Goths are blamed again...

[One Eyed Cat]

so i suppose all the skulls, and blood, and spikes, and razorblades, JTHM, vampires, horror movies, black humor, and such have no real place in the 'gothick' subculture?

or we've all just out grown them, and now only the hot topic crowd enjoys a good old fashioned Hammer Horror movie where Vincent Price tortures a top heavy actress to death in some ingenious fashion...

...it's all just a meditation, and reflection on the transience of life, and the inevivilbity of death, a reflection, the peace of the grave...

HORSESHIT!!!

when frustrated by life my pancake make, and mascara wearing buddies will frequently spout off about climbing a clocktower with a high powered rifle, or stabbing out the eyes of antagonists with surgical scalpels... it's as goth as jackolanterns dammit.

one of the princple attractions of the lifestyle is freaking out the locals, and then complaining that your just misunderstood, while fantasizing about clawing their pretty little faces with a set of lee presson knives... don't even bullshit and say it isn't. (oh maybe not for you... or anyone you know... surely no one here would eversay sucha thing )

yeah, people who do those things "aren't really gothik" ...i call bullshit on that!!!

An interest in death, vampires, horror movies, and black humor does not imply active violence. I base this on my experience with gothic scenes going back many years.

So yeah, acts of violence are not part of the gothic subculture. It is an aesthetic and lifestyle choice. While I am sorry you have had those experiences with certain people, I reiterate my stance.

Actual acts of violence were not part of any gothic scene I've been around. What one may "fantasize" about is a subjective experience. Unless you can demonstrate a higher than average propensity for violence amongst those who understand and love the gothic, I reject your argument outright.

You are entitled to your opinions, they simply do not mesh with my experience.

OEC

[Buster Friendly]

SUBtext... you know as in IMPLIED...

i reject your rejection outright. you're entitled to your opinion, and i respect that you believe you have a right to one. even if in this case YOU'RE WRONG.

goddamn.

vampires do not imply active violence... what part of ripping open someone's throat to drink their blood doesn't imply violence to you?

wait... don't even answer that one...

lie to yourself woman, but do not lie to me.

[One Eyed Cat]

SUBtext... you know as in IMPLIED...

i reject your rejection outright. you're entitled to your opinion, and i respect that you believe you have a right to one. even if in this case YOU'RE WRONG.

goddamn.

vampires do not imply active violence... what part of ripping open someone's throat to drink their blood doesn't imply violence to you?

wait... don't even answer that one...

lie to yourself woman, but do not lie to me.

I'm a guy not a girl. Whatever consensual bloodsports people engage in is neither here nor there. You have made no substantive argument here.

You have the right to be wrong as well (you are in the case) Anyways, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

OEC

[keiko]

OEC-
First I will dismiss the use of the phrase "gothic scenes" that is repetative in your posts. However!

--Vampires- in every movie and nearly every book I've seen that has vampires as hte main character CONSENSUAL is NOT part of the equation. Heck part of the appeal is the thrall you must be under to not feel the excruciating pain of having your flesh torn by teeth.

YOU may not occasionally feel the urge to squeeze some moron's neck till thier eyes pop or even throw a punch at some one being particularly obtuse but that would make you in the minority of HUMANS not just goths.

I can within an hr give you a 300-1 statistic of how many "goths" have a tendancy to fantasize about climbing a clock tower and offing people. Usually the expression of such is "If they ran into me in a dark alley would they be sorry".The number of people that have acted on these desires? At the moment, aside from the occasional fistfight, (which has it's own charms) NONE.

However if I had to pick one group of people with the HIGHEST rate of loathing for the human population at large it would be those poor people who work in retail, bless thier hearts.

Buster- arguing statistics is a moot point. And he can reject all he wants, he has the right. Even though I agree with you.

K (who can't take her own advice on 3 hrs of sleep and no coffee)

[One Eyed Cat]

OEC-
First I will dismiss the use of the phrase "gothic scenes" that is repetative in your posts. However!

--Vampires- in every movie and nearly every book I've seen that has vampires as hte main character CONSENSUAL is NOT part of the equation. Heck part of the appeal is the thrall you must be under to not feel the excruciating pain of having your flesh torn by teeth.

YOU may not occasionally feel the urge to squeeze some moron's neck till thier eyes pop or even throw a punch at some one being particularly obtuse but that would make you in the minority of HUMANS not just goths.

I can within an hr give you a 300-1 statistic of how many "goths" have a tendancy to fantasize about climbing a clock tower and offing people. Usually the expression of such is "If they ran into me in a dark alley would they be sorry".The number of people that have acted on these desires? At the moment, aside from the occasional fistfight, (which has it's own charms) NONE.

However if I had to pick one group of people with the HIGHEST rate of loathing for the human population at large it would be those poor people who work in retail, bless thier hearts.

Buster- arguing statistics is a moot point. And he can reject all he wants, he has the right. Even though I agree with you.

K (who can't take her own advice on 3 hrs of sleep and no coffee)

I don't have a better term than "scenes", although it is admittedly inaccurate. By consensual bloodsports, I am referring to people involved in Strigorii, Vampire Temple etc. I do not see how fictional accounts in movies is relevant.

I would agree that many may have such urges, but that does not qualify as a subtext of violence per se. Violence is an act. I would imagine those in retail may have similar fantasies at times.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

1. The implicit meaning or theme of a literary text.
2. The underlying personality of a dramatic character as implied or indicated by a script or text and interpreted by an actor in performance

The meaning of subtext. It would obviously apply to works of fiction and cinema, but I do not believe it should be correlated to folks with little propensity for actual violence.

Anyways, this is all ultimately irrelevant to the situation. A media frenzy tends to distort the truth (regardless of how one views underlying themes here)

OEC

[ForrestBlack]

OEC, your argument that the vast majority of Gothic identified people you (anecdotally) have contact with are non-violent, while this character was clearly violent, thus he mush not be associated with Gothic subculture... well, it's pretty textbook flawed logic. Particularly if you take all the evidence to the contrary into account. We may not want to claim this one as one of our own, but the fact of the matter is that although not ideal, he is one of our own.

Now, banning black trench coats would obviously be a completely pointless kneejerk 'solution' and about as effective as saving lives by killing all the stingrays, but he was still one of our own. Maybe they should throw the black clad strangers in the well and see if they float while they are at it. Oh, I suppose they tried that one already.

People who feel alienated from the dominant culture frequently take on 'scary' interests and attributes, but it isn't until they feel so put upon, so backed up against a wall, so devoid of the potential for a happy future, that they generally crack and start taking people out with them. In every one of these reportedly 'gothic' rampages, text and journals can be found where the perpetrators clearly complain that thy just can't take the abuse any longer. That 'popular' overculture has bullied them, taunted them, harassed them, etc. In pretty much every case, they have tried to alert a collection of authorities and have not gotten an active positive response.

So, it would be more realistic to accept the notion that deep within our Gothic culture (and other subcultures if you really break it down) is a certain dangerous panic button, and if pushed too far for too long, they might just lose their grip and go berserk (or at least kill a few choice representatives of what they see as the oppressive class.)

The only social change that can really effectively prevent this sort of outbreak is to teach people that they shouldn't be so abusive to other people they don't understand. That sometimes, people who have their limits of tolerance tested by bully abuse, who feel ignored by those who are supposed to provide the safetly net, sometimes they push back... hard.

[One Eyed Cat]

OEC, your argument that the vast majority of Gothic identified people you (anecdotally) have contact with are non-violent, while this character was clearly violent, thus he mush not be associated with Gothic subculture... well, it's pretty textbook flawed logic. Particularly if you take all the evidence to the contrary into account. We may not want to claim this one as one of our own, but the fact of the matter is that although not ideal, he is one of our own.

Now, banning black trench coats would obviously be a completely pointless kneejerk 'solution' and about as effective as saving lives by killing all the stingrays, but he was still one of our own. Maybe they should throw the black clad strangers in the well and see if they float while they are at it. Oh, I suppose they tried that one already.

People who feel alienated from the dominant culture frequently take on 'scary' interests and attributes, but it isn't until they feel so put upon, so backed up against a wall, so devoid of the potential for a happy future, that they generally crack and start taking people out with them. In every one of these reportedly 'gothic' rampages, text and journals can be found where the perpetrators clearly complain that thy just can't take the abuse any longer. That 'popular' overculture has bullied them, taunted them, harassed them, etc. In pretty much every case, they have tried to alert a collection of authorities and have not gotten an active positive response.

So, it would be more realistic to accept the notion that deep within our Gothic culture (and other subcultures if you really break it down) is a certain dangerous panic button, and if pushed too far for too long, they might just lose their grip and go berserk (or at least kill a few choice representatives of what they see as the oppressive class.)

The only social change that can really effectively prevent this sort of outbreak is to teach people that they shouldn't be so abusive to other people they don't understand. That sometimes, people who have their limits of tolerance tested by bully abuse, who feel ignored by those who are supposed to provide the safetly net, sometimes they push back... hard.

I can accept that he associated with his idea of the subculture to some extent. I believe these incidents to be less prevalent amongst us than a lot of other "groups", however. In retrospect, I may have overstated my case (I will never totally accept him as one of my own beyond the media's portrayal) I do see your point, however. The bullying is always a factor in these incidents. I think the panic button would apply to anyone under the circumstances (regardless of cultural preferences)

OEC

[Anarkey]

[Toe Cutter]

Metal-heads never do any dumb shit like that. Kind of makes you think, huh?

[Kidthorazine]

OEC, your argument that the vast majority of Gothic identified people you (anecdotally) have contact with are non-violent, while this character was clearly violent, thus he mush not be associated with Gothic subculture... well, it's pretty textbook flawed logic. Particularly if you take all the evidence to the contrary into account. We may not want to claim this one as one of our own, but the fact of the matter is that although not ideal, he is one of our own.

Now, banning black trench coats would obviously be a completely pointless kneejerk 'solution' and about as effective as saving lives by killing all the stingrays, but he was still one of our own. Maybe they should throw the black clad strangers in the well and see if they float while they are at it. Oh, I suppose they tried that one already.

People who feel alienated from the dominant culture frequently take on 'scary' interests and attributes, but it isn't until they feel so put upon, so backed up against a wall, so devoid of the potential for a happy future, that they generally crack and start taking people out with them. In every one of these reportedly 'gothic' rampages, text and journals can be found where the perpetrators clearly complain that thy just can't take the abuse any longer. That 'popular' overculture has bullied them, taunted them, harassed them, etc. In pretty much every case, they have tried to alert a collection of authorities and have not gotten an active positive response.

So, it would be more realistic to accept the notion that deep within our Gothic culture (and other subcultures if you really break it down) is a certain dangerous panic button, and if pushed too far for too long, they might just lose their grip and go berserk (or at least kill a few choice representatives of what they see as the oppressive class.)

Ive seen no real evidence that this guy was actually associated with the gothic sub-culture, he was a metalhead that had a profile on vampire freaks, to me he just like any other nu-metal fan which has nothign to do with the goth sub-culture.

[Toe Cutter]

WHAT! He was NOT a metalhead!

He maybe throwing some horns in that photo, but throwing horns does not a metalhead make.

[LoraLie]

I think the panic button would apply to anyone under the circumstances (regardless of cultural preferences)

OEC

Exactly.

Dont blame 'goths' or 'metal heads' (or any other damn label he wished to put himself under, or others want to put him under) just because one nut job decided to do something stupid.

[Kidthorazine]

WHAT! He was NOT a metalhead!

He maybe throwing some horns in that photo, but throwing horns does not a metalhead make.

he lsited lots of metal and nu-metal in his VF profile, and not a single goth band, so yes i would have to assume he was a metal head or at least a nu-metal head.

[Toe Cutter]

Oh my, that's a shame. I didn't know that. He must be a nu-metalhead then. Did he list limp-bizkit? I bet he did...

[Kidthorazine]

i dont remmeber, but he had issues anyway, the kind of music he listend to is completely irrevelant in reality, although i guess someone who is predisposed to the type of behaviour he exhibited might be more inclined to listen to more violent music like metal, but i dont think that metal influenced him to do what he did.

[Mr Karl]

not only that, he was also 25 years old, so he wasn't some bullied kid, and really should have been passed the point of needing to identify with a particular subculture or whatever. The thing that buggs me is nobody knows what he did for a living, where he lived, or anything really about his life except what he wrote wich was basicaly a load of shit. the only information is his mother saying he was a nice boy.

[TheDeathKnight]

I looks like the high risk behavior they need to look out for, is taking lots of polls...

[ForrestBlack]

I looks like the high risk behavior they need to look out for, is taking lots of polls...

Yeah, but I blame glitter-text, It's like the Angel Dust of web 2.0.

[Billy_longbrownhair]

It pisses me off when Goth's are blamed for this stupid shit. Let's face it, Gothic is attractive. To me anyway. And I have never met a Goth that seemed ready to devour the room or theater or party for that matter with ugly brute force. I have seen some scary goths but that's a story for another night. Anyway. It's not the Goths, the Blacks, the Caucasion, nor the Glock, AR15's and the Chinese AK-47"s. It's people, young and old, who go over the edge and bang.

Better see what their wearing Sgt....

[TheDeathKnight]

The real answer is that there are psycho people in all segments of society.

There are peaceful christians, and serial killer christians.
There are peaceful muslims, and suicide bomber muslims.
There are peaceful goths, and columbine goths.
There are peaceful gangsters, and criminal gangsters.
There are peaceful stock brokers, and workplace shooters.

They might be wearing black, they might be wearing a suit.
They might have just left a Slipknot concert, they might have
just left church.

But people of all races, all backgrounds, and all types, can all go nuts,
and kill people, if they have the right situation...

It's just that the media has something to talk about, when it's a goth.
When it's a churchgoing, normal person who flips, all they can say is:
"We never saw it coming... he was so normal..."
And that gets old. But they can talk about devil worship,
the influence of goth music, violent video games, etc...

[Mr Karl]

yep close to 6 billion potential ticking bombs out there

[keiko]

"I play violent video games! I could snap at any moment!"

(thank you Gabe and Tycho)

K

[Jax]

Yeah I heard on the news they described him as a goth guy who wore a trenchcoat and had a mohawk. Where the fuck is the mohawk??

[OliX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZCWfD-RGso

doesn't fit the topic but well.... it fits it ironicaly

[Lady Alias]

I have to take OEC's side here. Maybe I'm just in the minority of a minority here as well, but I personally have never dreamed or fantasized about offing someone. I'm also not a person who finds violence entertaing unless it involves a hot chick in latex.

[Lady Alias]

Seems like everyone is getting into the fad.
http://www.ecanadanow.com/us/2006/09...ting-update-3/

[Mr Karl]

old news now...funny how that happens