Matthew Reed from TigerLilly Tattoo and DesignWorks Sues Over Tattoo Design Ownership

[Tequila Zaire]

I mean look at the alternative's to my points- the two arguments are that mothers that can't afford to pay the cost of raising thier children are sissies that complain too much, and that racism in economics of this country is ok and it's the minorities fault for not showing enough initiative. You're right, you sure showed me what's what.

I'm not trying to show YOU anything. Your alternative arguments are flawed and downright out of place not to mention so broad that it has zero place in this lil debate.

No one called Mothers who can't afford to raise their kids sissies but to elevate them to some level were we should ALL be responsible for them is bullshit. Hate to break it to you but some of them really are idiots who should have kept their legs closed...hell I'm related to some like that. So don't try to get some sad sack story out of it and paint it as a grand injustice or plight...kids are magically concived and if you can't deal with the responsibility of them...don't have them.

As far as racism in economics...that's a whole topic unto itself and pro sports is one of the few places minorities can rise ABOVE it. High School sports alone send more minoritiy students to college than anything else. Please...if you're gonna bring up racism don't bring it up in the areas minorities excel in.

[Morning Glory]

I got a solution with what we can do with the money made by proffesional sports stars, how about we put it into public education and city services so that those 'statistics' can have a choice other than one percent likelyhood of success (IE: becoming famous basketball stars) or 97% likleyhood of failure (jail, unemployment, not going to college, etc.) ?

[Amelia G]

oh amelia, don't you know that's because your a jealous cry baby loser, and it's because you're not talented enough of a photographer that you don't make as much as an NBA star?

A cool thing about what I do is that I can do it well past the age of 30 and most sports stars can't. I couldn't have been a sports star, as I lack the aptitude. I wish our society were better at teaching kids about their options before they had to go out into the world and make choices. I feel like some of my choices could have been better informed, but I actually do believe that an NBA star should make more than I do.

I hope I bring pleasure to a lot of people with my work, but I don't kid myself that I entertain as many people as Shaquille O'Neal (probably spelled wrong because I don't know my sports) or anyone like him. There is not the same business structure in place for even the most talented punk rock photographer to make the kind of dough that a talented basketball player makes. And I knew that when I chose to pick up a camera.

[Tequila Zaire]

I got a solution with what we can do with the money made by proffesional sports stars, how about we put it into public education and city services so that those 'statistics' can have a choice other than one percent likelyhood of success (IE: becoming famous basketball stars) or 97% likleyhood of failure (jail, unemployment, not going to college, etc.) ?

So...you want to take money from minorities to pay for stuff the majority should have taken care of...oh yeah...that's really fair.

[ForrestBlack]

I think it's weird that people simultaiously complain that musicians don't make enough because the 'industry' takes too big a cut of sales revenue, and at the same time complain that sports figures make too much money for what they do. Is there some magic socialist style salery that successful entertainers should get so that people would stop complaining about someone elses money? I think it's perhaps reasonable to complain about ticket prices or whatever, but at it's core, that is just supply and demand. A lot of sports figures are very cheritable with their money, their time, their star power etc. and they have helped out a lot of people. A job simply being hard should not mean it pays more. A job being valuable should mean that it pays more. And yes, many valuable jobs are hard, but not all hard jobs are valuable.

Raising a child is hard work, but if it was a job that required an application, a lot of people simply wouldn't qualify.

[Amelia G]

I got a solution with what we can do with the money made by proffesional sports stars, how about we put it into public education and city services so that those 'statistics' can have a choice other than one percent likelyhood of success (IE: becoming famous basketball stars) or 97% likleyhood of failure (jail, unemployment, not going to college, etc.) ?

Are you saying that someone who worked his whole life to play basketball at the highest level and earn a lot of money but only for a few years should be taxed such that he is forced to make no more than the kid who smoked out during class and shows up late for his Mickey D's job?

And then what is that sports star supposed to do afterwards? Get a Mickey D's job as well? He would probably show up for work as he has built up self discipline.

[Morning Glory]

no, I don't think he should be taxed at all, so that his money can go to someone who does even less than a basketball player (a politician)? maybe professional sports do require a level of commitment and talent that aren't present in a mcdonalds employee, but that was never my point, the point was that I think it's excessive that they are payed more than Doctors, City planners... the list goes on of people who are also talented and whose talents go to something that actaully progresses society. we all may not be NBA quality, but if there was no NBA, we could all still play basketball. the same can't be said for the other professions I named.

[Morning Glory]

sure it's for a max four years.. but if that player makes 500,000 a year, that's still more than someone that works for 20 years at 30,000.

[Amelia G]

no, I don't think he should be taxed at all, so that his money can go to someone who does even less than a basketball player (a politician)? maybe professional sports do require a level of commitment and talent that aren't present in a mcdonalds employee, but that was never my point, the point was that I think it's excessive that they are payed more than Doctors, City planners... the list goes on of people who are also talented and whose talents go to something that actaully progresses society. we all may not be NBA quality, but if there was no NBA, we could all still play basketball. the same can't be said for the other professions I named.

But the idea that an athlete should not make more than a doctor does not exist in a vacuum.

For doctors to make more, we would have to pay more for medical care and I know that is already a stretch for me and I'm pretty positive I am not alone in having trouble affording healthcare.

If you think that sports stars make too much or other professions make too little, what do you think that, as a society, we should do about it to make it better?

[karyn]

sure it's for a max four years.. but if that player makes 500,000 a year, that's still more than someone that works for 20 years at 30,000.

most productive citizens will work for 50+ years with today's lifespans and most people who make an effort at what they do will get raises over time so that a 40-year-old will make more than a 20-year-old. $30k would be damn good for a 20-year-old and tough to make ends meet on for a 40-year-old

[ForrestBlack]

If a teacher could fill a stadium every week with 50,000 students, paying somewhere between say $25 and $150 for a two hour lesson, plus maintain such massive cable viewership that they could charge a premium for advertising spots, then yes, they too should make a lot of money. I wish we had some that good and that popular.

If a doctor could heal a stadium full of people every week for that ticket price, I'd think about going to see him or her too.

[Morning Glory]

yeah, because sports stars have all the money... if they don't have it, it doesn't just dissapear, there's more of it to be distributed among other venues. like I said cut the pay of those sports guys, it would take nothing away from sports, but greed, if they charged us all less for it. I guess it might make a lot of people no longer want to play sports.. but do you really want to watch those guys if they don't even give a shit about playing, only about thier paychecks?

[Tequila Zaire]

no, I don't think he should be taxed at all, so that his money can go to someone who does even less than a basketball player (a politician)? maybe professional sports do require a level of commitment and talent that aren't present in a mcdonalds employee, but that was never my point, the point was that I think it's excessive that they are payed more than Doctors, City planners... the list goes on of people who are also talented and whose talents go to something that actaully progresses society. we all may not be NBA quality, but if there was no NBA, we could all still play basketball. the same can't be said for the other professions I named.

Ok...so basicly because they don't make as much as a sports star they are not as important?

Wealth does not equal value.

Doctors and even city planners are valued for their services...and in most cases well compensated. Plus a GOOD doctor tends to work not for the money but for the profession he chose. Even sports stars as much as one focuses on their money...do play for the love of the game at some point in their lives.

Their are more doctors than sports stars and their is no way each could be payed the huge amounts a sports star does. Hell most people who PLAY pro sports don't get anywhere near the amount a star player makes. Factor in taxes and it's about the same level as any high grade professional job.

Plus why pick on them only and leave out the generations of wealthy elite who inherited millions for being part of the lucky sperm count? If you want to factor in money for work then Paris Hilton makes more money than ANY NBA star...hell she makes more then most of them COMBINED and the only thing she does is...well...no one is really sure. ..but either way she'll inherit an insane amount of $$$ for never really doing much of anything.

Plus all of this leaves out people who make insane amounts of money for doing piss poor jobs...it's a wide spectrum here.

[Tequila Zaire]

yeah, because sports stars have all the money... if they don't have it, it doesn't just dissapear, there's more of it to be distributed among other venues. like I said cut the pay of those sports guys, it would take nothing away from sports, but greed, if they charged us all less for it. I guess it might make a lot of people no longer want to play sports.. but do you really want to watch those guys if they don't even give a shit about playing, only about thier paychecks?

That's not greed...it's called security.Most of these guys are playing and earning for a legacy. To make sure that their next generation (kids, grandkids, family,etc.) get the opportunity to do what they want and get the education and chances money can provide. It's not all about fast cars and big houses...those are perks...but their is a purpose. Don't jsut buy into the image these guys put out...many are cunning and smart buisnessmen. aEach hope that the money they make will be around well after they retire.

Plus keep in mind their are many (too many) stories of rich athletes who lose EVERYTHING years after their star has faded. Just cause you make millions does not mean you will keep it.

[Amelia G]

yeah, because sports stars have all the money... if they don't have it, it doesn't just dissapear, there's more of it to be distributed among other venues. like I said cut the pay of those sports guys, it would take nothing away from sports, but greed, if they charged us all less for it. I guess it might make a lot of people no longer want to play sports.. but do you really want to watch those guys if they don't even give a shit about playing, only about thier paychecks?

I don't make less as a photographer or writer because an NBA star makes a lot. If more people make bank, then more people can spend money on more than the bare essentials. That stimulates the economy and gives everyone a better standard of living.

How would you go about making it so that a sports star makes less money? The only way I can think of is for highly paid athletes to be taxed higher than they already are. This does not seem fair to me.

[Morning Glory]

you're an idiot. can you read? maybe before you ask me if I think those people aren't important why don't you read the next sentance right after that that's entire point is WHY they are MORE important that sports stars.

sure I think that people like Paris Hilton don't deserve any money, but then her money is given to her from three generations worth of savings that came from a guy that built the company from the ground up. that's not really the same as the pay basis of an NBA star. I'm pretty sure I said how useless and spoiled she is in some thread, but if you'd like to list every profession, i'd be glad to tell you on a case by case basis of it's importance to society.

[ForrestBlack]

If you want to factor in money for work then Paris Hilton makes more money than ANY NBA star...hell she makes more then most of them COMBINED and the only thing she does is...well...no one is really sure. ..but either way she'll inherit an insane amount of $$$ for never really doing much of anything.

Even with folks like Paris, someone in her family worked very hard and very smart to make all that money, so I can't fault them for allowing their offspring and perhaps future generations in their family to enjoy the wealth. Some families hand it down and use it wisely, some don't, but that is up to whoever has it. There is nothing wrong with getting it.

[Amelia G]

Even with folks like Paris, someone in her family worked very hard and very smart to make all that money, so I can't fault them for allowing their offspring and perhaps future generations in their family to enjoy the wealth. Some families hand it down and use it wisely, some don't, but that is up to whoever has it. There is nothing wrong with getting it.

Certainly if we can saint a single mom for bothering to feed and clothe her kids, then we can't demonize a hard-working man for actually planning for and providing for his family. Maybe Paris Hilton is undeserving, but is she more undeserving than the faceless children of a hypothetical nonspecific single mom?

[Morning Glory]

That's not greed...it's called security.Most of these guys are playing and earning for a legacy. To make sure that their next generation (kids, grandkids, family,etc.) get the opportunity to do what they want and get the education and chances money can provide. It's not all about fast cars and big houses...those are perks...but their is a purpose. Don't jsut buy into the image these guys put out...many are cunning and smart buisnessmen. aEach hope that the money they make will be around well after they retire.

Plus keep in mind their are many (too many) stories of rich athletes who lose EVERYTHING years after their star has faded. Just cause you make millions does not mean you will keep it.

yeah it is greed, that 100 dollar seat you pay for a big NBA game sure as hell doesn't go to the janitor that maintains the place, it goes to the huge salery of the sportsman, and the other lackeys that prop him up so they can take a cut. charge 20 bucks for a ticket, everything stays the same, other than the sports stars making less money.

[Tequila Zaire]

you're an idiot. can you read? maybe before you ask me if I think those people aren't important why don't you read the next sentance right after that that's entire point is WHY they are MORE important that sports stars.

I'm beginning to wonder the same thing about you. Wasen't asking if they aren't important...was asking why you have this notion that wealth automaticly equals high value and importance.

[Tequila Zaire]

yeah it is greed, that 100 dollar seat you pay for a big NBA game sure as hell doesn't go to the janitor that maintains the place, it goes to the huge salery of the sportsman, and the other lackeys that prop him up so they can take a cut. charge 20 bucks for a ticket, everything stays the same, other than the sports stars making less money.

Actually it does. Part of the ticket price goes into stadium maintenance and upkeep. Ticket prices can be said are too high but modern stadiums are not like those of old...they are insanely expensive to keep up with and don't pay off unless the teams using it draw crowds...and those janitors don't have jobs if people don't come...and who draws crowds?

Stars.

[Morning Glory]

[QUOTE=AmeliaG]I don't make less as a photographer or writer because an NBA star makes a lot. If more people make bank, then more people can spend money on more than the bare essentials. That stimulates the economy and gives everyone a better standard of living.
\QUOTE]

the trickel down theory is bullshit, it's only used by assholes to justify why it's ok for them to be assholes. if that money goes back into the economy and improves everyone's quality of living, then why is it that as agreed, if those NBA stars come from poor families in the ghetto, why hasn't that bank they earned done anything to make the ghetto better and make better jobs and wages for those people?

[Tequila Zaire]

Even with folks like Paris, someone in her family worked very hard and very smart to make all that money, so I can't fault them for allowing their offspring and perhaps future generations in their family to enjoy the wealth. Some families hand it down and use it wisely, some don't, but that is up to whoever has it. There is nothing wrong with getting it.

I'm not faulting the girl but if one is going to complain about people making a lot of money for little work then their is a whole other social class that should draw more focus.

What created the Hilton fortune is what every minority wants because that's what created wealth and influence for them. Oddly enough Chris Rock has a great comment on that in his last HBO show.

[Morning Glory]

I'm beginning to wonder the same thing about you. Wasen't asking if they aren't important...was asking why you have this notion that wealth automaticly equals high value and importance.

I don't think it does... but if it truly doesn't to you, then you have no objection to paying that janitor a million dollars a year and that athelete miniumum wage.

sure the sportsman may fill the seats, but whose asses will want to sit in those seats when the stadium is falling down and the ground is covered in shit? and who's going to clean it up? not the athletes, I'm willing to bet.

[Amelia G]

[QUOTE=Morning Glory]

I don't make less as a photographer or writer because an NBA star makes a lot. If more people make bank, then more people can spend money on more than the bare essentials. That stimulates the economy and gives everyone a better standard of living.
\QUOTE]

the trickel down theory is bullshit, it's only used by assholes to justify why it's ok for them to be assholes. if that money goes back into the economy and improves everyone's quality of living, then why is it that as agreed, if those NBA stars come from poor families in the ghetto, why hasn't that bank they earned done anything to make the ghetto better and make better jobs and wages for those people?

A lot of highly-paid athletes do charity work to improve where they came from and a lot of highly-paid athletes spend a lot of their money taking care of extended family and friends.

You still haven't answered my question of how athletes should make less? How could that be implemented to make a better society?

[Tequila Zaire]

[QUOTE=Morning Glory]

I don't make less as a photographer or writer because an NBA star makes a lot. If more people make bank, then more people can spend money on more than the bare essentials. That stimulates the economy and gives everyone a better standard of living.
\QUOTE]

the trickel down theory is bullshit, it's only used by assholes to justify why it's ok for them to be assholes. if that money goes back into the economy and improves everyone's quality of living, then why is it that as agreed, if those NBA stars come from poor families in the ghetto, why hasn't that bank they earned done anything to make the ghetto better and make better jobs and wages for those people?

It's not an NBA stars job to fix the ghetto...that is the job of the city those ghetto's are in and federal government...the majority. In this case..the rich white majority. Even if you pooled ALL the money NBA stars make...they'd barely be able to make East L.A. on par with other cities in Southern California...you can't throw money at an issue like that...you need to change generations of social neglect and exploitation.

[ForrestBlack]

...but if you'd like to list every profession, i'd be glad to tell you on a case by case basis of it's importance to society.

But these athletes and teachers and doctors and single mothers don't live in a socialist or communist system. Even the single mother could raise her child right and encourage them in fields where success might help her enjoy wealth in her later years. Capitalism may strike some folks as unfair, by it's nature, but it is the environment for this conversation. People have some degree of free will with their money. Those that produce appealing products or services probably make more money, regardless of your perceive social value of their product or service. Capitalism allows people who work hard and smart to raise their station, to change their cast.

[Amelia G]

I don't think it does... but if it truly doesn't to you, then you have no objection to paying that janitor a million dollars a year and that athelete miniumum wage.

The janitor has not made possible the sale of more than a million dollars worth of goods and services.

I used to do stagecrew work putting together the basketball floor for games in Northern Virginia. It was dangerous work and paid sucky, but, stagehands who rejected basketball floor gigs, would not get booked for higher paying and more fun rock gigs at the same venue. The job sucked. The pay was low and injuries were common. I'm glad I don't have to do it any more. But I am under no illusion that my contribution was equal to that of the players.

[Tequila Zaire]

I don't think it does... but if it truly doesn't to you, then you have no objection to paying that janitor a million dollars a year and that athelete miniumum wage.

If that janitor can sell out the staduim he works in...sure. It goes both ways...money may not make you important and valuable off the bat but having skills or talents that are not in demand or far from rare will not earn you millions even if it is hard and brutal work like say a Miner. It's not a job I woud say ANYONE can do but it's a job that has many applicants and a vast majority can do it well. An NBA star...not quite the same since for every draft pick and prospect few will ever reach the level of status as a legend of the game.

A janitor and an NBA star may be equal as basic human beings but their skills, talents, and the rarity of them do place $ signs on them.

[Amelia G]

As human beings, the janitor and the athlete may be of equal value, but one performs a job function which just simply is more valuable.

[Morning Glory]

You still haven't answered my question of how athletes should make less? How could that be implemented to make a better society?

yes I did. Pay Athletes less reduce thier pay by not charging as much for games and merchandise and fucking four dollar cups of beers, and invest that money directly back into the community, instead of going through the middleman of trickel down economics.

[Tequila Zaire]

sure the sportsman may fill the seats, but whose asses will want to sit in those seats when the stadium is falling down and the ground is covered in shit? and who's going to clean it up? not the athletes, I'm willing to bet.

Obviously you haven't seen some South American and European soccor stadiums.

[Morning Glory]

It's not an NBA stars job to fix the ghetto...that is the job of the city those ghetto's are in and federal government...the majority. In this case..the rich white majority. Even if you pooled ALL the money NBA stars make...they'd barely be able to make East L.A. on par with other cities in Southern California...you can't throw money at an issue like that...you need to change generations of social neglect and exploitation.

I totally agree, the NBA is only a very small problem in a much bigger issues, but I think that it certinaly doesn't help it any.

[ForrestBlack]

the trickel down theory is bullshit, it's only used by assholes to justify why it's ok for them to be assholes. if that money goes back into the economy and improves everyone's quality of living, then why is it that as agreed, if those NBA stars come from poor families in the ghetto, why hasn't that bank they earned done anything to make the ghetto better and make better jobs and wages for those people?

Who makes the money from the sales fancy cars, spinning 20inch rims, custom paint jobs? Who makes the money off building sprawling houses with massive pools? Mostly blue collar folks really. How is that not trickledown? Blingy pro sports are probably the BEST example of trickledown. White collar corporate executives just sock the cash away in tax shelters and offshore accounts. What is better for the lower levels of the salary pyramid? If I was broke, I'd much rather make my money building a cool house or designing hot wheels for sports stars, instead of hitting up the government for some sort of welfare so I could get my chunk of the funds taxed off the successful.

[Tequila Zaire]

yes I did. Pay Athletes less reduce thier pay by not charging as much for games and merchandise and fucking four dollar cups of beers, and invest that money directly back into the community, instead of going through the middleman of trickel down economics.

That's a dangerous idea...I don't think any community wants their fortunes laid on the shoulders of the local sports team....even yankee fans. Having such a direct connection would eliminate the responsibility of those who TRULY are suppose to be helping these communities.

It's just not their job to do it...that's why we have those crazy things called city, state, and federal governments. Plus the taxes these sports stars and clubs pay do find their way into many places around this country...if indirectly.

[Morning Glory]

Obviously you haven't seen some South American and European soccor stadiums.

yes I have. If we could all beat the shit out of each other after the games then... I don't know... not sure how that relates at all to a players salarie...

[Tequila Zaire]

Who makes the money from the sales fancy cars, spinning 20inch rims, custom paint jobs? Who makes the money off building sprawling houses with massive pools? Mostly blue collar folks really. How is that not trickledown? Blingy pro sports are probably the BEST example of trickledown. White collar corporate executives just sock the cash away in tax shelters and offshore accounts. What is better for the lower levels of the salary pyramid? If I was broke, I'd much rather make my money building a cool house or designing hot wheels for sports stars, instead of hitting up the government for some sort of welfare so I could get my chunk of the funds taxed off the successful.

Oddly enough MTV's Pimp My Ride is an excellent example of this. West Coast Customs was famous and well known before the show of course but they are a prime example of blue collar guys making serious cash off uber rich sports stars and entertainers all while having their skills and talents appreciated...plus they farm out various duties to even more blue collar businesses like leatherworking for the cars they build.

It may not help EVERYONE on the low end of the spectrum...but nothing can help everyone anyhow.

[Morning Glory]

good for them. maybe MTV can make a new show called "talk about shit" and pay us all, that'd be nice, but it wouldn't do much to change the situation about the NBA would it? it probibly wouldn't help out the people of compton very much if we went out and spent that money on buying computers for everyone, and then they could all join in this discussion and we could say how great it is that we got payed by rich folks to talk about shit, but they would still be poor.

[Amelia G]

yes I have. If we could all beat the shit out of each other after the games then... I don't know... not sure how that relates at all to a players salarie...

So the way this would work is that the TV stations would pay the NBA less and the team owners would pay the stadiums less and the players less and the hotdog venders less and basically the huge machine of tons of people who make their living from the sports industry, down to the high school kid at Foot Locker, should all make less money and this would be a good thing? How would the money that was then not going to player salaries end up building up public schools and such? Would you just raise taxes on everyone in the community, so that someone who once would have paid $100 for a ticket, now pays $25 for the ticket and $75 in taxes? What about people like me who are not really interested in sports and would not have paid the $100 for a ticket? Should I also have my taxes raised so sports stars could be paid less?

In summary, money needs a conduit to get from point A to point B. There has to be a mechanism of transfer and such mechanisms impact real people.

[Morning Glory]

I don't even know what we are talking about anymore. it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. so yeah..I still stand by my statement that if that guy can get money from them, then it's all good, after all Isn't that the true inventive capitalist spirit?