Excessive violence used in self defense. ( Regarding the Tampa Combichrist show )

[kellie]

In Tampa last weekend was the Combichrist/Manfuctura show. Carlos is the signer of Manfuctura, Andy is the singer of Combichrist. This is what happened at the Castle at the afterparty.
Carlos was totally out of control drunk, stealing the bartenders tips off the bar, and falling all over the place. He was all over everyone. He was pouring beer on everyone. Him getting kicked out was totally justifiable. When he was outside, he pulled the knife and made alot of loud threats, and swung the knife around. Security tackled him with a plastic garbage can, then used the item that boards the front door at night (Andy swears it was a 2x4) to hit him in the stomach. He fell down on the ground, Andy argued with the security gaurd that had the 2x4, while the other security guard held Carlos down. Then different security guards came out, and kicked him in the body and head until the cops came. He was then taken away. He sustained some bad injuries to his organs, head, and eye.

Now, its obvious that what Carlos did was stupid, illegal, and could have killed someone. But the security that came (after he was unarmed) and kicked him in the head until he had a fractured skull, eyesocket, and staples to the head should also be charged. IMO

Andy from Combichrist/Icon of Coil is making sure the Castle in Tampa gets no support from the industrial music scene, including artists, record labels, and hopefully patrons, until this issue gets resolved. And is asking for an apology from the management, and that the bouncers in question get fired, and charged.

Comments?

[Morning Glory]

well the arguement for self defense pretty much goes out the window when combined with the words " excessive violence". the key word is excessive, if someone is trying to punch you, you can't justifiabley shoot them and call it self defense. the amount of force is only acceptible to stop a threat on your life, if you continue beating an incapacitated person, then you are commiting assault and battery.

unfortunely this kind of thing happens very often when people are hired in such a position to be combatitive and use force agaisnt people, as opposed to people that are trained to respond with reasoning and negotiation skills. it's pretty obvious that the later has more far reaching prospect for crime prevention and saving lives, which is why they have people trained in things like hostage negotiation, instead of just using policeman ( or security guards) whose only skills are to slap cuffs on someone and take them away or to use violence against them if they don't comply.

[Tequila Zaire]

Fuck...tough situation since normally you kinda don't want this kind of situation to get so out of hand to begin with. What Carlos did was stupid and someone OTHER than the security guards should have tried to stop him...security like that is not known for being gentle...even less so on people who pull knives on em and have acted a fool. If he was already down for the count AND they continued with the beating...then yeah it was a overkill...I can see why given that anytime someone acts like that you want to beat em down.

It's sadly a case of someone doing something VERY stupid and peopel showing no restraint after the situation was taken care of. As far as leveling charges...well that would put Carlos in the line of fire too and given he was the instigator they could very well say they were operating in self defense of themselves and to protect those around them.

Tough situation that sounds like it went out of hand on both sides...

[Kidthorazine]

This has been all over LJ goth communities with people asking to donate bail money and shit I think thats really stupid at the moment the man in question is being held on charges of assault with a deadly weapon and while i agree that the amount of force used against him was a tad bit excessive it stands to reason that both pparties are equally guilty in this situation

[Evilbink]

Ok... this is from a bouncers point of view. Being one myself, I want to put in my two cents.

First off... their (bouncers) actions were inexcusable, and they should be dismissed and charged. Why? simple.. if they were employed at the venue to do security for the event then they had no business following Carlos outside.

Any decent bouncer knows that their job ends at the door, because the Venues insurance dosent cover them once they leave the building. Once they got him outside the building, it would be up to the local authorities to deal with him. They (Police) are the professionals, trained to handle these types of situations within the law. The Bouncers took it to a personal level, by involving themselves with him outside, instead of dropping a dime on him.

The Venue should also be held accountable, for hiring the idiots bouncers as well.

[Kidthorazine]

Ok... this is from a bouncers point of view. Being one myself, I want to put in my two cents.

First off... their (bouncers) actions were inexcusable, and they should be dismissed and charged. Why? simple.. if they were employed at the venue to do security for the event then they had no business following Carlos outside.

Any decent bouncer knows that their job ends at the door, because the Venues insurance dosent cover them once they leave the building. Once they got him outside the building, it would be up to the local authorities to deal with him. They (Police) are the professionals, trained to handle these types of situations within the law. The Bouncers took it to a personal level, by involving themselves with him outside, instead of dropping a dime on him.

The Venue should also be held accountable, for hiring the idiots bouncers as well.

I tottaly agree with this point but from accounts of the event i have read the guy attacked the bouncers once he was thrown out of course this doesnt excuse kicking the guy in the head several times when he was on the ground and disarmed but then again to be realistic a lot of times bouncers can get away with shit like that i have seen it happen several times

[Evilbink]

While I dont dispute that Bouncers do often go too far, it isnt what they are there for. Those that do cross the line are making it harder for the rest of us to get the job done. In this perticular incident ,as in other like it, the bouncer should have removed him from the venue, and then removed themselves from the situation as well. It is never a bouncers job to assualt or even to detain someone who is involed in a criminal act. They are there to protect the clients/customers ( and themselves), not to be crime fighters.

[Tequila Zaire]

Any decent bouncer knows that their job ends at the door...

Was not aware of that... changes my opinion on things. While I still think Carlos was out of line with his behaviour it does seem a booting from the place would have been enough..the bouncers going beyond their duties may have antagonized the situation and helped take it to a much more volitile level.

[funkatron]

Andy from Combichrist/Icon of Coil is making sure the Castle in Tampa gets no support from the industrial music scene, including artists, record labels, and hopefully patrons, until this issue gets resolved. And is asking for an apology from the management, and that the bouncers in question get fired, and charged.

I'm curious: will Andy be kicking Carlos off the tour too? And telling people not to support his band at all?

This sounds like (as it was described) a 50/50 situation, and I think it's hypocritical to call for a boycott against the club but still give support to a guy who sounds completely fucking out of control.

Personally, if what you describe is acurrate, this just ensured there's no way I will ever buy a CD or see a show with Carlos' band, or go to that club. But I doubt I'll be in Tampa anytime soon.

[TheDeathKnight]

Exactly... 50/50...

Carlos is a total idiot, and I do not feel sorry for what happened to him.
You pull a knife on bouncers, you get what happens to you.

But at the same time, I think the bouncers should be held accountable
for going overboard with the beating.

The two issues should not be tied together.
The club should address the issue with the bouncers,
and Carlos should take what was coming to him and learn not to do shit like that.

[kellie]

The biggest problem with the bouncers is this:
2 bouncers unarmed him with a garbage can, then knocked him in the stomach with the 2x4, ok he deserved that (IMO)
But then as they were holding him down waiting for the police, the rest of the security came outside and kicked him in the head until the cops came. Those security were not even witness to the knife incident. And Carlos was no longer a threat to anyone.

[funkatron]

Well, let's not call it 50/50 then. Better to view them independently.

1) Bouncers: out of line, excessive force, etc.
2) Carlos: crazy knife-wielding drunk

So #1 should be dealt with appropriately. So should #2. To raise a huge stink and try to turn #1 into a community boycott while not addressing #2 in a similar way seems hypocritical.

But hey, I wasn't there. Just going on the story I'm reading here.

[Evilbink]

Maybe I'm just too open minded, but personally I still fault the bouncers for most of the situation. There are ALWAYS drunks causing problems at shows. Thats why there are ALWAYS bouncers. It's the bouncers JOB to control the crowd and secure their safety and to protect the property of the venue. One any given hostile situation is under control, they are done. Any person who comes in after the fact and involves themselves (i.e. kicking a person in the head while they are on the ground) is making it personal, not professional. Even thought there is a HUGE diffrence between Police Officers and a bar bouncer, the expectations should be the same. You wouldn't expect a cop dealing with a hostile, to handcuff him and then give him the billy club dance.

Quite simply..the bouncers stepped out of their job, and into the land of OUT OF LINE. they made it personal and they should be treated as such.

Sorry.. this is a sensitive subject to me.

[funkatron]

I read what Andy wrote in the combichrist LJ, and I think I have a better understanding of this. I especially appreciate that he in no way cuts Carlos any slack for his actions.

I'm not defending the bouncers at all. OTOH, Carlos pulled a knife on them. In some states you can legally shoot a guy for doing that. Obviously they were within their rights to get him down. Kicking him in the head, tho, is obviously over the line.... but I can't say it's terribly surprising -- a lot of bouncers (not all) are ready-to-battle dudes, especially when someone is threatening their fellow bouncers.

Given all this... it's all hearsay. I believe Andy would not make up anything, but even he didn't see exactly what happened before Carlos pulled the knife. If Carlos has a legit legal beef, he should sue them for all they're worth, and let the courts sort it out.

[CPRB]

well I wasn't there, I dunno what happened only what Kellie says and I would like to read what Andy has to say, what you were mentioning Funakatron from his webpage....yes hello people I'm back fora quick few seconds. OK back to the whole story I am sure a bartender noticed this Carlos chap taking tips, that's theft. Chances are Carlos was on his way out the door for that anyhow and then the knife thing that was very stupid and alot of people could have been harmed including Andy. Carlos brough it on himself from what Kellie explains. People could have been shot as mentioned above. But the Theft of Money and waving around a knife sure doesn't give much right in the world of natural law. Seriously if some drunk dude was waving a knife and yelling at you what would you do? keep swinging till you felt that he was not going to get up and harm you and it can be amazing how much it takes to make a drunk person waving a knife stop waving a knife I have seen drunk girls take on 3 or four big sized bouncers, alcohol can make the inane..insane. was the the acts of the Bouncers questionable, yes, but really folks that's for a court of law to decide. I hope that the courts do not come to this website looking for evidence. I mean not many people are going to feel sorry for a guy stealing hardworking bartenders tips and getting fucked up and waving a knife.
Kellie, seriously I hope what you say is accurate becuase if the courts know about this website or Andy's they may use what is written as evidence. and I mean I am sure the bar was not top notch and was a lil darker then your avergae so these bouncers were use to people being jacked on stuff. I dunno a punk or goth/ indutrail bar that doesn't have pretty big dudes just for that reason you get some one full of booze and drugs and issues and you have a human timebomb. Andy could have been seriously hurt or killed, he's a good guy and I am sure he felt he had to help but was it worth it for what Carlos had done? No, and if something happened to Andy...ugghh not good. What Evilbanks says is also correct as far as from my experiences. I am just glad it wasn't more severe. I think though honestley be careful what you put up on the web..it has an amazing way of comming back at you from the wierdest angles.