Selling Out

[One Eyed Cat]

From Live Journal Thread.

I see selling out as any instance where you go against your principles simply to make
$$$. On any independent scene, this will usually be judged by who allows themselves to have their work assimilated by corporations for profit. Was curious if people had specific ideas as to what would be and would not be selling out?

I believe it goes well beyond "signing to majors". There are other instances where you may have an opportunity to alter your work product simply for financial gain. As there are a number of artists here, I am curious as to where you would draw the line between making a buck and selling out? I do not intend to judge answers as right or wrong.

I'm not growing up, I'm just SELLING OUT! - Billie Joe at last Green Day concert at 924 Gilman Punk Club 1993.


OEC

[Morning Glory]

making a buck is selling out. you're litterally selling out your creativity for money. now as far as sacrificing your ideals for a job....
well, there's no such thing really as someone that used to be a homeless bum in protest against land ownership, that refused to eat any animal product or use anything that harmed the environment and made a living by dumpster diving and singing on the street corner for change who was approached by a major record label and corporate investors and MTV who then cut a pop album, got rich and now lives in beverly hills and drives a porshe.
the point is that anyone who was truly against what "selling out" means in the first place wouldn't do it, and the kind of people that pay the "sell outs" would never want them either.

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

Someone much smarter than me once said, all art is either masturbation or prostitution. I think most art is a healthy dose of both. Every piece contains elements that are for the audience and elements that are for the artist. Sometimes that balance comes frommoney, sometimes the desire for recognition, sometimes other factors are involved. The thing is, most artists compramise their works to some degree, but how much is selling out? What if you do a sell out project to pay for future projects? What if you really do just decide you like to more marketable feel? I have a hard time drawing the line for anyone but myself. I may not like a band's new image or style, but I would still not call them sellouts unless I knew the artist had changed. I prefer to assume they just took a direction I do not like.

As far as my own personal line, I don't reall know. I mean, pretty much if I ever put out a piece I did not want my name on I would consider myself a sellout, but I don't know where that point is. Some flexibility exists in whatever I do, but there is a point where you just kinda say that this is no longer a project of your choosing. I just dont know where that point is.

[killerkat]

I see it the way OEC had it" you go against your principles simply to make
$$$" you can do things for the audience, hell thats just showboatin' fun....but you start doing things that you wouldn't ever do back in the day when you started,

for example, being a death metal band then a year later,popular as fuck, you start writing love songs and slowing your riffs&drums,change your vocals and shit, ohh and cut your hair(wink),and make changes you would certainly never do when you made the band and the prencipals of the band,therefor your going against the principals,and ideals of your band/art for ,say, money,fame,sex,anything really, it's all selling out.....

it's all too common these days,but in the samn since the term itself is used much more than it actually applies to bands,ect......

[Amelia G]

From Live Journal Thread.

I see selling out as any instance where you go against your principles simply to make
$$$. On any independent scene, this will usually be judged by who allows themselves to have their work assimilated by corporations for profit. Was curious if people had specific ideas as to what would be and would not be selling out?

I believe it goes well beyond "signing to majors". There are other instances where you may have an opportunity to alter your work product simply for financial gain. As there are a number of artists here, I am curious as to where you would draw the line between making a buck and selling out? I do not intend to judge answers as right or wrong.

I'm not growing up, I'm just SELLING OUT! - Billie Joe at last Green Day concert at 924 Gilman Punk Club 1993.


OEC

I 100% agree. If you change your principles for money, then you are selling out. If you happen to make money from your art, you are just selling.

I think Green Day was true to their principles and the Gilman Street crowd that ostracized them were exactly the kind of punk rockers who keep our corporate overlords (if you will excuse the dramatic terminology) on top and us down below. These are the kind of people who will support a wholly corporately-created cartoon on TV, but will backstab one of their own who tries to succeed.

[Amelia G]

making a buck is selling out. you're litterally selling out your creativity for money. now as far as sacrificing your ideals for a job....
well, there's no such thing really as someone that used to be a homeless bum in protest against land ownership, that refused to eat any animal product or use anything that harmed the environment and made a living by dumpster diving and singing on the street corner for change who was approached by a major record label and corporate investors and MTV who then cut a pop album, got rich and now lives in beverly hills and drives a porshe.
the point is that anyone who was truly against what "selling out" means in the first place wouldn't do it, and the kind of people that pay the "sell outs" would never want them either.

I agree that someone with a stain on their soul to begin with is most likely to go that route, but Los Angeles is full of people who claimed one thing when they were couch surfing and another thing once they had some dough. It is H2s at the moment I think of not Porsches, but I'm not positive.

[One Eyed Cat]

I 100% agree. If you change your principles for money, then you are selling out. If you happen to make money from your art, you are just selling.

I think Green Day was true to their principles and the Gilman Street crowd that ostracized them were exactly the kind of punk rockers who keep our corporate overlords (if you will excuse the dramatic terminology) on top and us down below. These are the kind of people who will support a wholly corporately-created cartoon on TV, but will backstab one of their own who tries to succeed.

Agree. I still remember their last show at the Phoenix in Petaluma. People who had embraced them the year before were picketing! Billie has given a lot back to the scene including his own Adeline Records http://www.adelinerecords.com My former roommate convinced him to sing that instead of "Im not growing up, Im just BURNING OUT" twas funny They'll always be a part of my memories and my heart, tho I have not spoken to em in years The guy I pmed u about is like my little brother. Friendship has to come first or it's all fucking worthless. You remember any PR Police types around u? It's bullshit.


OEC

[killerkat]

ya know as far as greenday goes,looking back from when i first picked up Dookie til now, they haven't changed all THAT much ,some stuipid stuff here and there,but they seem to be the exact friggin' same,, they just happen to be popular again because of the dumb-ass trends right now.....

i,ve seen alot worse as far as selling out goes....so i say to Greenday and there succsess....but i still haven't really listined to them since Dookie.....but it still stands.....

[One Eyed Cat]

ya know as far as greenday goes,looking back from when i first picked up Dookie til now, they haven't changed all THAT much ,some stuipid stuff here and there,but they seem to be the exact friggin' same,, they just happen to be popular again because of the dumb-ass trends right now.....

Dookie was actually their third album. They had 2 on Lookout Records. One was a comp of 7" and EPs and Kerplunk They are definitely the same band.

OEC

[killerkat]

i never serously liked them...so i doubt i ever looked, at the age, at previous music.........but i might check into someday.......

[Morning Glory]

I agree that someone with a stain on their soul to begin with is most likely to go that route, but Los Angeles is full of people who claimed one thing when they were couch surfing and another thing once they had some dough.

true, many people will claim to be one thing but when it comes down to getting off the couch, will quickly change thier tune, no money or fame involved, just the prospect of having to actually do something. but like you said the issue isn't whose side you'll pretend to be on... those people aren't sell-outs, they have no concept of principles in the first place, so there's no worry about them changing.

It is H2s at the moment I think of not Porsches, but I'm not positive.

well I see plenty of yuppies driving H2's and suburbanites in escalades. I was just thinking of whatever a rich rock star might have

[killerkat]

well I see plenty of yuppies driving H2's and suburbanites in escalades. I was just thinking of whatever a rich rock star might have

some dumb ass 9million dollar, dripping in chrome , 19ft long,"chopper",covered in like 100gallons of paint and clear...........


ohh, and it's gotta be from one of those "builders" that have been on discovery channel............

[Amelia G]

true, many people will claim to be one thing but when it comes down to getting off the couch, will quickly change thier tune, no money or fame involved, just the prospect of having to actually do something. but like you said the issue isn't whose side you'll pretend to be on... those people aren't sell-outs, they have no concept of principles in the first place, so there's no worry about them changing.

Too true. I think a bunch of those people are the ones who get a real bug up their couch-attached butts about bands like Green Day.

[Morning Glory]

yeah, those guys are great. they weld two pipes together for handle bars, then assemble ten pre-made parts and send it off for someone else to paint and detail, and then they act like they are brilliant motor cycle mechanics.

[killerkat]

yea, it's possible the most fucked up thing i've ever seen.......i've built bikes before,those"choppers" are like putting together legos,it's frame tanks,ect,front,engine,lines,electric......a fuckin blind man can do it.......i built an old triumph with a friend and that bitch took some skill...

here it is......(haha theres my chicks purse sitting there,just noticed that,,funny story about that......)



sorry,to get off topic.........

[Morning Glory]

nice.

[SindelChaos]

Selling out in my opinion, is going against something you stood for, like stating to never participate with MTV, and then a year later ending up going with them just because you want money. If they are doing it truthfully to themselves and they are good at what they do, they should get paid to do it.
I believe a lot of MTV's talent is shit. I wouldn't call it art. I would call it mass produced drivel to make a record label money.
Nick Cave is a good example of selling out without money. Everything he has done before 97, had a very anti-christian feel to it. All his latest stuff, I have found is god related. Is this selling out? I mean, truth is in the moment, am I correct? People have the right to change, but this came as a big blow to his fan base. At least, he declined MTV's Male Artist of the Year with the Murder Ballads. Rozz Willams and Eva O also did the born again Christian thing from what I've heard after discovering they had AIDs.

[nyar]

Selling out - for me- is changing what you do specifficly to make money or even just to "be accepted"- I heard the "masturbation/prostitution" line someone metioned above before as well, Im not so sure I buy that.
I WANT to masturbate- (no, not right now)
but I HAVE TO make art!! Yes some idiots will say " no you don't, you have the choice", but no, its not like that- A huge piece of me would be missing if I didn't, If a bird didn't fly because it chose not to, it would be defying its very nature- right?- right
So- as artists(of all kinds) we have to do what comes natural, and follow our individual flows, paths, or visions- if that can make us money- we're very lucky
its when we stray from that, and become greedy, that we become corporate/societal whores- attempting to use our inate abilities to alter our path, torwards what we think we want or need, instead of being happy just sustaining ourselves and our work. As far as I can tell greenday hasn't changed all that much, there just became a larger demand for what they were doing, thats cool, thier path went that way, if in fact they decided to change thier ideals in order for it to go that way, then yes- they are suckling satans penis- if not, hip-hip-hurray- score one for the artists.
does that make any sense?

[Jax]

I really dont understand why selling out is such a bad thing. Ok, so you have this little band that a label sees major potential in, but the catch is you have to change some things you may not want to to get paid. I dont see whats wrong with that. If I get this record deal, would I grow out my hair? Yep. Would I write a song that means nothing to me? Yep. Because I love to sing, and who wouldnt like making money at what they love doing, even if you have to compromise a few things? Its a hell of a lot better than having a 9-5 crappy low paying job living paycheck to paycheck doing something you hate anyways. So would that mean MOST people are sell outs? I wore a wig to be an admin asst not too long ago, I hate wigs, I hate everything they stand for used as a tool to conform someone. But I did it anyways to pay my bills.

[ForrestBlack]

To me, selling out has a lot more to do with subcultural treason, rather than personal adaptation. Sure, you can sometimes feel weird taking personal gain over artistic integrity or whatever, and that can be a big deal, but to really 'sell out' I think you have to put your culture into risk. Say for example you compile tons of punkrock demographic data and sell it to a mall store so the can better compete with the local punkrock shops. That is selling out, to me. Having a successful band and having to change a few things in order to play bigger venues, well, I don't really have a problem with that unless members of the band honestly feel in their hearts that what they are doing is wrong and bad for their artistic vision.

[Tequila Zaire]

If selling out means making money of your art...then that makes no sense since every artist would have sold out the minute they got paying work. Don't know about the rest of you artists but I LIKE making money off my art. Keeps me from working a 9 to 5 that I would hate or some shitty mall job. Plus art is not cheap to make to begin with...can't continue to make it without the tools needed. In my case it's a couple of hundred every few months for basic supplies. When new programs and updated tools come out though...it gets up there. So I need to "Sell out" to continue.

As a writer I have to venues...the work I do for myself and fund out of my pocket and the stories I sell. The ones I sell are pretty much the ones that get changed the most since it's the EDITOR who makes the calls not me. He decides if it gets put into print or not. So I don't see it as selling out when I change those stories have the least of my control to begin with. If however it changes the WHOLE idea that I sold...then oddly I'm happy. Cause that means I get to keep my orginal concept for something else and work on something else that will inevitably fund it. You pick your battles and you survive...or else nothing gets made.

As far as betraying a subculture...if you are supported by it then you do have some responsibility to it. For your own good really since to betray it would cost you in the end...but if you are making nothing off it and you don't enjoy it anymore...then just move on and leave it as you found it. Too many leave it and try to cash in on it since it means nothing to them anyway and end up hurting themselves in ways they didn't think would.

Though in my misadventures the people who voice sell out the most are usually the ones who never support a damned thing anyway when it comes to forking over thier $$$. They are the first to complain about ticket or event prices, price hikes, subscription sites, donation runs, etc. So fuck em...they are WORSE than a sell out, they are vocal parasites who use their words to shield the fact they don't contribute anything to the subculture or art they seem so fond of.

[One Eyed Cat]

Selling out in my opinion, is going against something you stood for, like stating to never participate with MTV, and then a year later ending up going with them just because you want money. If they are doing it truthfully to themselves and they are good at what they do, they should get paid to do it.
I believe a lot of MTV's talent is shit. I wouldn't call it art. I would call it mass produced drivel to make a record label money.
Nick Cave is a good example of selling out without money. Everything he has done before 97, had a very anti-christian feel to it. All his latest stuff, I have found is god related. Is this selling out? I mean, truth is in the moment, am I correct? People have the right to change, but this came as a big blow to his fan base. At least, he declined MTV's Male Artist of the Year with the Murder Ballads. Rozz Willams and Eva O also did the born again Christian thing from what I've heard after discovering they had AIDs.

You make an excellent point. Personally, I do not see Nick Cave as selling out at all. That is actually fairly courageous. Truth is definitely in the moment.


OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

To me, selling out has a lot more to do with subcultural treason, rather than personal adaptation. Sure, you can sometimes feel weird taking personal gain over artistic integrity or whatever, and that can be a big deal, but to really 'sell out' I think you have to put your culture into risk. Say for example you compile tons of punkrock demographic data and sell it to a mall store so the can better compete with the local punkrock shops. That is selling out, to me. Having a successful band and having to change a few things in order to play bigger venues, well, I don't really have a problem with that unless members of the band honestly feel in their hearts that what they are doing is wrong and bad for their artistic vision.

I remember this from the early 90s. A and R folks started infilitrating the clubs in the Bay Area. I think you are dead right. It was not Green Day or Rancid selling out (they are exactly as they were) The scene was just being assimilated from within.


OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

If selling out means making money of your art...then that makes no sense since every artist would have sold out the minute they got paying work. Don't know about the rest of you artists but I LIKE making money off my art. Keeps me from working a 9 to 5 that I would hate or some shitty mall job. Plus art is not cheap to make to begin with...can't continue to make it without the tools needed. In my case it's a couple of hundred every few months for basic supplies. When new programs and updated tools come out though...it gets up there. So I need to "Sell out" to continue.

As a writer I have to venues...the work I do for myself and fund out of my pocket and the stories I sell. The ones I sell are pretty much the ones that get changed the most since it's the EDITOR who makes the calls not me. He decides if it gets put into print or not. So I don't see it as selling out when I change those stories have the least of my control to begin with. If however it changes the WHOLE idea that I sold...then oddly I'm happy. Cause that means I get to keep my orginal concept for something else and work on something else that will inevitably fund it. You pick your battles and you survive...or else nothing gets made.

As far as betraying a subculture...if you are supported by it then you do have some responsibility to it. For your own good really since to betray it would cost you in the end...but if you are making nothing off it and you don't enjoy it anymore...then just move on and leave it as you found it. Too many leave it and try to cash in on it since it means nothing to them anyway and end up hurting themselves in ways they didn't think would.

Though in my misadventures the people who voice sell out the most are usually the ones who never support a damned thing anyway when it comes to forking over thier $$$. They are the first to complain about ticket or event prices, price hikes, subscription sites, donation runs, etc. So fuck em...they are WORSE than a sell out, they are vocal parasites who use their words to shield the fact they don't contribute anything to the subculture or art they seem so fond of.

I came to hate aspects of the scene for this reason. They would even accuse bands of "selling out" if their music had a pop feel to it. It was hard fucking work to set up shows, for my friends to find sane musicians etc. They boycotted are theater because we had to have big acts play to even keep the venue alive.


OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

I really dont understand why selling out is such a bad thing. Ok, so you have this little band that a label sees major potential in, but the catch is you have to change some things you may not want to to get paid. I dont see whats wrong with that. If I get this record deal, would I grow out my hair? Yep. Would I write a song that means nothing to me? Yep. Because I love to sing, and who wouldnt like making money at what they love doing, even if you have to compromise a few things? Its a hell of a lot better than having a 9-5 crappy low paying job living paycheck to paycheck doing something you hate anyways. So would that mean MOST people are sell outs? I wore a wig to be an admin asst not too long ago, I hate wigs, I hate everything they stand for used as a tool to conform someone. But I did it anyways to pay my bills.

I don't necessarily see those things as selling out. For one, you have solid personal values and integrity. I come at it from a rare perspective. It was my guys who "sold out".


OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

Selling out - for me- is changing what you do specifficly to make money or even just to "be accepted"- I heard the "masturbation/prostitution" line someone metioned above before as well, Im not so sure I buy that.
I WANT to masturbate- (no, not right now)
but I HAVE TO make art!! Yes some idiots will say " no you don't, you have the choice", but no, its not like that- A huge piece of me would be missing if I didn't, If a bird didn't fly because it chose not to, it would be defying its very nature- right?- right
So- as artists(of all kinds) we have to do what comes natural, and follow our individual flows, paths, or visions- if that can make us money- we're very lucky
its when we stray from that, and become greedy, that we become corporate/societal whores- attempting to use our inate abilities to alter our path, torwards what we think we want or need, instead of being happy just sustaining ourselves and our work. As far as I can tell greenday hasn't changed all that much, there just became a larger demand for what they were doing, thats cool, thier path went that way, if in fact they decided to change thier ideals in order for it to go that way, then yes- they are suckling satans penis- if not, hip-hip-hurray- score one for the artists.
does that make any sense?

I think if you actually lose you artistic honesty, that would be the only true instance of selling out.


OEC

[nyar]

[QUOTE=OneEyedCat]I think if you actually lose you artistic honesty, that would be the only true instance of selling out.

same thing- kinda- pretty much- Its all relative- depends on ones definition. I think your "honesty" can be kept, even if you have compromised your original ideals or direction.
For me the main thing is ones intent.

[TheDeathKnight]

I have no problem with the idea of selling out.
Everyone has to survive in this world.
It's hard to make a good living, and still be an individual,
and be creative, etc. So if someone sees a way to make a
band, or a movie, that will appeal to the masses, then why
shouldn't they do it? As someone mentioned, it's a way to
pay the bills, that is a pretty fun life. Playing gigs, or making
movies, or doing any kind of art, is a lot more fun than working
a boring 9-5 job at some office. So if someone sees a way to make
a good living doing something fun, then go for it. You still have to
take responsibility for the stuff you create. If you make art that
sells, but it encourages people to conform, etc, then you are part
of the problems of society. I often tend to defend artists like
Avril Lavigne, etc, because even though they are doing "commercial"
pop music, they are exposing young teens to the idea of being
different, and being original with your look and style, and showing
them it is ok to be something other than Britney Spears, etc...
It may be sellout pop music, but at least it is pushing young
people in the right direction, so they become more comfortable
with experimenting with their own looks, etc., instead of just
conforming with the cheerleader ideal.

[Kidthorazine]

i dont have a problem with someone like signing to a major record label (which many of my freinds consider selling out) i dont consider it selling out unless someone tottaly changes the style of thier music to immitate the popular thing at the moment actually this usually turns out to be bad for the band in the long run anyways because trends dont last and its really hard to not get stuck in a trend if you are trying to do the big thing of the day i think this is why Madonna has had to reinvent herself so many times so she can stay fresh and thus more succesfull weve seen britney spears do the same thing to keep up with the trends its ridiculous buts thats what you have to do if you want to last and not many bands can do that on the other side of things no one has forgetten who Marilyn Manson is because he never treid to conform to anything and just did whatever the fuck he wanted making him unique and whatnot of course he also has a lot of marketing talent which does help his case but it still serves my point anyway yeah im done