Punk sucks.

[Caligula]

Am I the only one that thinks punk's one countercultural sacred cow that's overdue a visit to the abattoir?...

[Amelia G]

I think it is past my bedtime because, ooh boy, am I getting some grisly mental images from your statement. Raise your hand if you've seen Doom Generation.

I saw an interview with Billy Idol years ago in an early issue of Spin, back when the writing for that mag was really fresh. The interviewer challenged him on how he could still be punk. Billy Idol then (perhaps apocryphally, perhaps not) smashed the interviewers tape recorder.

The problem with "punk" or "gothic" or any of those sorts of labels is that they get coopted faster and more thoroughly with the vast reach of today's corporate media. If I had to pick just one subculture identification on a multiple choice test, I would check the punk box. But what that means to me has dickall to do with anything sold by a major record label or any of those fake "indie" sites clogging up the web now.

[PaulCat]

It's all a matter of personal opinion, just because i think that certain bands suck donkey b&*ls, they'll be another guy out there that thinks they're the best thing ever.

They might start listening to s%*t, and then go look for other punk bands and run into a decent one!

and it doesn't get much more Punk than Billy Idol! i kinda grew up listening to him, so i might be a little bias there...

Anyways, my fave bands now are very different to what they were 10 years ago, some are the same, but the vast majority of my CD collection from then have either been sold or are being used as coasters.

i overheard a couple of kids talking about proper punk, and mentioning busted... (Yeah, i burst out laughing too!)

i didn't lecture them, i didn't have the heart, plus i really dont know what i'm talking about, i bought a limp biskit album once so i can safely assume i know sod all about good music.

Okies, i've finished ramblng... in the mood for a bit of old style Offspring now, Moto!

[incog]

What do you think the next corporate fad will be if punk is done with?

[KilLAtomiK]

What do you think the next corporate fad will be if punk is done with?

that emo crap kids be listening to nowadays?

[ForrestBlack]

that emo crap kids be listening to nowadays?

I'm not convinced that that stuff was ever real in the first place, but that's just my point of view. Some marketing genius figured out a formula to include a taste of the emotional appeal of Gothic music, without the threatening evil undertones and mix it with some of the less threatening trappings of punk fashion and cliche rebellion.

[Caligula]

I'm well aware that this thread is guilty of the most sweeping generalisation on my part, but I don't think punk's 'untouchable' status is healthy. As someone who's looked into countercultural history I was struck by how certain labels - like punk or industrial - were almost universally lauded, while others - say goth or metal - are almost invariably looked down upon both by the mainstream and the underground's self-appointed arbiters of cool.

Punk wasn't as original or grass roots as its mythologists would have us believe. It started as a middle class art school rebellion, while the Sex Pistols were every bit as manufactured as the Backstreet Boys. I certainly like some of the bands - the Misfits and the Damned for example - but I think they would have come through regardless, and are more to do with death rock than punk. If punk launched several interesting bands, it also sunk some damn good ones. When I was in my teens, way back in the 80s, the music I liked was the raw, passionate NWoBHM stuff. All of that was on small independent labels, while punk - supposedly this anti-establishment rebellion - was enjoying all of the perks of big label backing. Ironic? Hypocritical perhaps? You betcha.

I've never agreed with punk's DIY ethos. If I want someone to fix my toilet, I don't want someone who's willing to have a go, I want a trained plumber, and the same's true of what I demand from a musician who's trying to sell me an album. Back in the day, punk was largely about bad music and bad hygiene, neither of which have ever done much for me. These days, it's turned into everything it was supposed to be against - it's as much a part of 'the establishment' as the Queen.

There again, maybe I'm just applying a little punk attitude to punk itself...

[SUSIEQ502]

Although everybody has a right to their own opinions..."countercultural sacred cow"...COME ON!!!
All I can say is people who hate on a type of music are usually trying to fit themselves into a stereotype of another, usually. Just because you can't relate to a type of music, or don't care for it, why hate it and on those who FUCKING LOVE IT AND DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT THE HELL YOU THINK!

[ForrestBlack]

I don't think it's really a matter of hating it, just questioning it's status in relation to other subcultures. I don't like the things that get called Punk these days very much, but then again, I think it's possible to pay too much attention to what rack the record is shelved on and not enough attention to the content of the record itself. The question strays from the appropriate 'Do I enjoy this' into the more subjective 'Is this a good example of what it is trying to sell itself as' and that's where I think the problems begin.

[Caligula]

Although everybody has a right to their own opinions..."countercultural sacred cow"...COME ON!!!
All I can say is people who hate on a type of music are usually trying to fit themselves into a stereotype of another, usually. Just because you can't relate to a type of music, or don't care for it, why hate it and on those who FUCKING LOVE IT AND DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT THE HELL YOU THINK!

Cogently argued and eloquently put.

I don't happen to believe everybody has a right to their opinions. I think people have a right to opinions they can back up with reasoned argument.

Of course I'm well aware the thread was going to be provocative, but the purpose of that is an exchange of ideas whereby folks might learn a thing or two, myself most definitely included. It certainly wasn't my intention to wound anyone, and if you can't discuss your musical taste without throwing a tantrum, it's time to take a step back and get a little perspective.

There are exhibitions of punk 'art' at the ICA, Johnny Rotten's a California real estate magnate, tourists buy punk postcards from London, the journalists who rode on punk's coat-tails write columns for nasty rightwing tabloids. Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?...

[ForrestBlack]

...Johnny Rotten's a California real estate magnate...

Hahaha... Punk, the eternal struggle not to be middle class, one way or another.

[Drakken]

Personally I think that its all about clothing. Thees no 'lifestyle' unique to 'punk' or 'goth' itself unless you wander around in a cape pretending to drink blood. Thats still not 'goth' per say thats vampires where as if you walk around acting perpetually drunk/high (maybe some actually are) dressed in spikes, plaid, bondage clothes thats associated with 'punk' even though enough 'goth' types also wear bondage clothing too. (ironic?)

Musical taste is a personality trait. Attitude (you can be a gothic asshole as easily as a prep or punk or emo kid.)

I've seen some stupdi things done in ALL of these sub cultures. Punk kids talking with fake brit-eurotrash accents, and goth kiddies who look like a poorly executed hallowe'en costume all in the name of being 'hardcore'

[Caligula]

I've seen some stupdi things done in ALL of these sub cultures. Punk kids talking with fake brit-eurotrash accents, and goth kiddies who look like a poorly executed hallowe'en costume all in the name of being 'hardcore'

I'd never heard that about the accents That's priceless. I suspect we're all a little affected one way or another. The British equivalent is rap and hip hop fans putting on corny American ghetto speak. It doesn't quite work when your 'hood' is Basingstoke or Skegness.

I confess a certain weakness for the 'every day is Halloween' ethos, though it can look pretty ludicrous. I've got to say the Goth look can be sexy as hell on the right lady. I suspect one of the subconscious roots of Goth comes from kids like me who grew up on Hammer horror flicks which just seemed so sensuous that given the opportunity, it would've been great to just jump through the screen and live there. Maybe goth clubs are just a good second best to that.

[Runs for cover - fearing another outbreak of the dreaded 'what is goth' debate...]

[Jasperino]

Look, if thirteen year old kids wanna listen to yellowcard and think they're being hardcore, who cares? My hope is that it will open the door to some old black flag, stains or danzig era misfits. We all have to start somewhere. People would say the offspring aren't real punk but they are the band that got me interested. Corporate punk will die eventually but real punk, goth, etc..as always, will endure.

[SUSIEQ502]

Classifications of what a certain music sound falls into are comparable to personal stereotypes in that they rarely fit.

There is an advantage to the commercialized punk scene, $$$ for musicians. Bands are making real money putting out music that I can stomach most of, while also opening the avenue of royalty checks to the originators of punk for records made long ago and would otherwise be forgotten. True old school punks had it tough and never made shit. The new wanna be NOFX punk is just socially more acceptable. If calling an entire style of music "one countercultural sacred cow that's overdue a visit to the abattoir" is what you call reasonable arguement, then I guess I'm ignorant to what reason is. A tantrum involves heightened emotions and unreasonable and irrational behavior, sorry if you misunderstood my laughing as giving a fuck about what you think.
DISCO SLAYER WITH EAZY-E PEOPLE

[Drakken]

Look, if thirteen year old kids wanna listen to yellowcard and think they're being hardcore, who cares? My hope is that it will open the door to some old black flag, stains or danzig era misfits. We all have to start somewhere. People would say the offspring aren't real punk but they are the band that got me interested. Corporate punk will die eventually but real punk, goth, etc..as always, will endure.

W00t

[pedar]

What do you think the next corporate fad will be if punk is done with?

Friend -that's the whole point--!
(LaVey is laughing somewhere)
P.

[pedar]

Am I the only one that thinks punk's one countercultural sacred cow that's overdue a visit to the abattoir?...

And wasn't that the whole idea to begin with-Up the abattoir!!!P.

[Caligula]

And wasn't that the whole idea to begin with-Up the abattoir!!!P.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I have a weird feeling that you just might be right.

[Jax]

Punk is dead.

[CPRB]

all I can say is...smeh, seriously, I dunno why this debate exist? or why? Music is subjective as is life. I grew up imeressed in the early 80's Hardcore attitude, especially Bad Brains and Minor Threat. I dunno but I think I posted somewhere maybe it was a rant..but I so despise Mr.Maclaren, he used the pistols to sell his clothes, just like, Vans, Atticus, addidas, and wahtever else do it with modern bands throiugh sponsor ship. I have some very unpopular beliefs about the modern punk attitude and the fashion....but one memory sticksn in my mind there use to be akid in our scene who lived in an amazing area of town he had a big nice house and pool everythig he could ever need yet he despised it all and lived on the streets, as akid who's folsk struggled to keep me fed and happy I could not understand it....and it seems to appeal to the surburbinite kid, money to blow on piercings and tattoos and clothes and little to spend on intelligence, self respect and a lively life with love....but I can understand the need to run living in a nieghbourhood of false pretenses,everyone has a path to walk and journey to endure...I guess I wish people would realistically endure them. Not only that but I thought it was supposed to be for the outcast and unheard....I was an outcast when Iwalkedin and I am an outcast as I walk out....all I can do is be me...cause nothing else seems to be real

[darki]

punk's not dead...
....Jesus is dead.

[Amelia G]

all I can say is...smeh, seriously, I dunno why this debate exist? or why? Music is subjective as is life. I grew up imeressed in the early 80's Hardcore attitude, especially Bad Brains and Minor Threat. I dunno but I think I posted somewhere maybe it was a rant..but I so despise Mr.Maclaren, he used the pistols to sell his clothes, just like, Vans, Atticus, addidas, and wahtever else do it with modern bands throiugh sponsor ship. I have some very unpopular beliefs about the modern punk attitude and the fashion....but one memory sticksn in my mind there use to be akid in our scene who lived in an amazing area of town he had a big nice house and pool everythig he could ever need yet he despised it all and lived on the streets, as akid who's folsk struggled to keep me fed and happy I could not understand it....and it seems to appeal to the surburbinite kid, money to blow on piercings and tattoos and clothes and little to spend on intelligence, self respect and a lively life with love....but I can understand the need to run living in a nieghbourhood of false pretenses,everyone has a path to walk and journey to endure...I guess I wish people would realistically endure them. Not only that but I thought it was supposed to be for the outcast and unheard....I was an outcast when Iwalkedin and I am an outcast as I walk out....all I can do is be me...cause nothing else seems to be real

If someone's parents live in a big house with a pool and phat cash and they live on the street, there is some serious pain that they have to deal with. It sounds cliche, but I think, if your parents loved you and struggled to give you everything you needed, you may in a real sense have been waaaaaaaaaaaay better off than the gutter punk with rich parents.

[-=Asmodeus=-]

What do you think the next corporate fad will be if punk is done with?

Disco will make a come back...I am completely prepared for it..I have all the arsnic I would ever need to wipe out an entire disco club should one ever open...All I have to do is get a bartending job...

Music styles die out for a reason..Just like the dinosaurs and Elvis....

[Nautilus]

Punk rock boys make my dick hard

[CPRB]

AMelia I totally agree, but the thing is, his parents were totally cool and his brother is a rad guy too....it was like you can't have those ideas and live where you live whihc is just silly....I can understand why it happens and so on and soforth....I dunno...t be honest it's a debate I don't really feel like wasting my heart on anymore because I know who I am....and I know where things are and it just really doesn't matter unless a person doesn't know where the stand or who they are....I am just going to be me if people are cool to me...wow aewsome....if not no big deal...

[CPRB]

oh yeah and everything is an envolution it revolves..I think in some wasy right now is ver losely like the 80's when skateboarding and punkrawk were big...so lemme see....looks like new wave then were going to have hair bands and then malls bands like NKOTB then something like grunge then back to punk.....serioulsy I feel dizzy

[publicharakiri]

I love punk, im addicted to it. love the additude love the music (esp oldschool music in the days that goth and punk used to be the same)

[Slave326667]

I really try to stay away from these debates over music for good reason, mostly because people grow up different, and have different prefferences on every subject there is... unless you're a mindless drone-child of the new century. But see, the point I'm trying to make, is that music is a pointless argument. You can never actually prove that (this) genre sucks ass, and (this) genre is the dope-ass shit. For example: I like to listen to a little classical now and then... not too many people would jump up and yell "WOO! CHAMBER MUSIC IS THE SHIT!!! BOW DOWN FUCKERS!" But I listen to it anyways, because I enjoy it as an individual. So the argument itself, is indeed pointless... well, unless you're just bored, and want to talk about music... thats different... uhm... why did I write all this?...*cough*

[franziska]

I think the thing with punk is that it DID get thrown into the mainstream. Everything has been (or will soon be) thrown into the mainstream in some way or another. Yes, this changes it a bit, but what happens after it's suddenly "uncool"? Everyone goes away, except those that are really interested in it. What's wrong with a little new blood?

It happens everywhere; it happened to punk, it happened to goth, it happened to "hip hop culture". *wretches at mere mention, and heavily apologizes* Watching my younger sister and her friends, who are very concious of trends, I think it's slipping away towards more of an earth-child/bohemian look. It should be a while before punk and goth are once again in the spotlight.

[pedar]

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I have a weird feeling that you just might be right.

hey trust those 'weird feelings'..P.

[pedar]

oh yeah and everything is an envolution it revolves..I think in some wasy right now is ver losely like the 80's when skateboarding and punkrawk were big...so lemme see....looks like new wave then were going to have hair bands and then malls bands like NKOTB then something like grunge then back to punk.....serioulsy I feel dizzy

Skateboarding is huge even now in So. Calif..P.

[pedar]

Punk rock boys make my dick hard

Honey we're glad to hear it..P.

[Kidthorazine]

Punk hmmm punk is fun if it was recorded before 1989 or so but i respect punk because it was a precognitor to the goth scene I love today

[CPRB]

yeah I know it is it is everwhere dude..shaggy haired sakters everywhere dude oh dude man you gotta beleve in all the skate dudes DUDE! hehhe oh yeah I know..serioulsy that's how I get my frustration out when painting or drawing wont

[pedar]

yeah I know it is it is everwhere dude..shaggy haired sakters everywhere dude oh dude man you gotta beleve in all the skate dudes DUDE! hehhe oh yeah I know..serioulsy that's how I get my frustration out when painting or drawing wont

okay bro- er um- -DUDE! P.

[CPRB]

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuddddddeeeeeeeeee!

[memorydream]

Well, everyone tells me it's dead. So, what's the big deal?

[pedar]

Well, everyone tells me it's dead. So, what's the big deal?

Well it will probably never 'die' -since all the adherents of it are claiming that they are the 'pure' version- and everyone else is a watered down poseur...It's like attaining the Holy Grail- everyone is punker than thou..
P.

[memorydream]

Well it will probably never 'die' -since all the adherents of it are claiming that they are the 'pure' version- and everyone else is a watered down poseur...It's like attaining the Holy Grail- everyone is punker than thou..
P.

There was a "punk" band from Norway that called Goth chicks "New Wave Hooker Girls," which I thought was funny. Of course, the Dead Milkmen had that great song coining them "Art Fags." I thought it interesting that both bands had openly gay and bi-sexual members, new wave hooker girlfriends and a few goths. Once you get that "holy grail" from the fischer king, it's like you don't care anyway (goth, rebel country, punk or electronica).

"Rock is dead they say...long live rock!"
-The Who