Punk stereotype...

[Jax]

Ok, Im posting here because Im frustrated with the way younger punks view our lifestyle.

Just recently I was talking to a younger self proclaimed punk kid who told me we need to run away together and become squatter punks. To which my reply was how he needed to get out of the shithole city hes living in and make something of himself like Im trying to do. Well his response saddened/shocked/pissed me off. Im very passionate about my life and 'scene', and wrote him back (Ill post the convo below, keeping his identity private). If I had explained 'punk' to you in this manner, would it help you kinda grasp a new view on a subculture that you claim to be a part of? Is there anything anyone can add that maybe I didnt think of, or maybe you have something to add relating to the subject period? Go from top to bottom...


----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: XXX

god where do girls like you come from!! and why are you so far away!! lets run away together and become gutter punx


----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Jax

Lol, been there done that. What you should do is get out of that shithole town youre in and make something of yourself like Im trying to because punks need to start taking responsibility seriously;]


----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: XXX

dude we will never make responsibility work... u need to understand that we have a look to us.... and a personality to us... that will never be excepted in todays society.. noone understands it. we will never be taken seriously... only by our fellow punks. all you can do is enjoy your life and rebel... i live for this shit dude.


----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Jax

I understand more about the punk life than most punks running around today listening to NOFX and Pennywise.

Sadly, punks dont WANT to be accepted in society and thats sad. Im not one of those punks. I choose this lifestyle, and I know the consequences, and I know that I make life harder standing up for what I am. I roll over on my back for noone and I do not have a defeatist attitude...something more punks and the upcoming punk generation needs to have as well. Why would I live punk and breathe punk, just to prove everyone RIGHT! Thats not rebellion, thats just lame. Fellow punks dont even take other punks seriously, if you think that, you have a verey narrow view on the scene. Thats why its dying out and falling apart.

I live life to the fullest. I ca honestly say Ive lived a very fullfilling life, surviving what 98 percent of the population would crumble from.

Do you think squatting is really fulfilling and fun??? Ive done it for 9 years, and its not fun seeing your friends die, go to jail, and get murdered in front of your eyes. Its not fun waking up with guns in your face when you werent even doing anything wrong. Going to jail isnt fun.

I will rebel against society by doing what they DONT expect. Being the best at my job, working my ass off for the things people wish they had, and being HAPPY doing it all. Happiness is the biggest fuck you to society. Staying strong and not allowing a stereotype to apply to me is a rebellion. Educating people that punks arent lazy drunken junkies is a rebellion to me. Thats what *I* live for, and what alot of older punks live for who have paid their dues.

Think about it.

[sheramil]

you know, the hippies came up against the same problem in the late sixties, just before their culture was assimilated. same with the rock and rollers, in the fifties. this thing has been happening about once a decade since the end of the second world war, and for all i know before that all the way back to Mesapotamian civilisation.

rebelling against conformism could be seen as conforming to rebellion.

if you really want to fight the problem you become a school-teacher. or is that not seen as cool? :>

[Morning Glory]

you're right, squatting is not fun. train hopping can be fun, but it has serious real risks. always having to steal to eat/ shopping from a dumpster isn't fun either. BUt working my ass off for a boss that treats me like shit isn't fun either, having to fork over all the money that you made from that shithole job to another asshole just so that you can have a place to sleep isn't fun either. Seriously, fuck this society. I don't want to have anything to do with it, not because I'm Oh So Punk Rock, but because it's based on nothing but fear and greed, and i'd rather live in a community based on love and sharing, not force and intimidation.

[Morning Glory]

Ok, that wasn't so great. Here's some stuff a freind of mine wrote that says it a lot better.

Punk rock as a community seemed to be built on some basic principles:
1. Society is bad
2. Government is bad
3. We should not be like them or be a part of them
4. We should be punks instead
5. We will be punks and somehow save the world just by being punks
6. If we are totally oppositional to everyone, then they will join us

Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s very important to do things like put on events, make art and music, and put out literature. The problem is that when we do those things and make them the focal point of punk rock, then that’s all they will ever be. If we start out with that then we are making a self-imposed limitation that will never let us do what needs to be done.

I think it’s relevant to ask, did we invent punk rock to rebel against disco and hippies, or did we do it to rebel against classism, sexism, racism, ageism, homophobia and corporate government?

So what did we accomplish in 25 years of punk? We changed fashion. We pushed the limits of music. We did unpaid research and development on today’s hottest trends.

Now I’m thirty five years old and I’ve lost my illusions about all the great things that punk rock is going to get done. As I got older I started doing more and more political work. Because we live in America there’s never enough people to do political work, so I tried numerous times to enlist the help of my fellow punk rockers. “Sorry dude, I’m busy right now.” “No way, that group is such and such and I’m way too anarchist to do work with them. “ Etc.

Translation: “I’m going to drink beer instead.”

What I found was that all the talk about getting rid of the cops and government never amounted to shit. Not only did most punks not do anything, they didn’t even do “nothing” right.

Well, sorry to let you know but every time you pay rent it goes into your landlords bank account. That same money comes out of his account once a year and pays for county property tax. That county property tax pays for the sheriffs department and the district attorneys office. Every time you pay sales tax on your beer and cigarettes it goes to the city general fund, which is given primarily to the police department. So basically you’re going to actually have to do something if you want to change the situation.

So I no longer have to worry about how punk rock will deal with this and that, I need to worry about how the species will deal with all this.

I grew up in a social scene that said all forms of human organization are wrong (except ours), and we were wrong. Not only that, we were a little on the fascist side. That being said, what we need now is a whole lot of people who are not willing to OBEY. We need people to come up with a sane future. We need people to figure out how we can be safe and free. We need enough “seed” people to demonstrate that when people are self-policing, they don’t need cops. We need people to push things the way they need to go, whether that means fighting the government in the streets or becoming a part of the government. We need an entire species individually and as a whole that won’t tolerate men hurting women, and adults hurting children, and Europeans hurting everyone else, and wealthy people hurting all the rest of us.

I hate to tell you this, but you’re hired.

[Buster Friendly]

about 8 years ago i got fed up with the cycle of deadend jobs, joblessness, and bullshit i was getting from 'the man'. (read anyone who looked at me funny... which was a fuckload of people.) so i figured, since i was getting the shit end of the stick anyway, i was going to ditch my recent 4 year experiement in 'assimilation' which started when i ditched my dreadlocks, and i got out the clippers, and gave myself the first mohawk i'd had since i was 15.

i still didn't get any respect or money, but at least i had the haircut i liked.

now the only thing about that was, that i'm way too fuckin' lazy to shave the sides of my head everyweek... (not saying i had a 'fauxhawk'... those things are fucking repulsive.)

not only that, but all the kids who hung out around the places i did started to give me shit because i didn't keep my 'hawk dyed atomic toxic puke green, and rock the liberty spikes, or whatever the fuck it was i was contractually obligated to do if i was going to be allowed in public with a mohawk.

man, anyone who's done that knows what a pain in the ass all that is. but i was letting all these other people down or something...

squatting is fun when you're 19... when you're a 30 yearold home 'free' person it sucks ass. i like having locks on my doors, and not 'sharing' my things with a collective. (when crustys sell your 'collective's' stuff for beer/meth money hunting them down for retributive beatdowns can get tiresome after like the 20th time.)

i ditched the 'hawk a few years back, and dress like a MIB now. suits make people nervous.

i miss my mohawk, but i don't miss the up keep. (and i'm still chronically underemployed... but that's a moral failing in this society. sinful. a innate character flaw, a degenerate weakness.... has nothing to do with the fact that this civilization is founded on bullshit. )

anyway... i'm going to hobble over to my walker now, and see if i can make it to the couch with out my hip cracking...

(in fact my life is so much better/more interesting/oppertunity rich/gratifying/fuffilling than anything i could have imagined when i was 17... i've got very little to complain about... well, other than those fucking cows, and their Mithric plot to infect us all with mindbending, reality altering xenoparasites, via their willful collective suicides, and our ritualistic desertifcation of our habitat, and consumption of their flesh, and pus by products... hahahaha...)

[Buster Friendly]

oh yes, and fucking rock on Jax

Happiness IS the biggest FUCK YOU to society!!!

when i'm ultra-rich, you're all invited to my solid gold pyramid of darkness for cocktails, and blood sacrafice.

see you there

(oh, and the above should read: "squatting is fun when you're 19, and out of your fucking mind...")

[Mindgames]

Being ancient enough to have lived in London in 71, punk happened while I was young enough to be influenced but old enough to think about why. With the greatest respect to Jax and the millions of under-40 punks out there today, I do kinda feel there's a difference between punk "as was" and punk "now".

Remember that punk originated as "anti- (insert word here)" cos at the time, the sociopolitical climate was something the youth NEEDED to rebel against - everything from equality and right-wing governments to war and sexuality was still running about pretending the 60s hadn't really happened. The punks I met in the early days where more of a coincidence than a culture - there was only so much late-60s music a brain can stand before blowing a fuse, and the same "cannae-take-any-more-Captain" mentality worked against "the system" just as well - so the kids wanting to rebel against the music tended to rebel against everything else too. Punk "happened" the same way anti-Vietnam "happened".

Back in the day, it wasn't about "fighting the world for the sake of it", like the popular press and 'normals' painted it. Scaring grandparents on the streets was sometimes a laugh, but not the point. Being ALLOWED to look like that was the point. The world wasn't built the way we wanted, so there was a need to do something about it. The problem was, of course, that just like the anti-capitalist marches today, a few hundred thousand 'youths' making a protest will rarely fix anything - so they're seen as dangerous and subversive. If society wated to make us dangerous, then fine - hand out the studs and pins, we'll play your game BECAUSE WE GET THE JOKE.

(I'm not even going to mention the music (d'oh!) as that's not relevent to this thread so far... but hell - you can go a long way in punk with three chords and a drumkit but it won't get you shit in C+W)

Looking around now, I honestly think punk is leaking. A lot of the things that were wrong in 1970 are getting better now (not ALL of them.. but at least now you can be a gay pacifist vegan without getting arrested.. except maybe in Iowa...) and for my crowd a lot of the "anti-" has become "pro-". Punk is still, to those who understand it as more than fashion, a fight for a world you want to live in not a fight to destroy the planet. The change is that some of what we want is now part of the mainstream, and why rebel if you're getting your own way?

Younger punks today (imho) seem to treat the culture as an excuse to be "anti-everything", without necessarily having the reasons anymore. You have to hate things to be a punk, as punks hate everything. Well sure, punks old and new hate SOME things, but we also kinda like stuff. Why is that bad? New punks seem to be taking this "oi! I fckin hate yous alllllllll" attitude and leaking it onto everything that can find, maybe for self-reinfocement but probably just so they feel a tiny bit like Johnny Rotten. If they'd had lunch with Mr Lydon they'd find he's way more like a bank manager with wit than a terrorist with anger. Sure, he still fights the bits of the 'system' that remain stuck in the 70s (gotta love his statement on the RnR hall of fame), but all his views, pro and anti, have logic and reason behind them - plus a good helping of humor. That seems to have been lost on the teenagers joining the scene in recent years.

So Jax is right - being punk is about fighting for your own lifestyle. When it looks like you're getting it, then being punk is about being happy.

mG

[ForrestBlack]

Jax Rocks!

[ForrestBlack]

I do like NOFX though. Amelia even strap-on fucked the promo 'Luv U' blow-up sheep they sent us with Heavy Petting Zoo. Got us in a bit of trouble for that one, but it was worth it.

[Buster Friendly]

i remember that... that was hilarious!

[sheramil]

I do like NOFX though. Amelia even strap-on fucked the promo 'Luv U' blow-up sheep they sent us with Heavy Petting Zoo. Got us in a bit of trouble for that one, but it was worth it.

why, did she do it live on Fox news or something?

"We Report. You Decide. Amelia fucks the inflatible sheep with a strapon."

[Lady Alias]

Well, as everyone knows, no matter the subculture, there will always be the shitheads, the ignorant, and the dumbasses.

[Jax]

If I can educate someone, Id rather do that then call them ignorant. Every human learns something from someone.

[One Eyed Cat]

I think Jax is right. At some point, you realize it wasn't about the system. It's about you and the quality of life you wish to have on this mortal coil. Lacking a better word "punk" is in your heart, not on the patches on your jacket. The defiance and anger are tools you use to make real changes (by example)

I know some people here don't agree with my methods, but some battles we have to fight together. For example, the last civil rights battle is still being fought. I'll post more on the issues facing the LGBT community when I have more time. Suffice it to say, the facts are still brutal. We need to speak out and speak often. They are our brothers and sisters.

OEC

[mmmcherry]

New punks seem to be taking this "oi! I fckin hate yous alllllllll" attitude and leaking it onto everything that can find,

i knew a guy like that... annoyed the living hell out of me... fuck...
asked me for help getting off heroin... then never EVER let me help him once. was fucked.
anywhoodles... yeah.
i heart jax

[Morning Glory]

I do like NOFX though. Amelia even strap-on fucked the promo 'Luv U' blow-up sheep they sent us with Heavy Petting Zoo. Got us in a bit of trouble for that one, but it was worth it.

instead of making some sarcastic remark about this, I'll just say it straight up. NOFX has ,and for all I know still does, during tours kept a running bet on a "who can have sex with the most groupies" contest. I've heard from bands that played with them that there members stood around and applauded while one of thier roadies had sex with a woman, and on another instance urinated on a woman. so ya know, I have to ask, what part of treating a human being like a peice of trash is relevent to any sense of community?

[Morning Glory]

on a semi-realted note, I'm sure you know how the gilman scene fell apart, One Eyed Cat. There was a lot of things, but I think a big part of it was at the core of what you are saying. I respect you because you actually have ideals and do things to further those ideals. In other words, the stuff that punk is supposed to be about.

[Pull~My~Hair]

Stereotypes are devices for saving a biased person the trouble of learning

[One Eyed Cat]

on a semi-realted note, I'm sure you know how the gilman scene fell apart, One Eyed Cat. There was a lot of things, but I think a big part of it was at the core of what you are saying. I respect you because you actually have ideals and do things to further those ideals. In other words, the stuff that punk is supposed to be about.

Thanks. As to Gilman: three words PUNK ROCK POLICE. They became what they despised most. In retrospect, I was lucky to be one of the non-pc folks at the peripheries. It's fucking tragic what has happened in the last decade. Obviously the commercial aspect played a role, but I believe the true destruction was inflicted from within. Having said that, I still learned a lot and met some wonderful people despite it all.

OEC

PS. This isn't to discount all the substance abuse etc. Like you said, there were a lot of factors.

[Black Spiral Dancer]

What a lot of people don't see is that under all the skin art, piercings, dyed hair, bondage straps, braces, etc. that there is a person like anyone else. I walk around the site I work at and have people that have known me for years chat to me, and people that don't know me look at me like I have 5 heads. Yes, i workfor the Government, but that doesn't mean I've sold out or whatever you want to call it, it just means I work for a living and do the best job that I can. At the moment, the Government is trying to penalise people that stay in the same department for too long by saying they should be moving on and getting more experience from different places. But I am personally happy in my work, and if that is getting under the skin of my "higher-up" bosses, then tough! Are they going reduce my pay for being good at my job and being happy to do it? I doubt it, since they'd be facing all sorts of shite, if they tried it. Once you start treating people as people and mot a mental stereotype that you've formed from their clothing/personal adornment, then you can see what that person is capable of.

Jax - Keep being happy! That's the one thing that "The Man" doesn't want! He wants us to conform to his way of thinking and have no opinions. You can have an opinion and still be happy with who & what you are and what you do to make ends meet!

[BloodredProject2402]

damn, wat happened to america, how did we fuck up so bad....isnt the basic principles of the constitution to give people a voice and to be happy at whatever they strive to do?

[BloodredProject2402]

wat do yall think we could do to change all of this....and get it out of there that we arent what they think we are....and what about the posers who dont want to break the image of punks?

[Jax]

wat do yall think we could do to change all of this....and get it out of there that we arent what they think we are....and what about the posers who dont want to break the image of punks?

You are making my brain function. Good job. Now Ill get back to this later with an answer.

[scaramanga]

wat do yall think we could do to change all of this....and get it out of there that we arent what they think we are....and what about the posers who dont want to break the image of punks?

i don't know if it can be done. i mean, no matter what you do, someone will always hate you if you look different. it's a sad but true part of human nature that those who are not posers, who are tolerant and understanding seem to be in the minority.

[Morning Glory]

i don't know if it can be done. i mean, no matter what you do, someone will always hate you if you look different. it's a sad but true part of human nature that those who are not posers, who are tolerant and understanding seem to be in the minority.

that's pretty right on. you don't need a mohawk and a leather jacket to be punk rock (that hairspray kills the ozone, and you just killed a cow. that's actually very UN PuNK!!!) let people know that you aren't just out to destroy everything, that you want to make things better for everyone. let kindness and tolerance be the defintion of your punkness, not oh so manly posturing. sure you won't change the minds of the hard heads that hate everyone anyway, but you might find some freinds amongst those that have a place for revolution in thier hearts and just never thought about finding it in a mosh pitt.

[Flip]

you can only explain it as best as you can, what you said makes sense to me, but he had a belief of what his culture is and he will follow it no matter what anyone says as he follows it because to him thats what the culture represents.

the punk culture is not the only culture to be suffering from this kind of distortion, and from what i can tell its usually the sign of the death of one culture and it being replaced by a new one. its sad really, especially when you still follow what it was originally about and then you get these kids with a whole different attitude saying they are apart of that culture.

i learned not to assign myself to a culture, by doing so i assign myself the stereotypical image that comes with that culture, i can still have my beliefs, but i dont need to fall in with the crowd

[Morning Glory]

that's pretty much what I think too, flip. and people can't seem to understand that.

[Flip]

that's pretty much what I think too, flip. and people can't seem to understand that.

aslong as they accept you for who ya are

[One Eyed Cat]

I think you just have to stand for your own principles. You find allies where you find em. I speak for posterity as much as victory. I want my grandchildren to know who I was and what I saw. To know what it was to be alive during a transitory period of human history. I can't rely on punk as a subculture to be a backdrop to that. I guess that is part of what I took from that scene. DIY.

OEC

[BloodredProject2402]

but i dont want to see this great culture to break a part, there has to be something.....this is where i want to start my own government and run shit the way i want to with my own people that all understand eachother and just want to live in harmony without getting in eachothers way....damn this sucks.

[Flip]

why do you feel the need to have the culture in the first place? a label is just that, a label. you are who you are and if people like the same stuff, well... thats just dandy

as we are on the topic of punk, ill keep to that, punk in the day was a sensible label as they were all like minded people, these days the classification has grown so broad that its impossible to say what is what, by labeling yourself punk you open yourself up to be viewed in the many ways that the culture is viewed, and not all of them are true, if you no longer fit the view of the culture are you really part of it?

just be yourself and get to know people for who they are and not what classification you think they fall under.

[BloodredProject2402]

well i know thats what im saying that number of people is dwindling...its not the reputation i cherish...its the people woho are in it.

[OliX]

shouldn't punk be just music style?

[P I L O T]

IMO ( which i know noone asks for,.. things can begin with the right intentions in mind,.. but with all things "the power of numbers is a double edged sword",.. unfortunely too many younglings don't have the sincere life experiences to truely uunderstand and make sense of things on their own,.. only making shit on themsleves that much harder,.. that much tougher,.. every mind is its own world,.. the world is a stage thats already been set,.. the world is ours and what you do with it is entirely up to you. The past can always be erased, forgotten,.. obsured. All that really matters is tomorrow.

I was thinking about this today,.. one man sits on his porch quietly desperately fiughting his demons trying to control himself from doing god knows what to god knows who. another man walks past him just got out of jail and thinks he is the toughest shit to have set foot on the face of the planet. Every mind is its own world. Then there are the kids playing hooky and they see All old people, and think the world is made for their taking.

I forget where I was going with this,.. but theres always someone tougher than you,.. always. I find amazing how their were things that would shame people. Then one day those things are cool and then everyone fights to prove they are more than then the next,.. then when they are awarded merit and felt alone with their merit to drown in it and suffocate and desperately try to badge themselves something else. I say to each his own,.. and may they find what they need on their path, may it be one worth looking back and reflecting on.

[scaramanga]

shouldn't punk be just music style?

johnny rotten says that punk music is dead, because you're not a punk band if authority's not out to get you.

[BloodredProject2402]

too true pilot, although im not really sure how the "power in numbers is a 2 edge sword..." how is that?

[Mr Karl]

shouldn't punk be just music style?

that's what I always thought too, but until I read all this stuff it almost seems like another 'clique' (did I spell that right?)

of course ,without the dead kennedys my life would be totaly different

[Flip]

too true pilot, although im not really sure how the "power in numbers is a 2 edge sword..." how is that?

i think pilot is saying that although having the majority on your side is a good thing it can also have its consequences

[scaramanga]

sometimes the majority is just a mob of f*ckwits any way

[BloodredProject2402]

ya most of the majority normally is, but then again if the minority is the opposing party, of course they are goin to think that of the majority...