network in the wrong place. Forget it. You must enjoy bullying those with the slightest difference of interest. Not everyone on this forums has exactly the same interests, and attacking someone for being proactive as an artist is not very responsible and shows a major character flaw.

The forums here include a very diverse community of individuals. Some do go to Burning Man and some do not. One thing they all have in common, if they last long, is that they can support what they say, and not just make tonal everybody-thinks-x-and-so arguments to back up statements. Asking you to be able to explain why you stand for something is not bullying. Why would you even think for a second that that is bullying, unless you actually work for Burning Man?

When someone's first post is in promotion of a specific thing, before they have even made an introduction thread, the obvious assumption is that they are a spammer. If you can debate the topic, folks are less likely to think you are a drive-by spammer.

As an artist ,yes, you must cut certain corners in order to make profit, but that doesn’t mean that you must do something illegal in the process. If you want to gain respect, it would be behoove you to find out any and all conflicting interest (permits, fees, contracts) before you undergo an entire process that may end up a waste because you decided to overlook some vital ( not always justified) law. If you are aware of the potential copyright infringements related with photos/videos at Burning Man, it would not be very wise to not register your equipment (which is free and takes little initiative) If you are have truly established yourself (made a name for yourself, sold your art. . . ) then it wouldn’t make sense to cut the corner of not registering your equipment. There are circumstances in which an artist must do all their homework before embarking on a creative quest.

I said absolutely nothing about making a profit. My complaint is that Burning Man either claims ownership of artist's art or tells artists to destroy their own art. Like destroying your own work would be some kind of liberation. Basically, Burning Man tells creative people to destroy everything they create, unless they give Burning Man ownership of it. How is that good for artists?

I ask you again what do you mean about established artists not trying to cut corners? Who said anything about cutting a corner? What corner? How are you defining established?

YES, being an artist is about cutting artistic corners, but when those corners involve lawsuits, breaking laws, endangering your reputation, don’t you think it would be wise to investigate all avenues before committing oneself to a project? Anyways, if you spend money for a ticket, register you equipment, you may set yourself up for a creative endeavor that would outdo all others(potentially). Depending on your attitude, mode of intent, resources, and any other factors, you may drive away from the event totally enlightened with superb material and a new view on your artistic life. But if you don’t want to go simply because of copyrights, it’s a little small-minded. There are too many possibilities to simply discard because “You heard your friend had to take his art down because he didn‘t register his camera” Yes, it sucks, but that’s the way of this world, hopefully they learned that there are stipulations associated with most everything.

Being an artist is about overcoming boundaries, and sometimes -I hate to say it- following rules. Burning man is different for everyone, and it’s not very fucking proper to make snap judgments based on rumors, although people do and that’s a major fucking flaw, especially when the whole idea of this event is to bring artists together into a welcoming, non-critiquing manner. Yes part of living is being criticized and dishing it out, but for one week the occupants of the community of Burning Man dare to give respect to one-another, celebrate art of all kinds (even if it does suck), nurture the creative soul, give people ideas and new enlightenment to push forward with goals and yes alter your consciousness with substances.

Who here said anything about forming a judgment based on a rumor? If you are referring to the whole artists being forced to take down their own photos thing, (1) I would ask you to read the Burning Man site where it clearly states that they intend to make an unconscionable rights grab for every single piece of art created there and (2) I think a lot of people here know for a stone cold fact that Halcyon, who was a huge evangelist for Burning Man, was forced to take his Burning Man pictures down.

If you have the money, why would it hurt? If you don’t have the money and don’t want to go, then go find something else to do with your time! Burning Man does offer scholarship and discounted tickets (which I have applied) My ticket will be $110, and I believe it is well worth it for me. If your serious about creating a tremendous art piece for the event, you just have to have the knowledge of how to write up a grant proposal. There are many ways to make an experience at Burning Man a good one, if you care to go. There are also ways to make it the most non-productive experience too. It can be positive, or you can make it negative.

Really? Where would you suggest a regular person, who is not in-the-know, find grants for creating fabulous sculptures and mixed media pieces etc. for Burning Man?

Which is more constructive: going to church every Sunday parading for a christ that tells you to think alike, and follow fairy tales as if they were true, practice polygamy, justify crimes and “sins” with communion and whatever the hell they do at church or parading for art, creativity, freedom of choice, having fun. . . ? Maybe turning your mal-content onto something that actually deserves it might make you realize that there are bigger problems in this world than simply enjoying yourself at Burning Man!

What churches currently encourage polygamy?

Do you seriously think that Burning Man has no manifesto and all organized religion is bad?

I do not think being dirty and sweaty and being unable to find my friends sounds fun. I do not think it would encourage my creativity to give some corporation all rights to my work, including the right to tell me I can't show it to people. I do not think telling artists to destroy their art encourages year-round art and creativity. Where is the freedom of choice in letting some corporation tell me what to do with my own work? And where is the freedom in paying $300 to said corporation so they can boss me around?

Everything is commercial (burning man or not), people must make money to survive, and that means posting add banners and whatnot. Burning Man has become a lucrative business, and like all money-making operations, there are going to be kinks and Yes, it would be nice to be independent of commercial fascism, but who can escape? I don’t make the rules, but I am expected to follow them.

If you believe in a gift economy, then you should give what you provide away for free. Most large companies, my own included, engage in company giving in the form of benefits to their community for which they do not charge. If Burning Man says that we should all give to others, then why do they not engage in giving themselves? It sounds like their idea of giving involves other people giving to them i.e. artists gifting them rights to the artists' work, participants gifting them $300 in return for an event which does not even have shelter, etc. How do you possibly not see this as the hypocrisy it is?

Once something gets too popular, mounds of litigation follow as with everything. Burning Man first started out with less than 500 people, now it’s expected at 60,000! When I was younger in the early nineties Burning Man was much different. People were allowed to shoot their guns, there was minimal law enforcement, tickets were free, no
Copyrights. . . Once too many people get turned on to something (fad) more rules and regulations arise to “protect” and “maintain”. Everything changes, and I find it quite pointless to argue with persons who have not even had the opportunity to experience the event at all. Word of mouth is vicious, and we all have our own opinions, but I think it’s wise to not base your opinion on third party experiences. Go experience it for yourself, and then if you absolutely hate it, let me know.

What litigation are you talking about? Who is Burning Man suing and who is suing Burning Man?

[malcolm]

easiest way to sum up burning man? look at the initials. go figure.

things like burning man, lillith faire and woodstock were started out with a cool concept but now they've gone commercial-anyone remember the apocolyptic ending to woodstock 3 ?

even pride festivals are getting that way nowadays. tis sad......

[DJ Bat]

Well down the street from me (sort of) is Coachella. That seems like it could be cool yet once again, the high price tag which really isn't that bad considering the 40+ bands each day. Unfortunately this year the line-ups are so wildly varied that compared to previous years, it seems a bit 'stretched'... I mean, it's missing a big name for me - Sure Paul McCartney is a huge name... but I'd rather see the return of Kraftwerk or Pink Floyd...

Perhaps if BM had 40+ bands a day it would be a bit more appealing as all their entertainment is "GIFTED" entertainment - AHHHH - I think I understand now - I'm beginning to suspect the whole "GIFTED" aspect really is there legally for them to not pay anyone anything for their 'Gifts'.

Now I know it SAYS it's the spirit of giving out little trinkets of physical nature (probably sexual too) for free in the spirit of "Giving". Is there a charge against you if you charge for such 'Gifts'? Do you get reported and kicked off the Playa or worse, Lord of the Flied? It just seems like double speak for supporting something 'cool' while leaving an avenue of not paying anyone for bringing the entertainment to Burning Man...

Now chime right in if you know about this but I assume there are clubs running there w/DJ's and the likes... no one charges for these clubs to get in right? No one would dare or no one is allowed?

I suspect that extends to why no big bands will play there (who would want to be paid) as that would be an oxymoron to the whole 'attitude' of 'free <term>' at BM.

If that's true, then there's a big problem in rights. You pay them to bring your craft/art/fare/entertainment there and you're not paid and you can't charge people for it right?

If that's true, then you should be able to own your own stuff, take pics, do whatever with it that you want.

On a deeper level, when you buy a ticket or show up, do they make you sign anything?

I know... I should just pose these questions towards my friend who goes all the time

[Amelia G]

On a deeper level, when you buy a ticket or show up, do they make you sign anything?

Much of their terms, I believe you agree to the way one agrees to the TOS in a Microsoft install disk.

If you want to have a significant installation or a good quality camera etc., they like you to "register" everything and have many forms conveniently put together for this purpose.

[Lady Alias]

Why is this in promotional announcements?

[FROZE]

The forums here include a very diverse community of individuals. Some do go to Burning Man and some do not. One thing they all have in common, if they last long, is that they can support what they say, and not just make tonal everybody-thinks-x-and-so arguments to back up statements. Asking you to be able to explain why you stand for something is not bullying. Why would you even think for a second that that is bullying, unless you actually work for Burning Man?

When someone's first post is in promotion of a specific thing, before they have even made an introduction thread, the obvious assumption is that they are a spammer. If you can debate the topic, folks are less likely to think you are a drive-by spammer.

Again, I do not work for Burning Man. Going to the event was forced upon me as a child (I didn‘t have a choice). And now that I do make my own decisions, I figure I’ll attend and participate until it founders (if it does) to get the most I can out of it. You have to admit, it’s not very inviting when the first couple posts are not positively directed towards the ideas I was trying to convey with the original post (networking with people who attend Burning Man) I was trying to do something positive that has been viewed as negative. I guess that’s ok to do since you’re trying to weed out inadequate individuals. But maybe accusing me of being a spammer right off the bat wasn’t the most welcoming way to go about it.
I’ve only been on this site for three days, and have not learned the functions of the entire site up and down. Again, I’m not a spammer!

I said absolutely nothing about making a profit. My complaint is that Burning Man either claims ownership of artist's art or tells artists to destroy their own art. Like destroying your own work would be some kind of liberation. Basically, Burning Man tells creative people to destroy everything they create, unless they give Burning Man ownership of it. How is that good for artists?

I ask you again what do you mean about established artists not trying to cut corners? Who said anything about cutting a corner? What corner? How are you defining established?

I mentioned profit in my explanation. I agree that it may sounds like thieving, yet, there are many, many artists that still decide to go and destroy their creations. It’s untimately the artists decision, and yes, Burning Man may encourage retribution in the form a cycle that starts with creation and ends with destruction, but nothing lasts forever, and it is liberating for the artists that decide to participate in this form of artistic release. Generally, the artists that participate know what going to the event means, and they go because the ideas appeal to them, but if an artist does not want to surrender their art, then they probably won’t attend/contribute if they are not welcoming of these key concepts that make Burning Man what it is.
Burning Man also donates to local charities to ensure preservation of the area in which it occupies for the event, so artists that do go can feel that they are possibly giving back to charity.

Who here said anything about forming a judgment based on a rumor? If you are referring to the whole artists being forced to take down their own photos thing, (1) I would ask you to read the Burning Man site where it clearly states that they intend to make an unconscionable rights grab for every single piece of art created there and (2) I think a lot of people here know for a stone cold fact that Halcyon, who was a huge evangelist for Burning Man, was forced to take his Burning Man pictures down.

That’s truly unfortunate, but there are always cronies that must (to give themselves purpose, and to simply enforce new rules, do their job) do negative things to ultimately try to “maintain”. There’s always a scapegoat (someone who gets nailed first to show everyone else: don‘t do this, here are the consequences) As much as I hate to hear these things, it happens.

Really? Where would you suggest a regular person, who is not in-the-know, find grants for creating fabulous sculptures and mixed media pieces etc. for Burning Man?

You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 15 posts or more. There is a grant page on the Burning Man Website.

What churches currently encourage polygamy?

Do you seriously think that Burning Man has no manifesto and all organized religion is bad?

Mormon, some distorted hybrid Catholic.
? No, I never said that. I was just trying to make a comparison in which I believed the members of this community could relate to. I think any organized religion that sells hypocrisy in book form is harmful. I think Atheists are better Christians than real Christians (meaning that atheists are more true to themselves and their personal convictions that the majority of jesus worshippers.) I think separation of church and state needs to be a top priority.

I do not think being dirty and sweaty and being unable to find my friends sounds fun. I do not think it would encourage my creativity to give some corporation all rights to my work, including the right to tell me I can't show it to people. I do not think telling artists to destroy their art encourages year-round art and creativity. Where is the freedom of choice in letting some corporation tell me what to do with my own work? And where is the freedom in paying $300 to said corporation so they can boss me around?

If you believe in a gift economy, then you should give what you provide away for free. Most large companies, my own included, engage in company giving in the form of benefits to their community for which they do not charge. If Burning Man says that we should all give to others, then why do they not engage in giving themselves? It sounds like their idea of giving involves other people giving to them i.e. artists gifting them rights to the artists' work, participants gifting them $300 in return for an event which does not even have shelter, etc. How do you possibly not see this as the hypocrisy it is?

Well being in the desert is actually quite cleansing if you know how to take care of yourself. The clay in the playa contains natural alkaline salts which are beneficial for acne and have other cleansing properties. Yes, everything you bring (including yourself) will end up dust-riddled, but for me it makes me separate myself from all my prized material items, and realize that I don‘t need to be obsessed with material items to survive. Going to this event is like a survival test. Survive the elements! But if you don’t bring the right supplies (and enough of them) there are conditions which may arise (heat stroke, dehydration, sunburn. . .)
Again, it’s the artists decision to participate. In some artists, it does encourage creativity, and that is why they attend. People get inspiration in many ways, including participating in creative and destructive cycles at Burning Man. The corporations are not telling you what to do with your work. It doesn’t sound like anything about Burning Man appeals to you (although you have never been) so just don’t ever go, and allow the artists that want to go express themselves once in a while in this community, as some derive inspiration in many different forms. Yes, for some it can be viewed this way, but if you grew up going to this event, your opinion may be quite different.

What litigation are you talking about? Who is Burning Man suing and who is suing Burning Man?

Potential. i hope there wil be nothing like that.

[FROZE]

uhh how do I change this post from a promotion event to a regular Blue Blood Board? I haven't the slightest idea as to why it showed up as this promotional event. Can I even do this?

[Amelia G]

FROZE, you still have not answered the question about what you mean about established artists not trying to cut corners? Who said anything about cutting a corner? What corner? How are you defining established?

What charities does Burning Man donate to and what portion of the proceeds goes to charity?

I did not say that nothing about Burning Man appeals to me. I enjoy creativity and flamboyant fashion and I agree with some of the Burning Man rhetoric. It just does not appear to me that the organizers of Burning Man actually live by the rhetoric they preach.

Burning Man tries to own all art created and tries to destroy every piece of art they can't own. I also have a serious problem with some corporation trying to own all art everyone creates without even giving anything in return and I have a problem with a corporation telling artists what they may do with their own work.

How is Burning Man different from other organized religions you invoked?

[FROZE]

Perhaps if BM had 40+ bands a day it would be a bit more appealing as all their entertainment is "GIFTED" entertainment - AHHHH - I think I understand now - I'm beginning to suspect the whole "GIFTED" aspect really is there legally for them to not pay anyone anything for their 'Gifts'.

Now I know it SAYS it's the spirit of giving out little trinkets of physical nature (probably sexual too) for free in the spirit of "Giving". Is there a charge against you if you charge for such 'Gifts'? Do you get reported and kicked off the Playa or worse, Lord of the Flied? It just seems like double speak for supporting something 'cool' while leaving an avenue of not paying anyone for bringing the entertainment to Burning Man...

Burning Man has a huge culture of musicians and Dj's that attend and play music non-stop. Some of them may not be very popular yet, but if they have the money, and equipment, it is a great way to get publicity.

GIFTING: If you're at Burning Man, people are always more than happy to share what they've got (unless they haven‘t got anything) Definitions of valuable differ, and some little trinket that you think is shit, may be someone else's whole life (which is funny, but some people get really serious about this)Maybe it's all the drugs their on. . . But the concept of gifting is meant to help others. If someone who barely was able to acquire the funds to get in, let alone cover all the supplies needed to survive, there is always someone willing to offer food, shelter, entertainment. . .

The experience of burning Man is totally different that anything, and once you get the idea, it becomes something that is actually fun, you forget about copyrights and other negative aspects , and your mind-set totally shifts into an aware sense of artistic being. To ensure you enjoy your time, it’s wise to not focus on the negatives or plan on breaking rules, otherwise your experience can be ruined.
Some may never experience this, but it is mind-expanding in many ways.

Now chime right in if you know about this but I assume there are clubs running there w/DJ's and the likes... no one charges for these clubs to get in right? No one would dare or no one is allowed?

I suspect that extends to why no big bands will play there (who would want to be paid) as that would be an oxymoron to the whole 'attitude' of 'free <term>' at BM.

If that's true, then there's a big problem in rights. You pay them to bring your craft/art/fare/entertainment there and you're not paid and you can't charge people for it right?

Artists/Musicians decision. If they feel they can gain something from making an investment in Burning Man, then they will spend money to make money.

If that's true, then you should be able to own your own stuff, take pics, do whatever with it that you want.


On a deeper level, when you buy a ticket or show up, do they make you sign anything?

I know... I should just pose these questions towards my friend who goes all the time

Yeah, I think it's pretty shitty about the photographs and such. I haven't registered my cameras for years, but then again, I'm not that established either.

No, you don't sign anything. When you go through the gates, there are a bunch of people called "the greeters" that hug everyone and act all excited (which I don't really care for) but it is good for me to go and start getting used to accepting people. When burning Man wasn't so structured, they used to offer exotic alcohol shots to people driving into the gates- I remember. I was young, and wanted one, but my mother wouldn’t allow it. Too bad.

[FROZE]

Okay, first of all $300 to get into an event you have to bring your own entertainment to? I can get people to wear crazy half-naked outfits and do crafting in my living room where there is central air conditioning. Why would I pay someone else $300 so I could do the same thing in a crowded, filthy, sweaty place where my cell phone does not work so I probably can't even find my friends?

You definitely don’t need to invest on bringing your own entertainment. There are plenty of activities to keep you busy. If you don’t want to go- no one’s forcing you. It is an extreme survival event, and if you’re not comfortable getting filthy, no cell phone, letting go of material items, I wouldn’t recommend it to you. But some people enjoy this culture shock. I enjoy living in a primordial, tripped-out fashion for a week, and then being able to come back to reality.

If people are supposed to gift their art and food and shelter to others, why does Burning Man charge at all, much less charge so much?

Nothing is free, Burning Man has to pay the BLM (Bureau of Land Management)for a permit to occupy public property. This is one of the reasons Burning Man has in some opinions spiraled downward- because of government intervention. It is no longer legal for the event to just set up camp and chill, the government is intervening in many ways now, that no one is pleased with.

Burning Man is just one more greedy organization like LiveJournal or DeviantArt where they are extremely commercial, but they want to prevent creative people from doing anything with their own work, be it political or commercial. You know LiveJournal and DeviantArt and ******* etc. all run ad banners over what is posted on there? So, if Burning Man is cool with that, but they are not cool with a small independent site like Halcyon's running pics taken there, then they are just favoring big business over indie artists.

You must understand that for artists that don’t have any money, sites like Live Journal and Deviantart are all some have to grasp onto. I would love to own Dreamweaver, but I can’t afford it! These sites are extremely commercial because nothing can be done for free anymore. People who work for these sites must eat like everyone else. At least the majority of ads on deviant art are art related! People can’t just pull money out of their asses. Part of the artistic process is struggling at first, and then succeeding (hopefully) All sites have ads, even this one, you can’t escape this unless money started growing on trees.

I think the way Burning Man treats artists leads to less art in America in general. Burning Man provides an outlet for creative people, but they encourage painters and sculptors and such to destroy their work once it is complete and they balls-out claim ownership and control of work by photographers and writers and filmmakers. Press people are expected to pay to get in to Burning Man and then give Burning Man the right to tell them where and what they can and can't say or depict of the event afterward and anyone who might be press is expected, despite not being on any sort of comp list, to "register" with the event. Fascist much. If Burning Man wants to use rhetoric about the freedoms America is supposed to have, they might want to revisit that whole free speech and freedom of the press thing.

The government treats artists like gnats (they might as well not even exists)! At least Burning Man is still trying to draw artists together and support art in any way. Did you ever stop and think that government has this even under close watch, the people of burning Man must follow government rules if they would like to continue holding this event. ? Anyhow, if you were there back when it first started, it was totally different, I had a blast in the small community. I bet it would be unappealing to a lot of people who never been now. I probably wouldn’t even go, but it’s too much of a tradition for me now to just throw it away in the trash.

Lastly, Burning Man apparently feels compelled to spam the Blue Blood forums because I find it suspect that a supposedly uninvolved person has "OMG Go to Burning Man" as their first post. Is there any other explanation, besides this being commercial outreach?

OH-EM-GEE “Burning Man is stupid ” “You‘re different, therefore you suck!” “SPAMMER!” Thanks for the warm, welcoming, words. Is there any sense of community among artists? Or is this just an outreach of dominative practice?

[FROZE]

FROZE, you still have not answered the question about what you mean about established artists not trying to cut corners? Who said anything about cutting a corner? What corner? How are you defining established?

What charities does Burning Man donate to and what portion of the proceeds goes to charity?

I was speaking of artists that go to Burning Man, that don’t register their equipment, that know there are copyright issues, but still try and get away with taking pictures and posting them. I mentioned that if you are an artist and know you need to register your equipment, and you still “cut the corner and not register” then you shouldn’t complain later! Established: made a name for oneself, sells their art, makes enough money from their art to sustain and survive, OR someone who will create their art no matter what, just because it flows through their veins.
Local organizations in surrounding counties.

I did not say that nothing about Burning Man appeals to me. I enjoy creativity and flamboyant fashion and I agree with some of the Burning Man rhetoric. It just does not appear to me that the organizers of Burning Man actually live by the rhetoric they preach.

Not anymore- too many participants = government intervention. Burning man enthusiasts are holding on by a thread to try an not get negative attention. But with popularity, controversy follows. It’s much easier to be apprehensive about something, especially if you’ve never tried it.

Burning Man tries to own all art created and tries to destroy every piece of art they can't own. I also have a serious problem with some corporation trying to own all art everyone creates without even giving anything in return and I have a problem with a corporation telling artists what they may do with their own work.

They are not necessarily forced to destroy their art, but they must take it back to wherever it came from (clean up after themselves) otherwise the BLM won’t give them a permit to hold the event if public land is left in a destructive manner.

How is Burning Man different from other organized religions you invoked?

I think all religions are cults (in some form or another). Burning Man may be no different.

[Bikerpunk]

How about this?

You stop arguing with the site owner.
KTHXBYE

[Lady Alias]

How about this?

You stop arguing with the site owner.
KTHXBYE

So, because Amelia owns the site, you aren't allowed to debate her? =/ I haven't done more than skim their posts, but it just seems like a difference of opinion and perspective, not "omfg you're dumb".

[DJ Bat]

Now hold on just a second - I'm reading this and I'm not seeing as much as an argument as I am understanding being shed.

I spent 14+ years in the bay area and have had my fair share of similar type thinking events be it in principle or in a gathering such as various pagan festivals or street fairs, etc. -

The one thing about Burning Man is that it did stem from that philosophy - hell it stemmed from the Bay Area. Reading about it and learning more about it from sources that have gone there really does make this sound like it's still a valid attempt to obtain higher level consciousness through various mediums of self-expression and art, albeit while it's concept of 'free-love/gifts' thinking is a bit dated and that philosophy always has flaws when it comes to rational survivability in a common society (I.E, you're pretty much looking at Anarchy if this was common place in big cities), to provide a "Safe and Sane" (relatively) environment for such an event I think is awesome.

Hearing and seeing what goes on there, I can completely understand why people go and put 1000% into what their creating out there and again, if I had the time, money and ability, I would go and do something.

What is unfortunate is that there is a bit of a 'controlling' issue with the promoters plus, and please believe me when I tell you this...

NO ONE DOES ANYTHING FOR FREE. PERIOD THE END.

While there are costs for procuring the land, staff, etc., if you think for one millisecond that the main promoters aren't walking away with at least a few million in profit, you're insane. We're looking at what - a take of $220 average from apparently "Tens of Thousands of People" so 30,000... that's $6,600,000...

No way land out there for that time period with staff and cleanup is more then a million or two... Toss another million and various staff and insurance, etc., and yea, $3 million profit is my guess.

Now all in all it still comes down to control of which most people will not have a problem with - I'm guessing 85%-95%. Most people are there to get high, do their thang, promote themselves and just live the experience. The rest who are serious about utilizing their surround space be it in the studio or in RL @ BM to create their art as it's their life are apparently affected to a degree they're not used to nor do I think they should be ... so ... I asked on the inside about it:

From my source:

Within the confines of the city limits of Black Rock City (BRC), currency is irrelevant. They call it a gift economy. The ticket price pays for portapotties, Bureau of Land Management fees for land use, and over all public works costs. Once you get inside, you are free (literally) to do whatever you want.

When it comes to picture taking there are two things: Always ask somebody before you take their picture. This is just common sense and works in the RL too. And if you are to use your photos or video for works in profitable media (websites, magazines, newspapers, advertising) you first need to register your camera with BM and get permission to publish your work. As for personal photos and to post on FB and things like that, you are free to do as you please. These rules are basically to prevent FOX News and Girls Gone Wild from making a profit at our expense.

So first, LOL to the Girls Gone Wild comment as I was thinking that was one of the reasons in the beginning stages of this thread. It also seems to ease off a few things. One, any joe shmoe can shoot and post away on their private website. Once you stand to gain is when you need to "Register" to do so. It doesn't seem you CAN'T, you just have to get "Approved" whatever that means... A cut of profit? A one time fee? I dunno...

However, being the situation of what Burning Man stands for, I think them asking for such 'approval' is a bit assuming. It does contradict what they stand for and also goes against normal reasons other venues have 'No Picture Policies'. It's because they're private establishments with private contracts with performers, etc... - Burning Man is an admitted Free For All. That said sort of negates their position for controlling images (Video/Photos).

Now I can understand the need to approve installations due to safety reasons - I think that's a totally different issue, but it's like any other night of shooting/filming on a public site (and I'm calling BM an all out public site) - Companies put the standard sign up claiming that you can be filmed at any time against your will. Don't like it? Get out of the club/venue. Since BM is an admitted "Free For All", then I think it's safe to say that you're FREE to be filmed FOR ALL to see - butt nekkid or not.

Now yea, there are kids there and yes, I would probably take my kids when they are old enough provided I have the time, money and inclination as I know even the wildest peeps I know still have respect and I assume most people there do. I don't expect too much "Lord of the Flies" happening out there unless EVERYONE eats the FISH... BUT, in the end, I think FROZE, being new here, may of jumped in all excited about something without thought to consequence... Yea, it's in Promotional, Yea it seems a bit odd, but in the same breath, Amelia isn't charging anyone to post in Promotional Announcements and while the scale is much bigger, I think BM should let her register and take whatever video/pics she wants for her own profit here at BB based on the fact that it too promotes BM and SHE PAID TO GO. Something I doubt she has to do at probably almost any other event she goes to.

If BM is fair, their response should be "Sure, but you have to include this official graphic logo in your images" or something like that but they shouldn't decline and they shouldn't ask for any other financial restitution.

Now if GIRLS GONE WILD showed up, I think they would have just as much right to shoot there BUT, and here is where I can understand BM's position, I would DENY them based on their intentions do not stem from what BM stands for. Amelia and BB does.

meh... I'm not even going this year... I still would like to one day... lol

[Bikerpunk]

There's debating the site owner, and arguing with her.