Whoops! 100,000 Dead?

[Tequila Zaire]

The following article is making the rounds and one is bound to hear more about it in the coming days...in a nutshell it seems 100,000 civilians (mainly Women and Children...cause saying People just doesn't sound as tear jerking) may be pushing up daises as a result of this grant liberation...now the study admits a few difficulties in gather information. You know...war zone and what not...and one does have to wonder how accurate the numbers are in relation to U.S. Air Strikes...not that I'd be surprised cause it seems the public at large failed physics and forgot bombs explode...in all directions and given Iraqs...well...LESS than rigid building code Tijuana firecracks could probably kill off half a city under the right conditions. Is this tragic? To a degree...since you gotta add in the fact casualties stem from more than just air strikes...it's a violent place so why anyone is shocked people are falling into early graves is anyones guess.

Here's the article.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/28/news/toll.html


The funny part about it though is the statement about less people dying before this liberation/distraction/war/whatever the buzz word is for the week.

" Iraqis were 2.5 times more likely to die in the 17 months following the invasion than in the 14 months before it."

Ok now I may nots of gots me ultra fancy book learnin but I can smell someone fucking with numbers. Once you start using shit like that to guage important statistics...one may be less inclined to accept them at face value. Why not say...

" Iraqis were 2.5 times more likely to die in the 17 months following the invasion than in the 5 months before it."

Doesn't have the right ring huh? It SOUNDS fake liek that. They couldn't use 17 cause it wouldn't add up...16 is too close to 17...15 is the mimimum you need to have a saftey net in the numbers...so 14 is the magic number for all this to sound oh so legit. Do they honestly think we're this stupid?

Say what you will and take whatever side you wish but if you start to use the same tricks as those you are fighting against...what are you really fighting for? You've BECOME what you condemn.

Stuff like this litters the net, papers, and just about anything else where statistics are needed...be it roundingup...or scewing numbers based on statistical mathmatics.

That put aside...have civilians been fucked over in Iraq? Yup...is it a tragedy to see innocent kids and mommys get blown to kingdom come by grade A american explosives....fuck no. Why you may wonder? Cause no matter what the case is...war...peace...Fifa qualifiying match...the Butcher's Bill has to be paid...and as much as we like to think it's a cabal of old white people in suits sitting around a Dr. Strangelove table smoking cigars and saying "oh well we killed some people today"...it's not...civilians...non-combatents...are always...and always have been Kids, Women, and the Elderly. It's a fact of life. Unavoidable, unstoppable, and the less teary eyed we get about it the more people will live...because the less emotion involved the better. Not saying oen must be a cold hearted bastard...but ones heart cannot factor in cleaning up a vast mess like say Iraq...think about it...death didn't show up on the heels of the invasion...it was their daily...and many have to remember that in nations like pre-war Iraq...not every death is recorded, cataloged, and put in a lil book...not everyone does mass murder in the german way as it where (Nazi Germany...cause I know some of you get pissy about that).

100,000 dead...I won't be losing sleep, I won't weep or pray for them...cause that would be crueler than their deaths. The world can't start caring about people after they die...

You either do that BEFORE they die or don't do it at all. And lets face facts...no one gave a fuck about these people...from U.S. Sanctions, UN Corrupted Food for oil, Saddam and his mid-east equivalent of Good ole' Boys...and you, me, and the guy down the street. Where were all these anti-war peace loving fucks when the bullets and bombs were not falling but people were still dying? Where was this vast liberal movement for diplomacy and care when it was not working? where was this right wing patriotism when they tried to make getting a blowjob equal a crime like Nixon?

Graves were filling up in Rawanda, Iraq, and now the Sudan... We like to think we care, we like to say we care, and we like to rationalize that because we're informed it makes things a bit better...it doesn't. So don't weep for the dead or use it as an excuse to build up your ideals and political idealogy...too much of our history and problems is built on the bones of the dead ..it's a nasty habit we need to break.

I still sleep good at night though...none of us are Atlas and all...but we can't keep getting all passionate and alive about these important human problems and they just simply talk about what's wrong and why's it's wrong...the price is getting too high for that. Not saying one should join the peace corps or start a revolution...but at the very least...and I mean VERY least...one should be honest about how much they really care about the world around them.

Cause it's pretty plain to see...that the ones people complain about the most...are the only ones doing anything about it.

That said...bring on the next 100,000...and add puppies to those statistics...cute dead stuff always pulls at the heart.

[Forestghost]

Y'know what I have to say to what you just wrote?

AMEN TO THAT!!!!!!

How stupid can this world get? (I think we are observing the answer to that)
How close are we to imploding and causing world-wide human (or life) extinction? Probably closer than we would like to think.

People look at death-tolls and think "oh, what a pity"...but they don't want to look at it in the face. They don't want to be a part of it until it is all over.

I wonder if we will kill ourselves in this generation, or the next?

[BrightStar]

The people are probably just acting concerned for PR stuff.

[Morning Glory]

I care. I always cared. but it's people who say shit happens, and other patriotic ( read: economic bullshit disguised as patriotism), let's go back to busines as usual ( which is wholesale slaughter, and it's a booming business) that disables me to do anything about it, other than what I do do day to day which is stop funding this shit. the united states spend billions of tax dollars to kill these people, and I can say that i didn't help, cuz I didn't give those fuckers any of mine.

[Nightingale]

I also cared, right from the start. I vented my anger elsewhere when the US government publicly said they weren't going to give figures for deaths outside the military because it simply wasn't important; rather the same as them not giving figures for suicides within the military, because it simply isn't important.

For not important read: it would show our true face.

[Tequila Zaire]

I care. I always cared. but it's people who say shit happens, and other patriotic ( read: economic bullshit disguised as patriotism), let's go back to busines as usual ( which is wholesale slaughter, and it's a booming business) that disables me to do anything about it, other than what I do do day to day which is stop funding this shit. the united states spend billions of tax dollars to kill these people, and I can say that i didn't help, cuz I didn't give those fuckers any of mine.

I don't buy the disableing you from doing anything part...that's simply an excuse and a well used one. If a person really cares about anything or wants to change it...they do it. It may not turn out the way they imagine...but action is the only way to cause any sort of change...even if it's only a small lil ripple.

As far as not funding it...how so? Cause it's hard not to live in the western world and not fund the actions of our collective governments.

[Tequila Zaire]

I also cared, right from the start. I vented my anger elsewhere when the US government publicly said they weren't going to give figures for deaths outside the military because it simply wasn't important; rather the same as them not giving figures for suicides within the military, because it simply isn't important.

For not important read: it would show our true face.

And that start was when exactly? I ask that cause I always here it but it's usually attributed to when they first heard about it on the news as opposed to finding out about it BEFORE it hit the mass media. That's not a jab so don't take it as an shady insult...what I'm getting at is more often than not we don't look past our own lives and while it's to be expected...it really does make one late to the party most of the time.

It's good to react to what you hear and all but that's kinda the problem...people react after the events take place. It's easy to be pissed that way ...it's easy to blame that way...it's eay to simply feel like you're doing something by caring when in reality...it does nothing.

like it was touched above...feeling disarmed may make one unable to actually change things completely...but that's all it is...a feeling. If history teaches us anything...one person can change the world around if and ONLY if they actually go do something in spite of that disarmed feeling.

[BrightStar]

I don't buy the disableing you from doing anything part...that's simply an excuse and a well used one. If a person really cares about anything or wants to change it...they do it. It may not turn out the way they imagine...but action is the only way to cause any sort of change...even if it's only a small lil ripple.

As far as not funding it...how so? Cause it's hard not to live in the western world and not fund the actions of our collective governments.

Tax write-offs?

[Nightingale]

And that start was when exactly? I ask that cause I always here it but it's usually attributed to when they first heard about it on the news as opposed to finding out about it BEFORE it hit the mass media. That's not a jab so don't take it as an shady insult...what I'm getting at is more often than not we don't look past our own lives and while it's to be expected...it really does make one late to the party most of the time.

It's good to react to what you hear and all but that's kinda the problem...people react after the events take place. It's easy to be pissed that way ...it's easy to blame that way...it's eay to simply feel like you're doing something by caring when in reality...it does nothing.

like it was touched above...feeling disarmed may make one unable to actually change things completely...but that's all it is...a feeling. If history teaches us anything...one person can change the world around if and ONLY if they actually go do something in spite of that disarmed feeling.

I served in the first Gulf War and I've been in various others around the world. I knew when the announcements were first made that there would be high civilian casualties, just as much as I doubted vehemently the reasons for this war. My caring for the civilian side and for the reasons for going to war, and for the toll it would bring on the various military personnel sent under (what are for me now clearly) false pretenses began at this point.

My caring for the number of civilians began directly with the invasion of Afghanistan, when wedding parties were destroyed from great distances by anonymous orders from above, or by pilots who didn't seek the orders but merely assumed.

My open venting began before the US government announced that the figures of Iraqi civilians and soldiers killed were unimportant, but was fueled by this announcement. On the suicides within the military, at the time of the announcement.

I know of others who only react once they hear it in the media, or react only the slightest thing (judging before all the facts are in) which seems as if it might be right, in some way. I have always tried (sometimes successfully) to base my own reactions both on information and on experience, specifically my own experiences. In this case I have been right (the war against Iraq), although I am the first to admit, that is not always the case.

[Nightingale]

That's not a jab so don't take it as an shady insult....

I debate many things with many people, and always try to hear their side of an argument (devil's advocate or honest belief). I have long since stopped assuming that anything contrary to my opinion is an attack against me. Feel free to jab and stab and query as much as you wish, it's what makes a debate / discussion enjoyable.

[Morning Glory]

I don't buy the disableing you from doing anything part...that's simply an excuse and a well used one. If a person really cares about anything or wants to change it...they do it. It may not turn out the way they imagine...but action is the only way to cause any sort of change...even if it's only a small lil ripple.

As far as not funding it...how so? Cause it's hard not to live in the western world and not fund the actions of our collective governments.

that's true, they aren't disabling me.. just making it really hard, it's pretty difficult for one man, no matter who he is, to stand up or have any kind of influence over a great multitude who doesn't shy away from using the means at hand (which includes huge armies, and arsenals of weapons) to get what they want, and to get rid of what they don't want.

as far as going through the western world sans funds being hard.. yeah tell me about it. I just try to do the best I can. see my thread about Payments for some more thoughts on this position.

[Tequila Zaire]

I served in the first Gulf War and I've been in various others around the world. I knew when the announcements were first made that there would be high civilian casualties, just as much as I doubted vehemently the reasons for this war. My caring for the civilian side and for the reasons for going to war, and for the toll it would bring on the various military personnel sent under (what are for me now clearly) false pretenses began at this point.

That's the thing though. The civilian population was already suffering casualties under the regime they were under. In nations that have such vicious governments one pretty much has to go in knowing before any invading force drops the first bombs that the death toll is already insanely high. Governments who actively kill off their populations can't be measured by the same rules used to gauge other nations. Civilians killed after an invasion were already in Death's queue...a bit morbid to see it in those terms...but if you have a government aready goign to kill people...and you take them out of the equation through war...the numbers sorta balance out. Kinda like the circle of Life on the Circle of Death in this case. It's a no-win situation until a stable government is put into place...and even then the civilians will be abused by criminals from their own ranks.

My caring for the number of civilians began directly with the invasion of Afghanistan, when wedding parties were destroyed from great distances by anonymous orders from above, or by pilots who didn't seek the orders but merely assumed.

As much of a tear jerker as that may be...one has to expect some pretty fucked up things to happen in these situations. From gang ***** to lil girls drenched in napalm. Engines of War tend not to mix well with civilian populations...though a large gathering of people in a warzone...guessing that wedding party should of rescheduled the wedding till after death from above was a daily reality. Just one of the harsh realities of being a civilian in a war zone...YOU know you're a non-combatent...everyone else...not so sure.

My open venting began before the US government announced that the figures of Iraqi civilians and soldiers killed were unimportant, but was fueled by this announcement. On the suicides within the military, at the time of the announcement.

I know of others who only react once they hear it in the media, or react only the slightest thing (judging before all the facts are in) which seems as if it might be right, in some way. I have always tried (sometimes successfully) to base my own reactions both on information and on experience, specifically my own experiences. In this case I have been right (the war against Iraq), although I am the first to admit, that is not always the case.

Well this a bit mixed of opinion and a simple gamble. The war in Iraq Part 2 has both it's sides so at this point History will decide who's right and the graveyards will be filled with new souls to haunt those who survive it all. Thing is though you can't always wait for all the info to come in to act...so I agree it's a challenge to say the least of knowing when the correct time is to react. 1000 dead today? of 10,000 dead in 10 years? or 1 Million dead over the next 50? Glad I'm not the guy who has to make THOSE kinda choices...but I can at least sympathize with the fact both sides will critique you well past death. Iraq as an example...reacting late on the issue...didn't seem to matter cause acting early was not even an option (gotta love the Cold War). Everyone says Now Was Not The Time...fair enough...but...the civilians we weep over now were still filling the graves...so to use them as an excuse now is not only disengenuous but kinda fucking hilarious.

In all honesty...the sides for and against this conflict are looking at it through their political idealogies and those who do care...are too late. You can't be against a conflict cause innocent people are being killed when they were already getting killed and you can't be for a conflcit because innocent people are getting killed and then kill more of them in the process....you can be for or agaisnt them for OTHER reasons...but those two...no...that's just crossing the line of reason and ethics. It's vile...really really vile.

But something has to grease the wheels...may as well be the dead since they can't complain and no longer care.

[Tequila Zaire]

that's true, they aren't disabling me.. just making it really hard, it's pretty difficult for one man, no matter who he is, to stand up or have any kind of influence over a great multitude who doesn't shy away from using the means at hand (which includes huge armies, and arsenals of weapons) to get what they want, and to get rid of what they don't want.

Some of the most effictive men in recent history simply used a mic, their voice, and words...I'd like to be optimistic in thinking that's the best way to go for the average joe.

[Tequila Zaire]

I debate many things with many people, and always try to hear their side of an argument (devil's advocate or honest belief). I have long since stopped assuming that anything contrary to my opinion is an attack against me. Feel free to jab and stab and query as much as you wish, it's what makes a debate / discussion enjoyable.

Flame wars start that way though...so I try to keep it heated at most. A few old debates here sorta spiraled into nastiness that killed great discussions..

[Nightingale]

Flame wars start that way though...so I try to keep it heated at most. A few old debates here sorta spiraled into nastiness that killed great discussions..

Of curse they do, but good debates also start that way. Sometimes it cannot be avoided, but it can always be left behind.

[Nightingale]

That's the thing though. The civilian population was already suffering casualties under the regime they were under. In nations that have such vicious governments one pretty much has to go in knowing before any invading force drops the first bombs that the death toll is already insanely high. Governments who actively kill off their populations can't be measured by the same rules used to gauge other nations. Civilians killed after an invasion were already in Death's queue...a bit morbid to see it in those terms...but if you have a government aready goign to kill people...and you take them out of the equation through war...the numbers sorta balance out. Kinda like the circle of Life on the Circle of Death in this case. It's a no-win situation until a stable government is put into place...and even then the civilians will be abused by criminals from their own ranks.

Civilians suffer abuses, often leading to death, in countries where there is no despotic leader. There are countries in the world where the death toll is considerably higher (Ruanda springs to mind, as does Somalia) but the reactions are either non-existant or, at best, halfhearted. What made Iraq any different? Life is a cycle of death anyway, it is merely a question of how that death comes about.

As much of a tear jerker as that may be...one has to expect some pretty fucked up things to happen in these situations. From gang ***** to lil girls drenched in napalm. Engines of War tend not to mix well with civilian populations...though a large gathering of people in a warzone...guessing that wedding party should of rescheduled the wedding till after death from above was a daily reality. Just one of the harsh realities of being a civilian in a war zone...YOU know you're a non-combatent...everyone else...not so sure.

Naturally, however it is not the fact of the civilian casualties that annoys many, although various government ministers have constantly said that the civilian deaths were an error and their weaponry is so exact that no one need die but the real target. What annoys me more than anything was this comment from the US government that civilian and foreign casualties would not be recorded because they are unimportant; this statement says more about the thinking behind the theoretical liberation of a country than any promises for the future may.

Well this a bit mixed of opinion and a simple gamble. The war in Iraq Part 2 has both it's sides so at this point History will decide who's right and the graveyards will be filled with new souls to haunt those who survive it all. Thing is though you can't always wait for all the info to come in to act...so I agree it's a challenge to say the least of knowing when the correct time is to react. 1000 dead today? of 10,000 dead in 10 years? or 1 Million dead over the next 50? Glad I'm not the guy who has to make THOSE kinda choices...but I can at least sympathize with the fact both sides will critique you well past death. Iraq as an example...reacting late on the issue...didn't seem to matter cause acting early was not even an option (gotta love the Cold War). Everyone says Now Was Not The Time...fair enough...but...the civilians we weep over now were still filling the graves...so to use them as an excuse now is not only disengenuous but kinda fucking hilarious.

I've heard the History Will Tell gambit many times from Blair. It was used to excess when the first doubts over the 45 minutes were raised; it was used when WMD held by Iraq were listed; it was used when the UK intelligence report was first aired. In all these cases History has caught up with Blair much faster than he would have wished, and all three points have proven false or falsified. History may well exonerate, but it does nothing for those who have already paid with their lives. The Roman Catholic Church, last week, exonerated 411 women murdered as witches. I'm sure that they are all very pleased to hear it and are packing their bags to move upstairs to heaven as I write; history comes too late.

In all honesty...the sides for and against this conflict are looking at it through their political idealogies and those who do care...are too late. You can't be against a conflict cause innocent people are being killed when they were already getting killed and you can't be for a conflcit because innocent people are getting killed and then kill more of them in the process....you can be for or agaisnt them for OTHER reasons...but those two...no...that's just crossing the line of reason and ethics. It's vile...really really vile.

But something has to grease the wheels...may as well be the dead since they can't complain and no longer care.

Everyone looks at it from their own point of view, or from their own political point of view. There are very few people who can stand back and make objective comments - certainly not within the US or the UK. Within the US it is even harder to be objective, partially because of the lack of independent news and partially because of the forthcoming election. Were the British about to have an election, I do not doubt that tempers and ideology would be flying all over the place there too.

It is difficult in Germany to see objectively too; the government here took a distinct stand against the war and, although they have now been proven correct in many if not most of their reasons, it is still an upward struggle to gain back the confidence that was there before between trading partners and allies. The side that is being proven wrong has the ability to overwhelm through sheer size and financial power, and objectivity plays no role in such matters.

[Nightingale]

Some of the most effictive men in recent history simply used a mic, their voice, and words...I'd like to be optimistic in thinking that's the best way to go for the average joe.

That is true, but sadly they have not been so effective in the short term. The short term belongs to those who physically act and those who use(d) words have to adapt to something that should have been avoided and would have been had those with the immediate power taken time from their prejudices and business interests to listen.