Goths are blamed again...

[Black Spiral Dancer]

Taken from www.canada.com

Published: Thursday, September 14, 2006

Photographs by : Vampirefreaks.com

His name was Kimveer Gill, alias Trench, and he was a Goth, part of a subculture that takes its cues from Gothic literature and horror movies.

At 25 years old, the Montrealer yesterday became famous as the man suspected of staging a live-action horror of his own: the shooting of more than a dozen students at Dawson College, one of them fatally, before he himself was shot dead by police.

Identified in news reports today as the shooter, Gill left behind an illustrated profile of himself on Vampire Freaks.com. "His name is Kimveer. You will come to know him as Trench," the 18-page profile begins.

"He is not a people person. He has met a handfull (sic) of people in his life who are decent. But he finds the majority to be worthless, no good, kniving (sic), betraying, lieing (sic), deceptive mother f--ckers. Work sucks. School sucks. Life sucks. What else can I say."

A crude aphorism follows: "Life is a video game, you gotta die sometime."

He then goes on to take a quiz, and the answers he gives to questions like "How f--cked up are you?" prompt this response from the site: "Wait there. We’re coming to get you now. We’ve called the guys in white coats (to) get you, so don’t commit a mass murder before they come."

The next quiz question asks "How truly depressed are you?" And from his answer, the site concludes: "Suicidally depressed. You are longing to kill yourself, you slit your wrists, not for fun, but because the world isn’t worth living in."

The site records that Gill last logged in four days ago, on Sept. 10 at 4:54 a.m. It says he became a member on the site – one of 595,705 members – on Nov. 14, 2005.

On the site, Gill answered a survey, too, in great detail.

Born: July 9, 1981, in Montreal.

Heritage: Indian.

Goal this year: "Stay alive."

Most missed memory: "Being young."

Been in love? Yes.

Been on drugs in the past month? Yes.

Want to die how? "Like Romeo and Juliet, or in a hail of gunfire."

Number of things I regret: "I regret nothing."

Asked to list his likes, these were some of his responses: "Germany, Marilyn Manson, First-Person Shooters."

Dislikes? There are many, filling two pages. But the first entry, in capital letters, pretty well sums things up:

"The world and everything in it."

jheinrich@thegazette.canwest.com

It appears the media has already made up it's mind... looks like the scene is about to take another knock on the head because one of the few bad seeds does something horrific.
I am assuming due to the link with Vampirefreaks.com mentioned above, we'll all be tarred as blood-drinking, gun wielding, people hating, psychotic illiterates who spend their time engrossed in video games and slasher flicks (I say slasher as horror doesn't have to mean bloody and I doubt this lad would know who Vincent Price was if he was working behind the counter of his local video store with a huge name badge which reads "Hi I'm Vincent Price. Ask me about our special discount for dum idiots" (not to mention the fact that as Vincent Price died some time ago... I think the smell may be quite noticable too)

[Kidthorazine]

this guy wasnt even part of the goth scene from what i understand, he was another metalhead who posted on vampire freaks (a haven for mallgoths) thats what pisses me of most about the medi they blame the scene for people who arent even associated with the scene.

[Amelia G]

The thing that always bugs me in these situations is that much is made of whatever subculture the powers-that-be feel they can associate with someone who went over the edge.

But they don't really ask how this sort of thing can be prevented in the future.

After Columbine, school administrators got medieval on children who seemed too creative or wore too much black. Certainly, in the Columbine case, the tragedy happened because two people had been pushed too far and the teachers and other adults, who could have stopped the abuse, did nothing. So the tortured kids took matters into their own hands with horrifying results.

This guy could have just been a fruit loop. I don't know much about the case at this point, but the way the guy talks about most people sucking suggests that he had some actual complaints.

I don't mean to get all Bill and Ted, right after bashing John Hughes, but I think less of this sort of thing would happen if people would make more of an effort to be excellent to one another.

PS Charles Manson is not cool.

[Mindgames]

Have to start off by saying there's no way on earth he's a goth. You cannot legally be goth and allow yourself to be photographed posing in blue slippers.

The press assume there's a reason for everything beyond individual quirks and failures, as otherwise there's less news in the story. Finding one screwed-up headcase and reporting what they did is fair enough, and it sells a few column inches. Claiming it's the tip of a massive iceberg that's gonna wipe out democracy and you get to run a special edition with a free DVD.

These types of events are caused by the people acting them out, not by the society forcing them into it. Some people are less able to control themselves, see the differences between fantasy and common sense, and just like the 7 billion other folks out there if you dig deep enough in their lives you'll always find some obscure hobby, blog entry, t-shirt design or religious/musical preference to hang it all on - but if influences like those were able to drive normal members of society into killing machines we'd have been wiped out in the middle ages by rampaging lute players with crossbows.

I'm giving it 24 hours before some white-haired Prius driver tries to serve C+D on vampirefreaks' host for assisting the downfall of humanity.

mG

[Amelia G]

You said:

rampaging lute players with crossbows.

[a_small_death]

This is just fucking mad. The guy was just another nut job wanting attention and decided to do so be taking out people. Tis why the media is this damn country can fucking stick this story up their damn ass. It's gonna be anther bowling for colubine in a few months. Not to mention now CNN has posted the shooting for all to see.

[Flip]

anyone with half a brain would be able to tell that this guy was a nut. christ, he sounds bent out of shape about everything. so... the media needs to find a scape goat for this to clear the names of those around this guy, who were in a position to notice that he wasnt all there and do something about it.

its the same with all these delinquent children, instead of tackling the real problem lets just blame it on sub-cultures and video games, but never blame the parents, oh no, it would just be wrong to point the finger at the most influencial people in said kids life.

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

The only influence the goth scene had on this was what the guy wore to the shooting.

Unfortunately, people need something to blame. They need to feel like it is only the freaks and wierdos who do this sort of thing, and nont Johnny McNice down the street. Well unless the McNices let him listen to rap, goth music, join some scary religion or play video games.

Unfortunatly the other chice is pretty horrific. The idea that nearly anyone could be pushed to this point is terrrifying. What if no one abused this guy? What if no one really pushed him? What if it doesn't take much to send some poeple over the edge?

Honestly, of the half million vampirefreaks out there, how many of them commited murders? I bet we will get a higher percentage of college students or baptists. But it is easier to be afraid of terrorists than auto accidents, and goths than... well anyone really, all the while ignoring the fact that vampirefreaks.com probably gave him a place to vent for a while, putting off his shooting spree for weeks. Ah well, I just founf my el mariachi dvd and need to practice my spanish.

[Bondage Clown]

Morons

[Buster Friendly]

funny how the mainstream media never seems to blame the gun nuts isn't it?

well, let's look at the bright side of all this... at least they're not blaming video games.

ps.Marilyn Mason isn't cool either.

[Pull~My~Hair]

that guy has the worst hair ever...im glad he's dead

P.s. yes marilyn manson does suck

[Mirren]

PS Charles Manson is not cool.

I take OFFENSE to this statement. I will no longer be coming to this website because of it. It's irresponsible. You can have your opinion about the man but for you to just say something so childish and don't even give your reasoning behind it is ridiculous. The concept of being cool is for juvenilles. You're a grown woman.Things in life aren't just "bad" and "good"... don't you know that???? Nothing is that cut and dryed. I have been into Mr. Manson's ideology since I was 9 years old, that's thirty years.... .Do you know anything about Charles Manson? Aside from what you have read in half-assed acounts by his detractors? Charles Manson is an American icon and a fucking genius. He is so on the mark about the human condition it isn't even funny. He has lived more lifetimes than all of you put together. And for you to say he isn't "cool".. just unnerves me. You have a lot of traffic on this website, think about your statements before writing them. Was it wrong to have ideas and allegedly conspire to the murdering of people? Yeah, of course. Was this ever proven or claimed by anyone except by people who wanted to save their own asses?? No. Look at the facts. He has been in jail since 1970 on a conspiracy charge. You see nothing intrinsically wrong with that? Bugliosi (L.A. District Attorney at the time) had to pull him in on a conspiracy charge, that's all he had on him. They were never called "The Family"... Bugliosi started all that bullshit. Many things aren't "cool", yet you support them on this site. You don't fuck with Charlie.... not on my watch. Some people on this board were tolerable but I have seen it deteriorate by the day.There have been recent posts with racist comments and jokes, ironically in a thread I started on parental quotes. As a Hispanic, I see a Mexican joke nothing but racist. There is one black person on this board and a statement was made about blacks and the size of thier lips. I am sure that made them feel really good.That's disgusting.You tolerated that quite well.You can't have it both ways Amelia.Maybe you can give away some more t-shirts? And the Marilyn Manson comment... it's insulting he even took his name,that pathetic fucking piece of shit. You aren't PC and neither am I. Sincerely Pissed in Michigan...

[Lady Alias]

-sigh- Yeah, the story took up all four headlines on the "Top Stories" on my google rss feed yesterday. =/

[Amelia G]

I take OFFENSE to this statement. I will no longer be coming to this website because of it. It's irresponsible. You can have your opinion about the man but for you to just say something so childish and don't even give your reasoning behind it is ridiculous. The concept of being cool is for juvenilles. You're a grown woman.Things in life aren't just "bad" and "good"... don't you know that???? Nothing is that cut and dryed. I have been into Mr. Manson's ideology since I was 9 years old, that's thirty years.... .Do you know anything about Charles Manson? Aside from what you have read in half-assed acounts by his detractors? Charles Manson is an American icon and a fucking genius. He is so on the mark about the human condition it isn't even funny. He has lived more lifetimes than all of you put together. And for you to say he isn't "cool".. just unnerves me. You have a lot of traffic on this website, think about your statements before writing them. Was it wrong to have ideas and allegedly conspire to the murdering of people? Yeah, of course. Was this ever proven or claimed by anyone except by people who wanted to save their own asses?? No. Look at the facts. He has been in jail since 1970 on a conspiracy charge. You see nothing intrinsically wrong with that? Bugliosi (L.A. District Attorney at the time) had to pull him in on a conspiracy charge, that's all he had on him. They were never called "The Family"... Bugliosi started all that bullshit. Many things aren't "cool", yet you support them on this site. You don't fuck with Charlie.... not on my watch. Some people on this board were tolerable but I have seen it deteriorate by the day.There have been recent posts with racist comments and jokes, ironically in a thread I started on parental quotes. As a Hispanic, I see a Mexican joke nothing but racist. There is one black person on this board and a statement was made about blacks and the size of thier lips. I am sure that made them feel really good.That's disgusting.You tolerated that quite well.You can't have it both ways Amelia.Maybe you can give away some more t-shirts? And the Marilyn Manson comment... it's insulting he even took his name,that pathetic fucking piece of shit. You aren't PC and neither am I. Sincerely Pissed in Michigan...

If I write an article about something, I do research and planning and fact-checking and all that good journalistic stuff. If I make an offhand one sentence comment in a forum conversation, I would hope no one would take that as my complete and full views on any topic.

In terms of issues of race, I've made my views on that abundantly clear on numerous occasions. I'm uncomfortable with such distinctions. In the specific thread you are talking about, I am genuinely as uncomfortable with ethnic pride as I am with ethnic prejudice. I'm willing to live and let live, but they just feel like two sides of the same coin to me and, for better or for worse, I believe in the perhaps out-of-fashion American ideal of the melting pot. I usually enjoy your threads greatly, but I actually hadn't read that thread in its entirety because I was not personally comfortable with your opening post, but I didn't feel it was out of line in a way I could object to.

If, in an ethnically-oriented thread that you started, you felt that someone else said something wrong, I would expect you to call them on their shit and not ask me to censor it. The idea here is to provide an intelligent forum for exchange of varied views and perspectives. If you don't voice an objection to something wrong, how are you going to change anyone's minds?

If you have read some philosophy of Charles Manson's which speaks to you, you've delved into the subject more than I have and maybe found something of interest. Feel free to share your insight.

Nonetheless, whenever tragedies like school shootings occur, various sources are quick to point to things like a perfectly nice black trenchcoat as being warning signs. Then, of course, subculture-identified people have to deny the shooter as one of their own and point out how incredibly sweet and nice their subculture really is.

We've had enough threads about murderers on this board that I don't think I'm totally off-base in thinking that, whatever folks tend to say during a tragedy, the accusations of the perhaps irresponsible media are not 100% wrong, when there is an undercurrent of deifying serial killers and mass-murderers. I know, I know, Charles Manson just told other people what to do or something and didn't do it himself. I saw video of a Charles Manson parole hearing once and he was clearly batshit crazy and in no condition to convince nearly anyone to do much of anything. Who knows what meds the prison has him on. I suspect he was a very different man when he was first jailed. I know very little detail about him specifically, although I have observed that many (not all, not every, but many) people who are into the whole Manson thing are attracted to the notion of belonging coupled with the notion of doing harm to others.

I think serial killers and mass-murderers (and people who mastermind such things, whether or not Charles Manson did) are interesting, but they are not cool and should not be viewed as such. I did not mis-type when I used the word cool as it is specifically the notion that killing other humans is cool which I was thinking about. So long as it is possible for a lonely and hurt boy to feel like he could at least post-humously bask in the warm love and approval of cool, then it makes it that much more likely that such tragedies will occur. If you've got a better word for it than cool, I'm open to expanding my semantics.

As a subculture, I believe we are all irresponsible if we tacitly offer approval for terrible behavior. That was my point.

[funkatron]

I take OFFENSE to this statement. I will no longer be coming to this website because of it. It's irresponsible.

Here's something I'd call irresponsible: having so little control over your actions that when someone makes a statement you disagree with, you write a toothless, no-evidence diatribe that starts off with a "threat" to stop coming to a free web site. Rather, you might want to try some of what Manson himself suggests:

"Judge Not/Give/Forgive/Condemn Not"

[keiko]

people are afraid of what they don't understand. they don't understand us. so when something scares them, they blame us.

The whole thing sickend me so much while every news station in the US covered it like honey on thecomb that i did something i haven't done in 2 months, easy (not counting 9-11) I turned the damned television off.

I say if we're going to be blamed for whatever some one else does becasue our clothes are the same colour then we sould start maybe a Gothic Extremist Group. Who's with me? We could get all the goth kids to hang out and be broody at Dennys and drink coffee all night on Friday October 13th. That's good ol' fashioned Gothic Terrorism for ya.

K

[TheDeathKnight]

I totally agree with one thing:

If school officials want to focus on something, then they should not focus on persecuting people who look goth, but they should focus on stopping all the teasing and tormenting. They always have the attitude that kids do that stuff, and there is nothing they can do about it. Well, if they can suspend a kid for wearing a trenchcoat, then they can suspend the quarterback if they catch him tormenting some goth kid. But that never happens. They always give the popular jocks a slap on the wrist. If they actually had some teeth, and really punished bullies, with suspension, then they might actually make some progress. Sure, kids will always group together. Some kids will always be unpopular. But that does not make them want to kill people. People want to kill people because they hate them. They only hate them because they fuck with them all the time. When I was a teenager, the times I wanted to kill people, was when I was being physically tormented. When I was able to be ignored, and be alone, I may have been depressed, but not homicidal. It's the physical abuse and intimidation that makes you want to be violent to people. It is overkill for any kid to want to kill people, just because they don't like you.

[Buster Friendly]

personally Mirren i hope you'll be back to post. i usually enjoy what you write, and consider you an important member of this online community that i like to visit.

i'm not fully conversant with Charles Manson's philosophy, but i have read enough to know that what's going on there is widely divergent from the usual pop culture depictions of him. i'm also pretty sure that it's not for me, but then again few things are.

i made the Marylin Manson comment because he's mentioned in the article, and is more generally associated with incidents like this, leather trench coats, and columbine.

anyway, i hope you'll be back.

[TheDeathKnight]

Fuck that.

If someone has that much of a baby tantrum attitude about their interests, and can't handle a little joke, or criticism, then fuck them...

Like we can't discuss Charles Manson without someone having a fucking hissy fit? Give me a break...

I guess we can't discuss religion, politics, or abortion either.
Because someone's going to freak out?
Fuck that.

Grow a spine.

[Kidthorazine]

I take OFFENSE to this statement. I will no longer be coming to this website because of it. It's irresponsible. You can have your opinion about the man but for you to just say something so childish and don't even give your reasoning behind it is ridiculous. The concept of being cool is for juvenilles. You're a grown woman.Things in life aren't just "bad" and "good"... don't you know that???? Nothing is that cut and dryed. I have been into Mr. Manson's ideology since I was 9 years old, that's thirty years.... .Do you know anything about Charles Manson? Aside from what you have read in half-assed acounts by his detractors? Charles Manson is an American icon and a fucking genius. He is so on the mark about the human condition it isn't even funny. He has lived more lifetimes than all of you put together. And for you to say he isn't "cool".. just unnerves me. You have a lot of traffic on this website, think about your statements before writing them. Was it wrong to have ideas and allegedly conspire to the murdering of people? Yeah, of course. Was this ever proven or claimed by anyone except by people who wanted to save their own asses?? No. Look at the facts. He has been in jail since 1970 on a conspiracy charge. You see nothing intrinsically wrong with that? Bugliosi (L.A. District Attorney at the time) had to pull him in on a conspiracy charge, that's all he had on him. They were never called "The Family"... Bugliosi started all that bullshit. Many things aren't "cool", yet you support them on this site. You don't fuck with Charlie.... not on my watch. Some people on this board were tolerable but I have seen it deteriorate by the day.There have been recent posts with racist comments and jokes, ironically in a thread I started on parental quotes. As a Hispanic, I see a Mexican joke nothing but racist. There is one black person on this board and a statement was made about blacks and the size of thier lips. I am sure that made them feel really good.That's disgusting.You tolerated that quite well.You can't have it both ways Amelia.Maybe you can give away some more t-shirts? And the Marilyn Manson comment... it's insulting he even took his name,that pathetic fucking piece of shit. You aren't PC and neither am I. Sincerely Pissed in Michigan...

people come down on manson because hes a total psychopath, and hes never shown him self to be anything other than a total psychopath, also hes in prison for 7 counts of first degree murder, and one count of conspiracy to commit murder.

[Buster Friendly]

i like Mirren's posts, i hope she'll be back.

generally i ignore 'i'm offended' type posts.

i know there's more to Manson than most people know about, it gets alot stranger than 'he's a genius'/'he's a madman.'

Mirren is generally a very thoughtful poster, wish i understood a little bit better why she feels the way she does.

[ForrestBlack]

people are afraid of what they don't understand....
K

This, I certainly agree with.

On the one hand, you have people that dress scary, and to some degree, maybe they mean it. I kinda think, 'Hi, I'm unbalanced, love guns, violence, and black trench coats' should potentially be taken as some sort of warning sign. Maybe that's someone you actually don't want to throw powdered donuts at. Also, don't spit at bears. But, some people can't help but play in traffic.

On the otherhand, if we are really going to corollate crime with trends in style, musical taste, and clothing choices... it's going to be a LONG list of folks to hastle before you ever get to gothic rivethead vampire fans.

[keiko]

On the otherhand, if we are really going to corollate crime with trends in style, musical taste, and clothing choices... it's going to be a LONG list of folks to hastle before you ever get to gothic rivethead vampire fans.

Hear here! What about the gansta fashion that is all about being crazy enough to ...I believe the pharse is "pop a cap in someone's ass" and the majority of goth is all about well, hiding from the mainstream. Why do they have to pick on us?

K

[Buster Friendly]

because ganstas usually only shoot other brownskinned people, and we know that george bush don't like black people.

[Nudemuse]

<big snip>

As a subculture, I believe we are all irresponsible if we tacitly offer approval for terrible behavior. That was my point.

That is a point I think gets missed quite often when it comes to culture and what people do and don't do. As with many other cases instead asking the people blamed when something really tragic happens, they simply assume that all of (insert label here) people are like that and it's all terrible.

What's unfortunate is that, that kind of behaviour in the media and many times in everyday life is what perpetuates stereotypes and hate.

As for this board in particular, when there was an actual issue with someone being blatantly and constantly racist it was dealt with not by Amelia and Forrest but by the other members of this board.

Personally as the resident "black person" and having read the statement mentioned by Mirren I will say that I don't particularly care. My own family has made comments like the one that was posted. And no, I am not offended. What would offend me more would be for someone to make it personal to me in particular.

Don't be offended on my behalf I'm all growed up and can stand up for myself when warrented. Or at least ask me if something bothers me and don't assume what will and won't offend me. If something offends you, you speak up.

My 2 cents.

[Nudemuse]

because ganstas usually only shoot other brownskinned people, and we know that george bush don't like black people.

Are you being facetious?

[Buster Friendly]

yes, and no.

as long as the majority of gang related crime is black on black, or kept with in other minorities society at large isn't going to care too much. low income white people don't count for much either.

sure gang members will target yuppies if they get the chance, but the main targets of oppertunity are going to be the folks they live around, and see every day.

lots of poor people get shot up and killed everyday, business as usual.

folks like the dork above, and the columbine bozos are novel to the media however, and will draw attention, especially since they target wealthy/middle class kids, and college students.

[Nudemuse]

yes, and no.

as long as the majority of gang related crime is black on black, or kept with in other minorities society at large isn't going to care too much. low income white people don't count for much either.

sure gang members will target yuppies if they get the chance, but the main targets of oppertunity are going to be the folks they live around, and see every day.

lots of poor people get shot up and killed everyday, business as usual.

folks like the dork above, and the columbine bozos are novel to the media however, and will draw attention, especially since they target wealthy/middle class kids, and college students.

Thank you for answering I appreciate it. I have a lot to say on that subject but I won't do it on this thread I don't want to hijack it more than i did. Maybe later I'll start a new thread.

[Buster Friendly]

no problem.

sorry i wasn't clear the first time.

i had to curb my tendency to start ranting about the underlying socio-economic
factors contributing to gang violence, random violence, and the like.

[LoraLie]

Have to start off by saying there's no way on earth he's a goth. You cannot legally be goth and allow yourself to be photographed posing in blue slippers.

now seriously
*shivers*

i wonder if this means there will be more fuel to the pathetic ignorant hate fire i still have one more year of.

i remember a few years ago when i was first starting to take an interest in "odd" things (i called myself goth, but i had no clue about it at all haha), i went through a lot of hell, pulled into the principals office, called names, almost got hit, all that jazz.
Sadly, at the time most of the kids in my class were really religious nuts. & their parents are ten times worse. i heard lots of stupid remarks & some jokes from time to time about how one day i was going to go nuts & kill everyone or blow up the school.

as we grew up i finally noticed it sort of faded. but lately, its kicked back in again.

a few weeks back . . . i had to ride home with my teacher for yearbook crap & her 7th grade son was in the vehicle too & he just asked me "are you goth" when i told him no, he actually argued with me. He then went on to tell me about how all goths are satanists.
i also had a 6th grader tell me that her whole class thought i was "scary".




it bothers me how people can just judge & HATE people for such ignorant reasons
race
religion
& clothes

crazy.

[LoraLie]

& wow, his hair is . . . scary.

[ForrestBlack]

... & her 7th grade son was in the vehicle too & he just asked me "are you goth" when i told him no, he actually argued with me. He then went on to tell me about how all goths are satanists...

... and that's when you turn and ask the child if they are really ignorant, because you read somewhere that achievement scores were at an all time low...

But seriously, most people that have ever done something important kinda scared some folks in some way or another, although not usually with the 'look at my big knife and bad poetry' gambit.

[One Eyed Cat]

First, my kudos to the officer who liquidated this man. The ball is now in the court of anyone with a love for gothic archetypes. It should be explained to the imbecile media why this man had nothing to do with this aesthetic choice and lifestyle. It is a completely irrational assertion. The public wants a scapegoat to feel they have a grasp on these incidents. In doing so, the actual causes of such sociopathology are ignored.

Studies negate these media assertions outright. I have meant to write more on this subject for a number of years. It is high time the facts of a peaceful subculture be presented in defense of those who simply have a love of this aesthetic, literature, music, architecture etc.

If anyone has any sources, they should be compiled. If the media persists in its assertions, there would at least be a comprehensive response.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

As a subculture, I believe we are all irresponsible if we tacitly offer approval for terrible behavior. That was my point.

Absolutely correct. This is no time to slip into moral relativism.

OEC

[Anarkey]

ok just my opinion ,,,


that guy isnt a goth ,,a wannabe maybe .but i dont think he was just my oppinion .
and why was'nt he's mental state not took into qwestion when he was buyin guns .i dont know what kind of gun law they have in Canada ??
(more than likely he got them off the street).but he got ammo for them just the same also.
but still there was sign's that he had issuse's, socially and mentally.
it's sad that some one died from this guy havening prob's and a facination with a tragic event ,and weapons.

but sayin he was a goth is just a scape goat line of press and police bull shit.
we all want to blame others for what we see as being wrong in our eye's .
a vamp wanna be goth, maybe ,
but i see a confused kid with very little freinds and a distorted view of things. kinda sad ,maybe if just 1 person took the time to talk too him and be a freind ,
and listen to he's real problems ,things may have been diffrent ..

but to say it was becuss he was a vamp goth ,and liked first person shooters and other vid games is a line of bull shit ,,

[Mr Karl]

all kinds of stuff happens in montreal

[Mr Karl]

I think serial killers and mass-murderers (and people who mastermind such things, whether or not Charles Manson did) are interesting, but they are not cool and should not be viewed as such.

As a subculture, I believe we are all irresponsible if we tacitly offer approval for terrible behavior. That was my point.

AMEN

[Buster Friendly]

look, i think people are obviously confusing goths with ninjas, http://www.endangeredman.com/source/ninjitsu.html

who apparently DO wear all black, and flip out, and kill people...

shift the blame, shift the blame.

[Pull~My~Hair]

re is one black person on this board and a statement was made about blacks and the size of thier lips. I am sure that made them feel really good.That's disgusting.

wow Im really sorry if that upset anyone, I in no way whatsoever wanted to upset anyone on here at all, it was a quote, and although I quoted it , I in no way agree with the ideaolgy at all!
I only wish I wouldve realized before I typed it it would make anyone uncofortable. IM SORRY EVERYONE!

[Morning Glory]

the whole thing is absurd.... goth is just a trend with kids dying thier hair black and doesn't have any substance to it. oh wait, one shot somebody? yeah, it's all about worshiping satan and killing people.

see the discrepancy with the *mainstream* viewpoint I was sarcastically toting above? if you want to point out that goth is a legitmiate culture with such things as networking and media outlets and a genuinly creative venture and not just a fringe group of trench coat wearing teenagers in the midwest, then it's dismissed. if you want to talk about the way that goth individuals get together to form a mass culutral movement as a negative, then it suddenly becomes the thing that's sweeping the nation.

if it's something that the *mainstream* minority disagrees with and it is doing something genuinley wrong, then it's a HUGE thing. if it's something they disagree with and it's doing something genuinly positive, then it's just a couple of dopes and they don't really matter or get anything done so it's no big deal and not worth taking seriously.