Ya Gotta Love The NRA

[Tequila Zaire]

Yes in kentucky you can buy plenty of illegal shit (not just guns mind you im talking claymores, millitary grade body armor, hand grenades, and in one case that was artfully covered up by the media and the government, mortar shells) you can buy some of theese things such as "de-milled" grenades at gun shows and the other stuff later from the dealers you meet at gun shows.
As for the imported knockoffs this is true to some extent and ive actually shot some of theese knock offs and they ae horribly inaccurate and extreemely low quality which makes them very impractical. Ive seen a lot more of the real thing than knockoffs and many of them are sold by "legitimate" and very easy to trace gun dealers.

Crooked arms deals by military guys is old as...well warfare. No real shock. It's a problem every military faces...but statisticly the number is much lower than the knock offs I'm talking about...some are pretty god awful...some are not since like some high grade chinese ones...they are starting to use the actual machines used to make the real things. It's still very big buisness...just like the black market of military grade weaponry...arms ******'s are a bit fun though...their was one in Mexico I got to go too...lots of cold war stuff mainly but it's where I got to fire my first AK-47 and assorted russian heavy machine guns. Nowadays though you get a healthy mix from Asia, Africa, former Russian sattelite states (they manage to get their hands on stuff like those used by modern European arimes)...I was a bit shocked to hear some stuff the french use has been cropping up more...along with stuff that really shouldn't be popping up to begin with (lots of pretty high tech stuff that usually only special forces and elite units get)

[Morning Glory]

Hell I voted for him. Your raising taxes line is simply laughable...have you ever been or talked to people in places with real despots and dictators or countries where that is trulythe way much gets done? I've been lucky to gorw up and talk to those who did and visit the aftermath of those regimes...if you think Bush is on the same level with a tax hike then you really have no real world concept of what your trying to get across.

Real dictatorships function much more cruedly...and brutalize their people openly and without mercy.

Can you choose not to pay taxes? Of course not. Does that make it "essentially the same as it being taken"...nope...the process of a federal budget is a much bigger beast...so what is asked is not always given. Given the cost of modern war though...and the fact we're commited to one already...it's not exactly a shock more money is needed. Fine by me as long as the job gets done and the troops head back home as soon as can be.

In a dictatorship what is needed is simply taken ...be it resources, land, people, and money...though if you can bypass the need to pay for anything...why bother with it?

wait. what? I don't see how that has anything to do with what I said.
I don't see how me saying "raising taxes is not equal to facsist dictatorship" is laughable, in fact it seems to be the same thing that you're saying.

[ForrestBlack]

violence only breeds violence, forrest. how do you think those dictatorships were enforced? by a bunch of people getting together with guns, and more groups getting togther with guns to oppose them isn't going to solve the problem, it's just going to create it over and over again. the fact that each person having the ability to kill each other is considering being safe in this country, sounds like insanity to me.

I am aware that it sounds like insanity to you. That's ok. However, it is my view that so long as I obey the law, I am causing no problem by owning a gun. I am not advocating violence. If someone breaks into my house with intent to harm, they are perpetrating violence, and yes, in that case it may indeed breed a violent response. Your solution is to be a helpless victim? Your solution is that unlawful thugs should have a monopoly on threat? Your argument is a lot like saying I shouldn't have a car because some people drive drunk. Driving causes accidents, but I still want my freedom to go from place to place without walking for days. So, it's a risk I'm willing to take, in order to enjoy my freedoms. So, a group like the NRA should be all about safety and education, much like AAA should be about roadside assistance and the promotion of safer roads.

[Morning Glory]

ok. last post on this subject- that is taken out of context. I totally support peoples right to self defense, but as I initially said I think that the NRA goes beyond that and encourages people to go out of thier way to place themselves in situations so that they can use a gun, which i think is reckless and promotes irresponsible and hostile actions.

[23*]

Hmmm... I wonder if it's time for a new, possibly more centrist organization.

heard of R.A.Wilson's Guns & Dope Party?

[23*]

Shouldn't the question be why America has so many Homicides in the first place?

Granted Ireland is a small nation, here the police are unarmed and the Army probably carry replicate L2A3 Submachine guns and SteyrAUG assault rifles while on civic duty. Neverless Ireland's (And Britains) Homicide rate is negligible. The Swiss have hundreds of thousands of automatic weapons in their homes and they too have a negligible homicide rate. Canada anyone?

[Tequila Zaire]

Shouldn't the question be why America has so many Homicides in the first place?

Granted Ireland is a small nation, here the police are unarmed and the Army probably carry replicate L2A3 Submachine guns and SteyrAUG assault rifles while on civic duty. Neverless Ireland's (And Britains) Homicide rate is negligible. The Swiss have hundreds of thousands of automatic weapons in their homes and they too have a negligible homicide rate. Canada anyone?

Some say Population, others say Crime, a few say racial tension and how many are homicides in ethnic communities...of if your Michael Moore you have a long winded crap a film trying to disect it and end up with some horrid mess college kids and his fans masterbate to as truth...

Thing is...no one is really sure. Stat wise crime and homicide have gone down actually...reporting on said crime has risen. So that does help create a mountain out of a molehole at times...but ultimately you have a nation that is made up of " Hyphened Americans". The rest of the world sees Americans as well Americans...in the states if your not white well your "insert ethnicity" - American. It's usually not done maliciously...but it is incredibly stupid.

Little seperations like that build up...and unlike nearly each country you mentioned the U.S. is either bigger, more populated, or has a diversity level at least 5 times higher...In terms of Canada though...

I mean I love Canada and all...but it's just not the states...it's like Vanilla ice cream...it's good, safe, goes well with many things...but it's not all that bold. I always feel weird up there...like something is missing...it just feels.."off"

It's missing that explosive spark the U.S. has...sure we off each other now and again...but it's usually cops shotting minorities anyhow...factor that out and you'd have a murder rate on par with other nations of the same size. :P

The U.S. is usually put at the top of the heap even though not every nation releases such statistics. Plus you gotta factor in the kinds of crime you see in the states...street gangs and crime syndicates alone are a big factor. Unlike their European counterparts...they're much more prone to using "gun related violence". At least in terms of the countries you listed.

Here's the preliminary stats for 2004

I'm all for shipping L.A. Street Gangs to Canada though...hell I'll charter the first bus...they can send us...I dunno...more hockey teams.

The countries you listed simply don't have the ultra dense urban hellholes like L.A. and NYC either...I love em to death and all but even as bad as things have got in parts of Ireland it at least has areas of the nation that don't try to send itself to a blood filled oblivion...the U.S....not so much...with Murder capitals like New Orleans, D.C, Atlanta, and Detroit sporting over 100 murders a year...things get kinda bloody.

Though really a good chunk is in L.A. and NYC...so really it's their fault.

It's not so much the number of guns it's the need to use them...and if you're in certain trades in the U.S. you need them....regularly.

Yet given the population size of even those urban bloodbath zones...it's not THAT bad...what IS bad is they seem to occur in only certain areas that just happen to have the lowest number of cops on patrol and piss poor governmet support from the city to federal level.

I say the cities with low murder rates take some of the load off those with over 50....I think Berkeley, CA would make a fine home for the nearly 20,000 Asian street gang members L.A. has...it's in state AND it's a progressive minded city.

They'll take em right people? It's all about spreading the love right?

[Toe Cutter]

Guns don't kill people.
People with moustaches kill people...

[incog]

Very eloquent Forrest and Tequila. Guns are part of what keeps America free. I have a nice home I worked hard to be able to afford and part of my pursuit of happiness is knowing I could defend myself and what is mine if I had to. Also guns are sexy.

Ted Nugent is an idiot. Nobody of any age should give him sweet poon tang.

[One Eyed Cat]

To Arm:

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) asserts that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is
their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson

To Disarm:

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall."
- Adolf Hitler

OEC

"When the government fears the People, that is Liberty. When the People fear the Government, that is tyranny."
- Thomas Jefferson

"1935 will go down in History! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient and the world will follow our lead to the future!"
- Adolf Hitler

[One Eyed Cat]

JAMES MADISON:

(25) "THE Right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..." (James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789)

(26) "CONGRESS shall never disarm any citizen unless such as are or have been in Actual Rebellion." (James Madison)

(27) "AMERICANS have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms". (James Madison, The Federalist Papers, #46, at 243-244.)

(28) "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. ...Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper No. 46. at 243-244)

(29) "the ultimate authority...resides in the people alone," (James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper No. 46.)

Did you know.....

A Florida State University study indicates that law abiding citizens use handguns approximately 645,000 times a year in self-protection, with an additional 350,000 self-defense uses of rifles and shotguns. For thousands the possession and use of a firearm is the difference between being a victim of a violent crime and successfully thwarting a criminal attack. (The Firing Line, October 1991, Gary Kleck, criminologist, Florida State University)

I could go and on. Suffice it to say, the evidence is overwhelming as to the intent behind the second amendment. The PA Constitution even lists self-defense as a right and duty.

OEC

[TheDeathKnight]

There are two seperate issues with the gun control thing, and the problem is that they become intertwined when people start debating gun control.

The first main issue is guns for fun and recreation.
I think we all agree that we would have no problem with having special permits, and special areas, where people can blast away with machine guns, etc... As long as it is safe and controlled, most of us have no problem with it.

And most people have no problem about the idea of banning guns from the streets, getting them out of the hands of criminals, etc... If there is a way to get guns off the streets, but we can still use them recreationally, I think most people would be ok with that...

But the other issue is about an armed militia.
This is where it gets tricky.
See, most people, even gun people, would be ok with the idea of banning ALL guns, if it meant there would be no more gun crimes, no more gun violence, as long as we still had someplace to go and shoot guns if we want to shoot guns. But the problem with banning guns, is that you leave the population unarmed, in case the government ever goes too far. That was the plan of the founding fathers, behind the 2nd amendment. To make sure the population was armed, so that if some foreign invader came here, we would be armed. And if some internal government tried to take control, or a coup, or a rebellion, that the people would be able to defend themselves. So if you want to maintain that, you need to allow the people to keep guns...

Here is my idea of a utopian society's way of dealing with the issue...

You allow every household to keep a gun.
I believe in one scandanavian country, every person has to serve in the military,
and when they are done, they keep their gun at home. So every person in the
country is armed, and ready to fight if they have to... That would provide the
armed population that the founding fathers intended...

Then you would need to get rid of all the illegal guns.
Get rid of all the guns on the streets. All of them.
Ban all gun sales, gun collecting, and make the penalties for
selling illegal guns very severe.

Then provide places to go, where people can blast away with
any weapons they want to. Machine guns, etc... Allow plenty
of places for recreational shooting.

But I think the real problem in this country is not with guns.
It's with lack of law-enforcement.
Most guns that criminals use, are illegal to begin with.
They are stolen guns, illegal guns, etc...
So if they actually busted those people,
and kept those guns off the streets, and actually
put criminals in jail, then we would not have such
a big problem with gun crime. There are always going
to be wackos who will kill random people. In Japan,
there was recently a guy who went into a preschool
and started stabbing children. It would not matter
what weapon is used, when someone goes crazy...
What we need is better law-enforcement.
I have no problem with the police keeping everything
under control, and safe, as long as I have a place to go shoot...
And as long as we are allowed to keep a gun, so that if we are
ever invaded, or oppressed, that we can defend ourselves...

[ForrestBlack]

...And most people have no problem about the idea of banning guns from the streets, getting them out of the hands of criminals, etc... If there is a way to get guns off the streets, but we can still use them recreationally, I think most people would be ok with that...

I'm not so sure you can speak for most people on this point. I don't own a gun for fun and recreation, and I'm also not super comfortable with the idea that people should only be able to use modern firearms under strictly controlled 'recreational' circumstances. I think that you also have to be careful how you define criminal, as many countries call dissidents and vocal protesters criminals. I agree that you must make every effort to prevent crime, but if someone has done nothing wrong, you should not infringe on their rights. A broad statement such as keep guns off the streets frequently blankets totally law abiding gun owners that perhaps live in crime ridden areas.

(actually, I'm just irritable today, so maybe this isn't phrased as well as it could be. You DN, did allow for many of the same notions, so I don't mean to come accross as disagreable. I'm going to go lay down.)

[23*]

Some say Population, others say Crime, a few say racial tension and how many are homicides in ethnic communities...of if your Michael Moore you have a long winded crap a film trying to disect it and end up with some horrid mess college kids and his fans masterbate to as truth...

Thing is...no one is really sure. Stat wise crime and homicide have gone down actually...reporting on said crime has risen. So that does help create a mountain out of a molehole at times...but ultimately you have a nation that is made up of " Hyphened Americans". The rest of the world sees Americans as well Americans...in the states if your not white well your "insert ethnicity" - American. It's usually not done maliciously...but it is incredibly stupid.

Little seperations like that build up...and unlike nearly each country you mentioned the U.S. is either bigger, more populated, or has a diversity level at least 5 times higher...In terms of Canada though...

I mean I love Canada and all...but it's just not the states...it's like Vanilla ice cream...it's good, safe, goes well with many things...but it's not all that bold. I always feel weird up there...like something is missing...it just feels.."off"

It's missing that explosive spark the U.S. has...sure we off each other now and again...but it's usually cops shotting minorities anyhow...factor that out and you'd have a murder rate on par with other nations of the same size. :P

The U.S. is usually put at the top of the heap even though not every nation releases such statistics. Plus you gotta factor in the kinds of crime you see in the states...street gangs and crime syndicates alone are a big factor. Unlike their European counterparts...they're much more prone to using "gun related violence". At least in terms of the countries you listed.

Here's the preliminary stats for 2004

I'm all for shipping L.A. Street Gangs to Canada though...hell I'll charter the first bus...they can send us...I dunno...more hockey teams.

The countries you listed simply don't have the ultra dense urban hellholes like L.A. and NYC either...I love em to death and all but even as bad as things have got in parts of Ireland it at least has areas of the nation that don't try to send itself to a blood filled oblivion...the U.S....not so much...with Murder capitals like New Orleans, D.C, Atlanta, and Detroit sporting over 100 murders a year...things get kinda bloody.

Though really a good chunk is in L.A. and NYC...so really it's their fault.

It's not so much the number of guns it's the need to use them...and if you're in certain trades in the U.S. you need them....regularly.

Yet given the population size of even those urban bloodbath zones...it's not THAT bad...what IS bad is they seem to occur in only certain areas that just happen to have the lowest number of cops on patrol and piss poor governmet support from the city to federal level.

I say the cities with low murder rates take some of the load off those with over 50....I think Berkeley, CA would make a fine home for the nearly 20,000 Asian street gang members L.A. has...it's in state AND it's a progressive minded city.

They'll take em right people? It's all about spreading the love right?

you sure know your shit; impressive motherfucker that you are.

[One Eyed Cat]

I believe in the use of firearms for self-defense purposes. Obviously, they need to tighten the surveillance and punishment for criminals owning and using guns.

OEC

Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T. Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

[inox]

Part of being a criminal is not obeying the law. We know from the drug trade that it's still quite easy to obtain things in this country that are not only illegal, but are coming from points outside the U.S.

Washington D.C. is heavily restricted regarding firearms, with the common citizen not even permitted to keep one in their home.

How likely are you to take a bullet in SE DC?

[Morning Glory]

ok. ok. I guess i'll have to say more on this post- One Eyed Cat those qoutes by Adolph Hitler are famously used to defend gun ownership, however, historial investigations have proven that they are faslely attributed to him and there's no record of him ever having said that. The fact is that hitler made NO gun control laws, he simply enforced the gun control laws that where allready in place from the previous Weimar Republic government which was more or less created by america, so you can take that however you want to.

[One Eyed Cat]

The Nazi Weapons Law of 1938 replaced a Law on Firearms and Ammunition of April 13, 1928. The 1928 law was enacted by a center-right, freely elected German government that wanted to curb "gang activity," violent street fights between Nazi party and Communist party thugs. All firearm owners and their firearms had to be registered. Sound familiar? "Gun control" did not save democracy in Germany. It helped to make sure that the toughest criminals, the Nazis, prevailed.

The Nazis inherited lists of firearm owners and their firearms when they 'lawfully' took over in March 1933. The Nazis used these inherited registration lists to seize privately held firearms from persons who were not "reliable." Knowing exactly who owned which firearms, the Nazis had only to revoke the annual ownership permits or decline to renew them.

In 1938, five years after taking power, the Nazis enhanced the 1928 law. The Nazi Weapons Law introduced handgun control. Firearms ownership was restricted to Nazi party members and other "reliable" people.
The 1938 Nazi law barred Jews from businesses involving firearms. On November 10. 1938 -- one day after the Nazi party terror squads (the SS) savaged thousands of Jews, synagogues and Jewish businesses throughout Germany -- new regulations under the Weapons Law specifically barred Jews from owning any weapons, even clubs or knives.

I've never seen those quotes refuted, although it is possible.

OEC

[TheDeathKnight]

Forrest, most of my concepts there, only work in a utopian world....

In the *real* world, a whole different set of rules apply.

I really tend to lean towards the "armed society is a polite society" thinking...
But at the same time, I think if you allowed everyone to carry guns,
it would create new problems, while solving others. With crime,
for instance, rather than pull a gun to carjack someone, if the
criminals knew you were armed, they would probably just
shoot you, then take the car. Criminals adapt. So it might
create much more of a battleground scenario, like it is
in places like South Africa. With armed gangs of thugs
roaming the streets, and armed citizens in armored cars,
with flamethrowers, walled compounds, etc... I'm not
sure I want to escalate the arms race with the criminals.
I would rather just hand over my wallet, and call a cop...
At least I live. If we end up in a gun battle, one or both
of us could end up dead. Or a bystander. So yes, in the
world of real crime, I would rather see more police
who are out there doing their job, and more prisons,
and a better society overall. I'd like to see crime addressed,
but I am not so sure armed citizens will do the trick...

And again, the issue of crime, is a seperate issue from the
concept of an armed militia, to defend against invaders,
or against a corrupt government... Then again, it depends
what side you are on. I am sure the Iraqi insurgency are
all for allowing citizens to own weapons. So they can go
out at night, and use them against the US invaders.
I actually do not think that our government is "afraid"
of the us citizens. If the government decided to get rid
of dissidents, and "bad people", they would put on such
a great ad campaign, that most of the country would be
behind the government, and backing them up. The reason
they support or oppose gun rights, is only for votes. Regardless
if this country decides it wants guns, or does not want guns,
it still seems to remain a democracy. The politicians give
the people what they want. If most of them do not want
guns on the street, then it won't happen. If most of them
want guns, then we will have them.

[BrightStar]

NONONONONONO.
Most NRA members are reasonable. Ted is a bit over the top, yes, but its because he doesnt know any other way. HE WROTE A SONG CALLED WANGO TANGO and another called Wang bang Sweet Poon Tang.
Give the man a break, and dont assume that all members are like him
(An entire club of gun-toting metal stars? Scary)

That group would be called: Emperor's Children.






**

[Evilbink]

"I like guns, and guns like me"

[devil13]

"I like guns, and guns like me"

guns dont kill people, I do.