RIP David Aaron Clark

[ForrestBlack]

...but calling his expressions morally wrong because you don't want to hear them and have a taboo on your side is pretty much lowering yourself to his level - intellectually at least, if you prefer to keep that comfy moral highground.

Morality is conformity to the rules of right conduct. I don't believe in a lot of the bad things people do in the false name of morality, but I strongly believe in being a genuinely correctly moral person. Hiding behind an anonymous fake name while attacking the character and memory of a dead man in his own obituary thread is in fact lacking in moral stature and I see nothing wrong, or intellectually stifling, with pointing that out.

I guess I believe in working towards creating an environment that encourages greater freedom for people to be better and more creative and more confident, instead of working to garner the freedom and understanding for people who want to make the world I exist in a shittier place with their petty vendettas and spineless trollery.

[ForrestBlack]

I wasn't trying to compare anyone to MJ in terms of specific actions, morals, or behaviors.

I was saying that each person has an individual view of someone.

You did make the analogy though, and it was highly inappropriate, not to mention not terribly accurate. Given the nature of this thread, it isn't wholly out of line for some people to even be offended. Clearly this was an upsetting loss and some measure of humanity would dictate a little more discretion, particularly the kind of discretion that would prevent a person from comparing the dead man in question to a child molester simply because some spineless a-hole decided to troll the obituary based on some bullshit twenty year old grudge. There are times when proper people simply don't air their rotten negativity and you'd have to have something really wrong with you to not acknowledge that.

[TheDeathKnight]

But you keep missing my point with the MJ analogy.
Which is that there are tons of people who do NOT think MJ is a child molester at all.
Who think he was a great man, a great artist, and so on...

So I am saying that since I didn't know the person in question,
he could be a great and valued friend to you guys, but someone
else might really dislike them for their own weird reasons.

But I was at all times AGREEING with you that it's not the proper
place to bash on someone if you don't like them. That this entire
thread, not to mention the creators of this message board, are in
support of the deceased, and are mourning their loss, and therefore
posting your negative personal view of someone is not well-advised.

Anyhow, no offense was meant. Apologies if any of my evaluations
of the situation came across as offensive in any way. And I mean
that sincerely. Really. I like you guys, and I trust your judgment
WAY more than some random troll, so I don't want any debate
to minimize or trivialize your loss and your pain.

[Raza]

Morality is conformity to the rules of right conduct. I don't believe in a lot of the bad things people do in the false name of morality, but I strongly believe in being a genuinely correctly moral person. Hiding behind an anonymous fake name while attacking the character and memory of a dead man in his own obituary thread is in fact lacking in moral stature and I see nothing wrong, or intellectually stifling, with pointing that out.

I've got plenty of ideas that could be called an ethical framework, but there's a difference between thinking they're a good idea and using the concept of morality to elevate them above just being ideas. Calling something 'lacking in moral stature' does not convey any information, merely sheer disapproval. Referring to moral right and wrong as if they are things that exists outside the framework of your opinions suggests that they are beyond discussion, or at least polarizes the hell out of that discussion before it has any chance to start .

I do think that's intellectually stifling.

I guess I believe in working towards creating an environment that encourages greater freedom for people to be better and more creative and more confident, instead of working to garner the freedom and understanding for people who want to make the world I exist in a shittier place with their petty vendettas and spineless trollery.

Those two sentences could very easily describe the same people doing the same things from two different perspectives.

I understand that you guys are upset, but the more upset people are they more badly they tend to need outside perspectives. Maybe you guys don't and you're perfectly right here, but locking out opposing views from people in your position as a general rule is going to impact a lot of debates that really do have two sides, as I think TDK is trying to explain.

[mr_record]

Hey there, I was friends with DAC in New Brunswick NJ during the 80's punk/hardcore days. We played in different bands but often shared bills over that time period. He was an original. I think I missed the memorial but I do live in downtown L.A....would love to know if there're any services for him here.

thx

Mr. Record

[Andre Cholmondeley]

That's an interesting calculus "..the more upset people are they more badly they tend to need outside perspectives..."

Let's say I have studied ALL SIDES of , say, the global warming debate - and I end up MORE UPSET by all of it -- are you saying I STILL need to go out and get more opinions?? That formula just doesn't work for me, in my example, nor here.

I've been watching this with amazement--and perplexed by the people making excuses for this troll. I have also been trying to put myself in his shoes (BECAUSE I APPRECIATE OUTSIDE PERSPECTIVES!!!!!!)...and I played a little mind game:

Suppose one of these people died:

-George Bush 43
-Rumsfeld
-The Austrian dude who ***** and kept his daughter in a cell for 20 years
-Saddam Hussein

I asked myself -- as reprehensible (in their own ways) as each of these people are/were -- could I see myself savaging THE PEOPLE WHO MISS THEM because of personal reasons??? And I couldn't come up with a person whose SURVIVORS I would do that do.

No matter what excuses are made, this....individual.. is going after THOSE OF US WHO WANT TO REMEMBER Dave...not Dave himself.

It's Really sick and I feel dirty/nauseous to have even put any energy into responding to his vile spewing.

Dave was a great fucking guy to me when I was "just" a fan of his writing and music, and he was really great when we worked together putting together an albums, doing sessions etc. Every moment I observed him dealing with other musicians, photographers, strangers in studios, technical people, etc -- was always right on and completely respectful. I guess it was all an act, spread out over many years.

[H.P. Birdcraft]

Amelia G. wrote:
"My inboxes have been filled with notes from people who have had appalling experiences over the years with this sick person who would desecrate a memorial. Some have requested that I just delete all the inappropriate posts and, although I really do not like to do that, it may end up being the right thing to do. No, I'm not going to share what I've been told because it only dignifies this terrible terrible person."

Oooooh! "Appalling things"! From a "terrible, terrible person".
Scratch any goth 'goddess' and you'll find a prim, censorious, scapegoating scold with chronic body dysmorphia.

Mistress G., why don't you share one or more of these "appalling" things with the group? Because, perhaps, they're not true and don't stand up to the slightest scrutiny? And I would then factually pick them apart and reveal you to be a liar and suck-up? Recall, Amelia G., that your "fact checking" got both my identity and address wrong amid its crazy-quilt of other distortions and lies. All you've done is confirm my original assertion that the average Dave Clark fan is either a wannabe celebrity-snogger who turns to porn because no other field will have them....OR someone inhabiting such a dark, deep place that that downward looks like upward.

PS: MY Facebook "Friend" list includes quite a number of prominent writers, artists, filmmakers and photographers---make a note to have your "fact-checker" check this---and NOT ONE of them gives a rat's arse about Dave Clark, living or dead.

In short---he lived fast, died young, and left an ugly corpse. PLUS a whopping unpaid hospital bill. Why don't the Blueblood moralists take up a collection and pay it off? Morality never sleeps.

[mr_record]

That's an interesting calculus "..the more upset people are they more badly they tend to need outside perspectives..."

Let's say I have studied ALL SIDES of , say, the global warming debate - and I end up MORE UPSET by all of it -- are you saying I STILL need to go out and get more opinions?? That formula just doesn't work for me, in my example, nor here.

I've been watching this with amazement--and perplexed by the people making excuses for this troll. I have also been trying to put myself in his shoes (BECAUSE I APPRECIATE OUTSIDE PERSPECTIVES!!!!!!)...and I played a little mind game:

Suppose one of these people died:

-George Bush 43
-Rumsfeld
-The Austrian dude who ***** and kept his daughter in a cell for 20 years
-Saddam Hussein

I asked myself -- as reprehensible (in their own ways) as each of these people are/were -- could I see myself savaging THE PEOPLE WHO MISS THEM because of personal reasons??? And I couldn't come up with a person whose SURVIVORS I would do that do.

No matter what excuses are made, this....individual.. is going after THOSE OF US WHO WANT TO REMEMBER Dave...not Dave himself.

It's Really sick and I feel dirty/nauseous to have even put any energy into responding to his vile spewing.

Dave was a great fucking guy to me when I was "just" a fan of his writing and music, and he was really great when we worked together putting together an albums, doing sessions etc. Every moment I observed him dealing with other musicians, photographers, strangers in studios, technical people, etc -- was always right on and completely respectful. I guess it was all an act, spread out over many years.

Well put Andre. The same bullshit happened in New Brunswick over Decolator and Ebz (remember?). Cowards posting ridiculous things, hiding behind their computers.

[H.P. Birdcraft]

---Cowards posting ridiculous things, hiding behind their computers---

Where's the cowardice? Who's hiding? I've been outed by Maitresse Amelia. My name is published here. As is my address.

Meanwhile, I've expressed my views on the subject and it should be perfectly clear by now that I couldn't care less what you think.

[mr_record]

---Cowards posting ridiculous things, hiding behind their computers---

Where's the cowardice? Who's hiding? I've been outed by Maitresse Amelia. My name is published here. As is my address.

Meanwhile, I've expressed my views on the subject and it should be perfectly clear by now that I couldn't care less what you think.

Wasn't referring to you, only the likes of you. Either way, the shoe fits.

[Aza]

PS: MY Facebook "Friend" list includes quite a number of prominent writers, artists, filmmakers and photographers---make a note to have your "fact-checker" check this---and NOT ONE of them gives a rat's arse about Dave Clark, living or dead.

Then why do you?

You've just spent nine passionate posts - your only posts on this entire forum (under this name), for that matter - attacking a man's mourners because he's too dead for you to attack him directly... a man about whom you simultaneously wish us to believe that no important person would ever give a "rat's arse". (One might ask if you wish these folks to do as you say or as you do.) You've cared quite a lot for someone you think no one should care about; right here in front of us all, you've proven how much power D.A.C. truly had over you in life, and still has even in death.

I never knew Dave Clark, and so couldn't consider myself a fan... but I'm considering becoming one just because you've put this much time and energy into denouncing him! Hell, if either his personality or his work was dynamic enough to leave so deep a mark on your soul and psyche as this, he must be worth checking out!

[H.P. Birdcraft]

Boy howdy, you got me hooked and horned!
"he must be worth checking out!"
absolutely!
especially "Zen and the Art of Fellatio"
have fun!

[mystoo]

I've expressed my views on the subject and it should be perfectly clear by now that I couldn't care less what you think.

Then why are you still talking??

[TheDeathKnight]

especially "Zen and the Art of Fellatio"
have fun!

So you have never in your life done any crappy art? Never?
Because I sure as hell have done some TERRIBLE art, photos,
movies, costumes, and other endeavors, early in my career.
If anyone wanted to dig up my old art from 10-20 years ago,
it would be appallingly bad. It takes a lot of practice, and
mistakes, to get good at anything. Be it music, painting, or even porn...

I tend to think that art critics are the ones who can't do anything
truly amazing on their own merit.

I do tend to dislike people who criticize other people's
artwork, but fail to do any art themselves. Like people bitch
about movies all the time. Ever tried to make your own?
It's not easy.

[Raza]

That's an interesting calculus "..the more upset people are they more badly they tend to need outside perspectives..."

Let's say I have studied ALL SIDES of , say, the global warming debate - and I end up MORE UPSET by all of it -- are you saying I STILL need to go out and get more opinions?? That formula just doesn't work for me, in my example, nor here.

It's not a formula, it's a correlation that skips a few steps in the causal sequence and ends up being true on average.

Not that your example is very good; 'uptset' is a broad word, and the kind you might get from excessively studying the global warming debate is more like stress than grief. Besides, in that situation you would need a different perspective; namely that as an individual you don't have to solve all the world's problems to live a fulfilling life, and that beyond what you can and want to do to contribute it's ok to put the matter out of your head. Perspectives are more than just the opinions facing off in debate.

I've been watching this with amazement--and perplexed by the people making excuses for this troll.

Nobody's 'making excuses'. I'll only speak for myself; what I don't like is the polarizing fierceness with which the guy is being condemned. The 'with us or against us' mindset behind this very remark is one of the many reasons why.

Birdy isn't really relevant. The world is full of spite and people ready to spew shit on account of it, but all this one is doing is talking and that can't hurt anyone unless they let it. Amelia and Forest, however, are central to this community and contribute interesting things to the world in general, and running the site as they do have all the big guns in their pockets. Hearing them speak in icky terms of moral wrong and rightful taboo and contemplating adding more censorship to these boards to guard against it exaggerated horrors because they fumbled their ignore checks in this particular instance is far more interesting and worrisome to me than Guy I Disagree With On The Internets #3541993051325.

[H.P. Birdcraft]

If nothing else I think we've established in the course of these discussions that Amelia and Forest are cretins who make their livelihoods exploiting persons--"gothic sluts" et al---even more clueless than themselves.

When I think of these losers 15 or 20 years from now I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. To call them pathetic would be an insult to pathos.

Good nite.

[RnR]

Nobody's 'making excuses'. I'll only speak for myself; what I don't like is the polarizing fierceness with which the guy is being condemned. The 'with us or against us' mindset behind this very remark is one of the many reasons why.

Birdy isn't really relevant. The world is full of spite and people ready to spew shit on account of it, but all this one is doing is talking and that can't hurt anyone unless they let it. Amelia and Forest, however, are central to this community and contribute interesting things to the world in general, and running the site as they do have all the big guns in their pockets. Hearing them speak in icky terms of moral wrong and rightful taboo and contemplating adding more censorship to these boards to guard against it exaggerated horrors because they fumbled their ignore checks in this particular instance is far more interesting and worrisome to me than Guy I Disagree With On The Internets #3541993051325.

I agree with you on the "talking can't hurt anyone unless they let it" remark but from what I've seen reading this thread over the past few days Amelia and Forest are already hurt and the words of Birdy are just picking at the open wound. I think they both have a right to be upset, it's not like the bird guy has contributed anything meaningful to this thread. All he's done so far is be very antagonistic. I mean, I'll give him credit for being able to string words together into pretty and verbose sentences but that doesn't speak much for him outside of an high school English course. Honestly I could give two shakes of a dog's dick about the dude. However, I don't think his thoughts should be censored or that anything on this forum should be censored but I do think he should be condemned for being an asshat. It's extremely obvious he's attention whoring and now that he's been given attention he's not going to go away until he orgasms from the intense stroking of his ego that's been going on. I mean really...who the hell names themselves H.P Birdcraft unless they are planning to shit on whatever sidewalk you happen to be walking down?

[Amelia G]

---Cowards posting ridiculous things, hiding behind their computers---

Where's the cowardice? Who's hiding? I've been outed by Maitresse Amelia. My name is published here. As is my address.

Meanwhile, I've expressed my views on the subject and it should be perfectly clear by now that I couldn't care less what you think.

I have no idea why you are obsessed with me and what you perceive as my apparent "fame" and "goddess"-dom. You obviously care deeply what I think or, being a total stranger, you would not have signed up to my site to blather on disrespectfully of the recently departed, whose passing I am mourning, just because he was hired to do a job your boss -- twenty years ago -- hadn't thought you were good enough to do.

You obviously were hiding behind your computer (or a computer you borrowed), until karyn posted about you. Normally I would remove a post which included overly personal info about someone else, but you had already responded to karyn, so I left both.

[Amelia G]

Then why do you?

You've just spent nine passionate posts - your only posts on this entire forum (under this name), for that matter - attacking a man's mourners because he's too dead for you to attack him directly... a man about whom you simultaneously wish us to believe that no important person would ever give a "rat's arse". (One might ask if you wish these folks to do as you say or as you do.) You've cared quite a lot for someone you think no one should care about; right here in front of us all, you've proven how much power D.A.C. truly had over you in life, and still has even in death.

I never knew Dave Clark, and so couldn't consider myself a fan... but I'm considering becoming one just because you've put this much time and energy into denouncing him! Hell, if either his personality or his work was dynamic enough to leave so deep a mark on your soul and psyche as this, he must be worth checking out!

Thanks.

[Amelia G]

So you have never in your life done any crappy art? Never?
Because I sure as hell have done some TERRIBLE art, photos,
movies, costumes, and other endeavors, early in my career.
If anyone wanted to dig up my old art from 10-20 years ago,
it would be appallingly bad. It takes a lot of practice, and
mistakes, to get good at anything. Be it music, painting, or even porn...

I tend to think that art critics are the ones who can't do anything
truly amazing on their own merit.

I do tend to dislike people who criticize other people's
artwork, but fail to do any art themselves. Like people bitch
about movies all the time. Ever tried to make your own?
It's not easy.

Even the best baseball players don't hit a home run every time.

A frustration to me is that, because some people really like some things I've done, I feel like everything I do is subject to this weird level of scrutiny, even if I'm working in a medium for the very first time. If I glue dry macaroni and glitter to a piece of construction paper with friends, I don't expect that to be the highest quality and most life-changing work I ever created and it weirds me out when there are people who think it should be put to the same judgment.

[Amelia G]

Birdy isn't really relevant. The world is full of spite and people ready to spew shit on account of it, but all this one is doing is talking and that can't hurt anyone unless they let it. Amelia and Forest, however, are central to this community and contribute interesting things to the world in general, and running the site as they do have all the big guns in their pockets. Hearing them speak in icky terms of moral wrong and rightful taboo and contemplating adding more censorship to these boards to guard against it exaggerated horrors because they fumbled their ignore checks in this particular instance is far more interesting and worrisome to me than Guy I Disagree With On The Internets #3541993051325.

Raza, normally I'd enjoy debating the finer points of moral philosophy with you. You are intelligent, well-spoken, consistent, do creative projects, and often don't think the same thing I do on various issues. So normally that should lead to many interesting conversations and has in the past.

You are correct that I should have deleted the birdbrain guy's first post, not responded to it, and put him on ban or global ignore. I dislike censorship and I thought someone would have to have a serious complaint to come into an obit thread like that. It never occurred to me that his beef would be so trivial as DAC got a job the troll was fired from twenty years ago and also DAC did performance art. So I gave the troll an opportunity to speak. I should not have and I regret it. I have trouble not engaging. And that is on me.

But Blue Blood had only its second banning ever pretty recently and it was of someone who basically asked to be banned. So the concept is kinda new to me.

I want this to be a place where intelligent people can exchange varied perspectives. It has been that for many years. But, if I can't even mourn in basically my own home, I need to rethink my strategy here.

For the record, nothing you personally posted in this thread upset me.

[Amelia G]

Hey there, I was friends with DAC in New Brunswick NJ during the 80's punk/hardcore days. We played in different bands but often shared bills over that time period. He was an original. I think I missed the memorial but I do live in downtown L.A....would love to know if there're any services for him here.

thx

Mr. Record

There will probably be a more official memorial on the 19th. Please hit me at the email at http://ameliag.com/1988/07/appearances-and-booking/