Models are Human Beings

[Raza]

First of all, you are completely wrong that 75% of America won't find any hot girls on BlueBlood.com, but I wasn't just talking about people who are both female and naked and appear in the Blue Blood VIP anyway.

Part of the point is that, if there is no support from within the community, what is the point of creating anything and sharing it with the world?

Secondly, I felt like I was very clear in my article that the problem is NOT that some people might have a different preference. My primary point is that it is wrong to dehumanize someone for being in a photograph. It is wrong whether that means you decide they have all sorts of perfect qualities because you like the photo or bad qualities because you either dislike the photo or are envious.

I realize that man's inhumanity to man is the subject of most of the world's great literature, but I'd like to see a little more humanity in my own backyard. Is it really so much to ask to suggest that human being should treat the other people in their own community with a bit of humanity?

I could certainly take a broader view and ask why it is that my specific community attacks everyone who actually tries to do anything and attacks everything within it which might actually be a good thing. Why do you feel compelled to cannibalize your own?

I never see these mythical "Barbie" girls being casually cruel or dehumanizing to people in my community. They are not the enemy; the enemy is on the inside.

By 'your community' you mean these forums, or 'the alternative scene' at large?

'Cause I don't think I'm seeing what you're talking about. TDK's been pointed out as the greatest proponent of critique in this thread, but as someone of his gender (insofar as I have one of those), doing comparible things, I'm really not feeling the cannibalism.

If it's the scene at large I can see the "don't try too hard" attitude you might be talking about - we have a local 'dutch gothic messageboard' full of people whose idea of being goth is listing the cure among a list of favorite old pop bands and wearing black t-shirts and jeans now and then, who'll single you out and laugh at you if you do anything more - but it's definitely not nearly them as much as total outsiders that'll anonymously come down on you if your face makes it onto some goth-spotting LJ community or youtube or something. It's not barbie girls either, though; it's mostly young males with zero cultural identity beyond what they were born into.

[Amelia G]

By 'your community' you mean these forums, or 'the alternative scene' at large?

'Cause I don't think I'm seeing what you're talking about. TDK's been pointed out as the greatest proponent of critique in this thread, but as someone of his gender (insofar as I have one of those), doing comparible things, I'm really not feeling the cannibalism.

If it's the scene at large I can see the "don't try too hard" attitude you might be talking about - we have a local 'dutch gothic messageboard' full of people whose idea of being goth is listing the cure among a list of favorite old pop bands and wearing black t-shirts and jeans now and then, who'll single you out and laugh at you if you do anything more - but it's definitely not nearly them as much as total outsiders that'll anonymously come down on you if your face makes it onto some goth-spotting LJ community or youtube or something. It's not barbie girls either, though; it's mostly young males with zero cultural identity beyond what they were born into.

Oh, I definitely mean the "alternative" scene at large. There are these ideals which are commonly put forth as desireable, yet so many people in the scene constantly scrabble to tear down anyone who is striving toward or living by or achieving any of those goals. Look at anyone who has achieved success in music, for example, in a punk or gothic or industrial band. Odds are good that they just want to crawl out of their own skins most of the time because the people who should be their compatriots are so insanely mean.

Usually the haters and hostile cannibalism start waaaaaaaaay before anyone has achieved anything remotely like mainstream success by any definition. The obvious example of this is of course people who decide it is okay to be psycho rude to some girl because she has been on the cover of one magazine. Not like she gets to quit her retail job after that, ya know. And it should be something where people can appreciate what she did and just think it is a cool footnote to the overall person. All it is is a cool footnote. But there are so many hateful people. And of course there are also the sycophants who have to suck up endlessly to someone for having minor accomplishments. And neither of those is treating other people like human beings.

I think hot "alternative"-looking guys have it even worse, in terms of people throwing negativity at them for their awesomeness, because most men fear competitions they can't enter and a lot of guys -- mainstream or otherwise -- feel like they can't look like they tried too hard to look good. There is less of a social structure for addressing guys who look good in a counterculture way -- who look like they tried. And there is the whole homophobia issue there as well. It will be different when I am Benevolent World Dictator.

[One Eyed Cat]

Oh, I definitely mean the "alternative" scene at large. There are these ideals which are commonly put forth as desireable, yet so many people in the scene constantly scrabble to tear down anyone who is striving toward or living by or achieving any of those goals. Look at anyone who has achieved success in music, for example, in a punk or gothic or industrial band. Odds are good that they just want to crawl out of their own skins most of the time because the people who should be their compatriots are so insanely mean.

Usually the haters and hostile cannibalism start waaaaaaaaay before anyone has achieved anything remotely like mainstream success by any definition. The obvious example of this is of course people who decide it is okay to be psycho rude to some girl because she has been on the cover of one magazine. Not like she gets to quit her retail job after that, ya know. And it should be something where people can appreciate what she did and just think it is a cool footnote to the overall person. All it is is a cool footnote. But there are so many hateful people. And of course there are also the sycophants who have to suck up endlessly to someone for having minor accomplishments. And neither of those is treating other people like human beings.

I think hot "alternative"-looking guys have it even worse, in terms of people throwing negativity at them for their awesomeness, because most men fear competitions they can't enter and a lot of guys -- mainstream or otherwise -- feel like they can't look like they tried too hard to look good. There is less of a social structure for addressing guys who look good in a counterculture way -- who look like they tried. And there is the whole homophobia issue there as well. It will be different when I am Benevolent World Dictator.

[TheDeathKnight]

Yeah, it's a weird thing in this scene. When I first got into it, I really liked it because it seemed like people accepted each other, regardless of race, weight, success, attractiveness, etc...

But the longer I've been in the scene, I notice that under the surface, in private gossip, people are pretty harsh on each other. Saying things like this girl is fat, this one is a slut, etc. It reminds me of high school.

So yeah, even though people will accept that you have tats, or piercings, or weird hair, etc, they still will categorize you behind your back, and put you down for random things.

I haven't seen as much of the girl on girl harshness, but girls tell me it exists in the scene. But usually it seems like the less-attractive girls are really harsh on the pretty girls, if those girls show any kind of ego. So yeah, if a girl goes around saying she's a model, and stuff like that, other girls tend to insult her and put her down for her flaws. Body, personality, or otherwise.

And I have seen guys be just as picky in this scene, as any other. Where they put down the fat girls, and only want the prettiest, sexiest, etc. Even if those girls are "alternative", the guys still categorize them, even outside of the realm of photography...

So yeah, the ideal is what I thought this scene was about.
People accepting the weird.

And there is still some of that, and I try to encourage it.

But it seems like for the most part, this scene is just like
the rest of the world... Gossipey, cliquey, etc...

[Raza]

I don't know if that can be helped, honestly. Identity dissonance plays a huge part in human social dynamic; even if you take away the real hating, people are going to want to flock with those they think they have something in common with - or would like to have something in common with - while seeking to distinguish themselves from the opposite. The goth scene itself is a clique of sorts, people that identify as creepy and weird flocking together for the exact same type reasons that cause the smaller groups and divisions within it.

I harbor no real ill will towards people that are lacking in my perception of counterculture-coolness, but since that's what I'm looking for at a goth party I'm not going to want to hang out with them either. And if merely observing out loud that someone lacks some desirable trait - or possesses an undesirable one - gets interpreted as an insult while it is really only a statement of personal preference, the line gets real blurry real fast.

Moreso, when traits are loaded with a popularly recognized positive or negative stigma - such as being a model, being fat, or acting slutty - that will make it difficult even for people not sharing that popular perception to voice their opinions without being misunderstood, or to take pride in what they are without secretly resenting being identified as such by others.

It doesn't require hate to like what you are and enjoy distinguishing yourself by those traits, even if it hate tends to fuel the imitations of that by those that don't actually like themselves. I don't think the solution lies in expecting everybody to like everybody else equally, or to refrain from voicing any opinion that can be interpreted as negative. The solution lies in being able to accept that these things exist without holding it against people, when the time comes to interact with them for reasons that have nothing to do with how you're different from them. The solution lies in abolishing the idea that there's some sort of objective hierarchy ranking traits or groups, so that one person liking what he or she is no longer suggests that everybody else should like everything he or she isn't a little less.

[YoungSoulRebel]

This is most likely personal pride, but I do find that I hold it against people a little when they represent themselves through 'professional' photos that are for a large part not the product of their own efforts. When I see "Photo (c) soandso, makup by X, clothing provided by Y" under a picture I have a hard time seeing it as anybody's personal achievement.

This.

Now, personally, I rarely critique the model even half as much as I critique the work itself. I've posed for photos -- modelling, in and of itself, is rarely a "creative endeavour", it takes a bit more work and effort than most people give it credit for, but even when a model is being paid to "sit and be themselves" there is still a significant portion of the time spent following the directions of the photographer, if only for better lighting positions and what-not. Live models are to photographers what the choice between watercolours, acrylics, and oils are to a painter -- using a different paint medium will give a different effect and send a different mood across, but to say that the palette of oil colours did just as much or even more work on Amor Victorius than Caravaggio did would be silly.

That said, models are still human, but they're human beings doing a specific job, and their eligibility for that job is at the whim of the photographer and possibly other agents in-between. The average photographer's model is young, female, and like the average construction worker, will be deemed no-longer-fit for the job after so many years due to the effects of age. There are some exceptions (Christie Brinkley, I also know for a fact that at least a handful of Blue Blood models were in their late 30s or older at the time the sat for Amelia and Forrest), obviously, but on average, this is just how it works out.

Nude modelling isn't really any different, with the exception that there is a far wider range of "acceptable" body types that any one photographer will use. And photographers looking to shoot certain types only will obviously only seek out those types. If the photographer thought the model's flaws were too extraneous to work with, then they'd select a different model, so I really have no room to criticise whether a certain model is or is not "pretty enough" or whatever. If the photog thought the model was physically flawed to the point that they couldn't work with said model, the photog would have sought another model, plain and simple.

But then again, I never expect to be turned on by any female nudes, so lacking this sort of "personal interest" and therefore some kind of "entitlement" to criticize the model for failing to turn me on adequately, I may be at greater luxury to objectivity here. Furthermore, having lost the majority of any affections I once had for "the scene", I have no incentive to be unnecessarily mean to some model or another; if I know for a fact she or he is an unpleasant person, I'll speak to that, but even when I had fonder feelings toward "the scene", I still had this attitude -- which may very well be why many people talked crap about me (and why, I know for a fact, some still do talk crap and gossip my personal details); OK, I'm not 100% innocent of talking crap, but I can honestly say that I've talked a fair share less than most.

What this social incentive is, I never figured out, but there's a definite social incentive to talk crap about those who've achieved anything, from a popular record album to their bare bum in photographs. (As you, Amelia, once said in a previous news item, when you met Rozz Williams, people even there at the same club the same night as he, practically delighted in saying horrid things about him when out of earshot -- then many of those same people lamented "what a tragic loss" a few years later, after his suicide. Obviously, you're rather familiar with this phenomenon.) If it were as simplistic as "jealousy", then such things would not be said by happy nobodies, nor by people who've accomplished equally to those they bad-mouth. Human beings are unnecessarily complicated creatures, so obviously there is no simple answer to the Whys of this petty meanness.

[incog]

This.

Now, personally, I rarely critique the model even half as much as I critique the work itself. I've posed for photos -- modelling, in and of itself, is rarely a "creative endeavour", it takes a bit more work and effort than most people give it credit for, but even when a model is being paid to "sit and be themselves" there is still a significant portion of the time spent following the directions of the photographer, if only for better lighting positions and what-not. Live models are to photographers what the choice between watercolours, acrylics, and oils are to a painter -- using a different paint medium will give a different effect and send a different mood across, but to say that the palette of oil colours did just as much or even more work on Amor Victorius than Caravaggio did would be silly.

That said, models are still human, but they're human beings doing a specific job, and their eligibility for that job is at the whim of the photographer and possibly other agents in-between. The average photographer's model is young, female, and like the average construction worker, will be deemed no-longer-fit for the job after so many years due to the effects of age. There are some exceptions (Christie Brinkley, I also know for a fact that at least a handful of Blue Blood models were in their late 30s or older at the time the sat for Amelia and Forrest), obviously, but on average, this is just how it works out.

Nude modelling isn't really any different, with the exception that there is a far wider range of "acceptable" body types that any one photographer will use. And photographers looking to shoot certain types only will obviously only seek out those types. If the photographer thought the model's flaws were too extraneous to work with, then they'd select a different model, so I really have no room to criticise whether a certain model is or is not "pretty enough" or whatever. If the photog thought the model was physically flawed to the point that they couldn't work with said model, the photog would have sought another model, plain and simple.

But then again, I never expect to be turned on by any female nudes, so lacking this sort of "personal interest" and therefore some kind of "entitlement" to criticize the model for failing to turn me on adequately, I may be at greater luxury to objectivity here. Furthermore, having lost the majority of any affections I once had for "the scene", I have no incentive to be unnecessarily mean to some model or another; if I know for a fact she or he is an unpleasant person, I'll speak to that, but even when I had fonder feelings toward "the scene", I still had this attitude -- which may very well be why many people talked crap about me (and why, I know for a fact, some still do talk crap and gossip my personal details); OK, I'm not 100% innocent of talking crap, but I can honestly say that I've talked a fair share less than most.

What this social incentive is, I never figured out, but there's a definite social incentive to talk crap about those who've achieved anything, from a popular record album to their bare bum in photographs. (As you, Amelia, once said in a previous news item, when you met Rozz Williams, people even there at the same club the same night as he, practically delighted in saying horrid things about him when out of earshot -- then many of those same people lamented "what a tragic loss" a few years later, after his suicide. Obviously, you're rather familiar with this phenomenon.) If it were as simplistic as "jealousy", then such things would not be said by happy nobodies, nor by people who've accomplished equally to those they bad-mouth. Human beings are unnecessarily complicated creatures, so obviously there is no simple answer to the Whys of this petty meanness.

This is very insightful especially the parts about human complexity. I think sometimes photographers have to shoot people they might not like the flaws on. Like I had to be in photos every time I did a new album but I always liked to party and there were times it was probably harder than others for the photographers to make my mug look good.

I wish I knew what the social incentive is for talking crap. Do you think some of it is that sometimes people want to brag they know someone but if they talk crap then it sounds like complaining? Whiners are a drag so it seems like complaining should be as bad as bragging.