How does nobody have footage of the Virginia Tech shooters yet?

[ForrestBlack]

I know it's unbelievably bad news and all, but I really want to know a bit more than they are reporting. I think it's odd how thin the details are on this.

[Amelia G]

Probably because he (or they) are not "gothic" so it just doesn't have the same sensational discriminatory appeal.

[VoldtaEngler]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f59_1176748483

Apparently someone with a camphone had it on at the time. You can hear the rounds being fired. It is sad news though

[Lady Alias]

On CNN they said that footage was from a CNN I reporter (not sure what "I" means, Investigative?). It's depressing how the numbers keep increasing. I think what they have reported so far is pretty fucked up. I feel really bad for the kids who had to go through all that shit the past month.

Amelia - I highly doubt the news has that mindframe. To not mind it because of that detail? They will sensationalize anything as soon as they get the info. They don't even know if it was a student, though there is a rumour that it was. It is, as they keep saying - the largest school shototing in U.S. history. This will be in the news for a very long time. Also, CNN has been going over past histories of shootings, and Colombine is mentioned very briefly, and no more than the others.

[ForrestBlack]

I means random individual

[Bondage Clown]

This is fucking ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel bad for that college, and I think that everyone (Students and Staff) are in a tough place. But, come on... VT is a HUGE campus, and how the hell are they going to make everyone safe... That is like asking a city.. "Mayor Pickles... How can you make everyone safe in our city."

With a population of over 26,000 it is an unrealistic expectation.

[ForrestBlack]

no id, no cellphone, no fingerprints on record, face disfigured beyond identification, that all sounds very odd, especially given that I think you get fingerprinted in VA for a drivers license.

[Lady Alias]

BC, I can understand that perspective. My university is nowhere near that large (9,000 students), but a large campus nevertheless, and is actually integrated into the city, so non-students are not an uncommon sight. Security is a fucking joke here. The response to the 2000 dorm apartment shooting was to put kids in front of the enterance and ask for ID. As one of these workers, I promise I will run my ass outta there if someone comes through the door with a gun. Granted, we finally got the cameras that were abslutely neccessary, but I know for a fact that people have gotten away with firealarm pulling because faces couldn't be made out on them. Sounds promising.

[Morning Glory]

they said that they were no survielance cameras. I assume that the first job of the police on scene was to deal with the situation, not to get footage to satisfy public curiosity. of course they have all kinds of pictures, but why should they realise that information? Fuck the media vultures and there exploitation ratings grabs. It's really none of our business. let the investigators do thier job, and once they figure it out, then they'll release the information. It's asburd to demand that they give all the details while they are still in the middle of an investigation of a crime that happened today.

[inox]

no id, no cellphone, no fingerprints on record, face disfigured beyond identification, that all sounds very odd, especially given that I think you get fingerprinted in VA for a drivers license.

I renewed a VA license last year for which I was never fingerprinted, when I got it or at renewal.

[Amelia G]

I renewed a VA license last year for which I was never fingerprinted, when I got it or at renewal.

I sorta thought I remembered someone telling me they got fingerprinted in VA now, when we were in town last. Guess I told Forrest wrong. We all get fingerprinted to drive in free and liberal California.

[ForrestBlack]

I renewed a VA license last year for which I was never fingerprinted, when I got it or at renewal.

Interesting. They are pretty extensive out here in CA these days. I had thought they went over to taking fingerprints in VA a while back.

[Trotter]

As a good old resident of Va i can say they dont fingerprint for drivers licenses. In fact the Virginia DMV if anything is behind the ball in a lot of ways, hijackers of 911 obtained licenses from the Virginia DMV, and there is always some scandal going on for employees supplying bogus IDs. I have friends that go to that campus and having visited it myself, the place is massive and when thats combined with a college setting, where doors that are suppossed to be secured are left open and places where id's are suppossed to be swiped arent, lots of opportunities to get into places. But thats college life, you hold the secure door open for the person behind you, you would never think they'd be carrying a weapon to hurt someone. Im sure everyone realizes this can happen anytime at any campus. Sad all around, i wish the police had taken him out.

[Amelia G]

As a good old resident of Va i can say they dont fingerprint for drivers licenses. In fact the Virginia DMV if anything is behind the ball in a lot of ways, hijackers of 911 obtained licenses from the Virginia DMV, and there is always some scandal going on for employees supplying bogus IDs. I have friends that go to that campus and having visited it myself, the place is massive and when thats combined with a college setting, where doors that are suppossed to be secured are left open and places where id's are suppossed to be swiped arent, lots of opportunities to get into places. But thats college life, you hold the secure door open for the person behind you, you would never think they'd be carrying a weapon to hurt someone. Im sure everyone realizes this can happen anytime at any campus. Sad all around, i wish the police had taken him out.

I thought reports were still murky on whether police did or he shot himself?

[ForrestBlack]

... I have friends that go to that campus and having visited it myself, the place is massive and when thats combined with a college setting, where doors that are suppossed to be secured are left open and places where id's are suppossed to be swiped arent, lots of opportunities to get into places. But thats college life, you hold the secure door open for the person behind you, you would never think they'd be carrying a weapon to hurt someone. Im sure everyone realizes this can happen anytime at any campus. Sad all around, i wish the police had taken him out.

Yeah, and I really wouldn't want college to be any other way. I mean, I think the only thing they 'may' have done wrong is to not notify people sooner, but given that they believed that he had fled the school following the first domestic incident, there really isn't any reason they should have suspected he'd come back and start shooting up classrooms. I would hate to see college life dominated by massive security, on the fractional chance that some nutbar 'might' rampage.

[DeviantMommy]

Ok,this is a tradegy,granted..9/11 was a tragedy too,I'm not denying that. But seriously,I hate all the chatter about upping security measures after things like this.

The only way to be completely safe is to be in fucking 1984 people..do we really want that to happen?

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Ben Franklin

[DeviantMommy]

Also..

they said that they were no survielance cameras. I assume that the first job of the police on scene was to deal with the situation, not to get footage to satisfy public curiosity. of course they have all kinds of pictures, but why should they realise that information? Fuck the media vultures and there exploitation ratings grabs. It's really none of our business. let the investigators do thier job, and once they figure it out, then they'll release the information. It's asburd to demand that they give all the details while they are still in the middle of an investigation of a crime that happened today.

Thank you MG,we may not see eye to eye on every subject,but I've never been one of the kids who elbow eachother in the schoolyard to ensure a good view of the fight.

[Sara X]

i too can confirm there's no fingerprinting for VA ID... this whole thing does seem very fishy. one of the first things my mother said was "they said he looked asian, i bet it was a terrorist thing". i hung up on her, but i know that pretty much sums up what's going on in the very tiny brains of every ignorant fuck across the country. god forbid if he's a straight white american conservative protestant... THEN what will they do?!?!

[Mindgames]

Well we now know who he was, so the networks will be working on hour-long specials covering every time he cried in kindergarten or how he once 'looked funny' at a neighbor. It doesn't sound political so I doubt we'll ever know - if it started as a personal issue and escalated in his head, it stayed in his head.

I'm loving watching European networks look 'appropriately amazed' that Americans haven't instantly outlawed guns, sharp sticks and witty comebacks. Interview on the BBC of an NRA rep (who was in a DC studio on sat link) yesterday had the best dialog I've heard in months:-

"So you carry a gun all the time?"
"yeah."
"Why?"
"I'm a ex-deputy, and it's for protection. I don't intend to use it but you never know when you may need to"
"So wait a minute. You came to the studio with a gun?"
"er.. yeah."
"you have a gun? like now? I'm talking to a man with a gun?"
"No, your security man took it. He has one too."
{pause}
"Can I see it?"
"No."

[ForrestBlack]

they said that they were no survielance cameras. I assume that the first job of the police on scene was to deal with the situation, not to get footage to satisfy public curiosity. of course they have all kinds of pictures, but why should they realise that information?

Obviously, I don't think law enforcement should put their energy into gathering footage for the news, it's deeply not their role. They are clearly there to deal with the situation and keep people as safe as possible.

Fuck the media vultures and there exploitation ratings grabs. It's really none of our business. let the investigators do thier job, and once they figure it out, then they'll release the information. It's asburd to demand that they give all the details while they are still in the middle of an investigation of a crime that happened today.

I believe in media and I don't think that makes me a vulture. I think it's important to be informed. Being informed gives us the opportunity to think critically. Now, coverage can be more or less sensationalist, and that's a quality judgement, but I don't think the question should be coverage or not, it should be about good coverage or bad coverage.

Given the nature of the situation, as details later emerged, it makes sense that the coverage was really thin. After all, it was really kind of two seperate incidents, with no indication or warning that the second would be spurred by the first. I don't expect a news blast every time someone gets shot in the leg for getting mixed up in a domestic dispute, but when I posted that, all I knew was that someone had been shooting up the VT campus for the last two to two and a half hours and that thirty plus people were dead, and I thought it was odd that there was so little info available given that much time.

Maybe it's absurd to some people, but fairly immediate coverage of major events is an expectation I have these days. Eventually, my questions were answered, but I don't think it's bad or wrong or even unreasonable that I asked them.

[Lady Alias]

one of the first things my mother said was "they said he looked asian, i bet it was a terrorist thing".

I can't even wrap my head around that statement. Just..wow.

[ForrestBlack]

I do wonder what the news coverage would have been like if somebody had just reached into her purse or backpack and popped Cho Seung-Hui mid-rampage.

[VoldtaEngler]

I do wonder what the news coverage would have been like if somebody had just reached into her purse or backpack and popped Cho Seung-Hui mid-rampage.

Yep..just what we need. Another student carrying a gun

[ForrestBlack]

Yep..just what we need. Another student carrying a gun

It could have saved lives.

[VoldtaEngler]

It could have saved lives.

Yes..but scary to think that another student would be walking around with a gun.

[ForrestBlack]

Yes..but scary to think that another student would be walking around with a gun.

The police didn't stop him and maybe someone else should have.

[Janiac02]

The police didn't stop him and maybe someone else should have.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree, that really it would've been great if someone could have taken control and stopped the situation from going any farther, but though I don't know how it is at Virginia Tech, I would think maybe students don't want the bad stigma that carrying a gun might create. For example, being presumed to be a potential shooter because you are a quiet person and happen to carry a weapon. Hindsight is always 20/20, but looking forward, that situation isn't any more likely to happen at my school than it was a few days ago, and being enlightened with that knowledge, I still wouldn't start carrying a gun.

[Buster Friendly]

I do wonder what the news coverage would have been like if somebody had just reached into her purse or backpack and popped Cho Seung-Hui mid-rampage.

maybe they'd say that he killed himself after killing 31 other people to spare the shooter from the hassle of having to deal with media bullshit.

funny how all these guys kill themselves.

death by cop is a well known pheomena, but you rarely hear about it in the news.

btw dirty harry was a fag.

[Black Spiral Dancer]

How long do you think it will take for them to link the gunman to gaming or goth? One newspaper over here made a throw-away comment about him wearing a BLACK LEATHER JACKET.

[ForrestBlack]

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree...

I saw an interesting entry over on BoingBoing:

[BoingBoing] reader Aaron Krowne says,

Virginia had just outlawed Concealed Carry on campus (At Virginia Tech's behest).

I am a VT alum.

The link is a blog writeup of mine pointing out that Virginia Tech had just "outlawed" concealed carry and reiterated its "gun-free campus" policy. In fact, in response to a scare last fall, the school had disciplined a student who was licensed and carrying a concealed weapon, and since then, agitated to defeat a Virginia law that would permit campus concealed carry.

I've quoted VT spokesman Larry Hincker, including an essay of his last year in a local paper. The stance now looks pretty foolish given the tragic result this zero-tolerance "no guns" policy has produced. Will people ever learn that becoming passive and relying fully on the authorities for protection doesn't work?

[Lady Alias]

How long do you think it will take for them to link the gunman to gaming...

What was that?
Jack Thompson's on it. (Link.)
Oh yeah, of course.

What was the jacket comment?

[Black Spiral Dancer]

One of the survivors said that the gunman was wearing a black vest, maroon hat and a black leather jacket. That was it, but which music genres are normally associated with black leather jackets? Metal or Goth.

[HempKnight]

As someone who is licensed to carry
a concealed handgun, which I do at
every possible legal opportunity, it is
my belief and from personal experience
that it does make for more peaceful
existence... if for nothing more than the
fact that those with bad intentions never
know who is armed or what they will
encounter.

It amazes me when lawmakers will pass
a gun-free zone law, as in it gives only
those with bad intentions a free pass to
carry out their plans with no immediate
resistance from legal licensed by-standers
but instead have to rely solely on the under-
staffed, overworked, generally slow response
times and more often than not, under powered
and out gunned state and local law enforcement
personnel.

I know from experience after I was shot the first
time, in a bar parking lot where I was working, if
the law didn't ban CCW in establishments that
serve alcohol, I would have either never been shot
at all or I could have at least had a better defense.
The law didn't stop the person who shot me from
bringing a pistol into the bar but instead kept me
from having one.

Over the years I have been involved in three shootings,
in my personal life.. once as a victim, twice as the
shooter.. one being a home invasion and another being
a returned fire situation. In my former professional life
both as armed personal security and as a bail bond
enforcement officer, carrying concealed guns was just
part of the job, but in that capacity I never once had to
shoot anyone... draw my weapon, plenty of times.. fire
a warning shot or three, occasionally but never had to
kill anyone.

Now I've lived in countries where the general populace
is forbidden to have firearms, especially handguns,
which again leaves criminals and others with unlawful
intentions to illegally possess the tools of their trade...
leaving dutiful law-abiding unarmed citizens as easy
targets for a multitude of evil deeds.

I'm not saying that we need to return to the old West
gunslinger frontier days, but would it really be so bad
if all those who could pass the psychological testing
and rigorous background checks to be packing a
piece. Statistics show that gun control, bans and
laws simply do not work and in fact increase crime
rates:

"Consider the case of Washington, D.C. In the five years before Washington's ban in 1976, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 per 100,000. In the five years after the ban went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. In fact, while murder rates have fluctuated after 1976, only once have they fallen below what they were that year. Robberies and overall violent-crime rates followed the same trend: Robberies fell from 1,514 to 1,003 per 100,000 leasing up to 1976, and then rose by over 63 percent, up to 1,635. These drops and subsequent increases were much larger than any changes in neighboring Maryland and Virginia. For example, the District's murder rate fell 3.5 to 3 times further than in the neighboring states and rose back 3.8 times greater.

Chicago, which has banned handguns since 1982, also saw violence rise. Chicago's murder rate fell from 27 to 22 per 100,000 in the five years before the law, and then rose slightly to 23. The change is even more dramatic when compared to five neighboring Illinois counties. While robbery data in Chicago isn't available for the years immediately after the ban, since 1985 (the first year for which the FBI has data) robbery rates soared.

The experience in the U.K., an island nation whose borders are much easier to monitor, should also give gun controllers pause. The British government banned handguns in 1997 but recently reported that gun crime in England and Wales nearly doubled in the four years from 1998-99 to 2002-03.

Crime was not supposed to rise after handguns were banned. Yet, since 1996 the serious-violent-crime rate has soared by 69 percent; robbery is up by 45 percent, and murders up by 54 percent. Before the law, armed robberies had fallen by 50 percent from 1993 to 1997, but as soon as handguns were banned the robbery rate shot back up, almost to 1993 levels."

Excerpt from National Review article
"Power to the People"
November 08, 2005
By John R. Lott Jr. & Fern E. Richardson






An armed society is a polite society.
Manners are good when one may have
to back up his acts with his life.
~Robert A. Heinlein~

[HempKnight]

Perfect example of how gun bans do
not work and how those with bad
intentions will do what they do:

Japanese Mayor Dies After Being Shot by Organized Crime Figure

By HIROKO TABUCHI

TOKYO Apr 18, 2007 (AP)— The mayor of the Japanese city of Nagasaki was shot to death in a brazen attack Tuesday by an organized crime chief apparently enraged that the city refused to compensate him after his car was damaged at a public works construction site, police said.

The shooting was rare in a country where handguns are strictly banned and only five politicians are known to have been killed since World War II.

Mayor Iccho Ito, 61, was shot twice in the back at point-blank range outside a train station Tuesday evening, Nagasaki police official Rumi Tsujimoto said.

One of the bullets struck the mayor's heart and he went into cardiac arrest, according to Nagasaki University Hospital spokesman Kenzo Kusano. Ito died after emergency surgery, said Nagasaki prefectural police official Hirofumi Ito.

[Morning Glory]

All I have to say is that while it can't be said that America has the most lax gun laws (many nations have none for or against), to my knowledge it's the only one where armaments are specifically granted in the founding laws of the country. Also, coincidentally or not, it has the highest level of crimes involving the use of guns in the world. You decide.

According to my outdated statistics (1990-1995)--
$ made on the sale of guns per year in the USA: 9,881,000,000
$ made on the sale of guns per day in the USA: 27,071,000
Number of people killed by guns per year in the USA: 37,776
Number of people killed by guns per day in the USA: 103
Number of people killed by guns per hour: 4
One person killed in the USA by a gun every 15 minutes.

[Morning Glory]

that's my post about how I can use "facts" to get my POV across too and act like I'm being impartial. But I don't really need to do that because I can just appeal to logical reasoning instead of leaps of fantasy.

Here's what I have to say on the subject:

shit happens. there's nothing we can do about it. there's a million of you fucking NRA guys strapping and what have you ever done to make society safer or stop crime? just bitch about it when people try to stop gun violence by taking away the guns that failed to protect and only harmed

[ForrestBlack]

I don't think you should put the word facts in quotes, I mean if those statistics are true, which I have no reason to doubt, they are reasonable to take into consideration. I don't personally find them particularly compelling, but the same sun that melts the butter hardens the bricks. I could post a million factual accounts of legal armed citizens protecting themselves and others and you could post stories about people being hurt with their own weapons till the cows come home. But, one thing I think is certain, you will never get the guns away from bad people. Look anywhere in the world. More people may be shot here, many deserve it and many don't. But, it's part of the experiment that is America to try out giving the individuals a little more power and a little more responsibility, and we've been eroding the personal responsibility for years, and that just makes it easier to make a case for taking away the power as well. I'm an advocate for getting back to the original plan, as outlined by those who founded this country.

People are quick to forget that to a large degree, we won our independence, as a nation, through embracing individual power and responsibility, through acts protest, insurrection, and even guerilla warfare. A capitalist democracy is not designed to be secured only from above.

[Buster Friendly]

you could post a million stories about guns protecting private citizens?

okay....GO!


...the cows left early this morning, and won't be back for quite some time, so i'd say you've got plenty of time to go for it.


...interestingly enough mr.Cho was also concerned about the erosion of personal responsibility. apparently, and get this... he saw decadance, and moral decay of the 'priviliged' students around him and decided that some one ought to hold them accountable for their actions.

apparently he also wrote 'disturbingly violent' plays, and creeped out his teachers. i have a feeling that alot more psychological profiling of 'abnormal' students is likely to be the only consequence of this latest incident.

that way we'll know who the 'bad' people are before they have a chance to... write plays that disturb their english teachers.

(btw. i was subjected to this type of horseshit from about 6th grade on... it's enough to make a person go out and legally obtain a gun...)

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

There are a few bad statistics on both sides that should be looked at.

In the UK the rise in firearm offenses includes brandishing or owning an illegal fire arm. If my word of mouth sources are to be believed, this also includes air guns and replica firearms used in crimes. I have not yet seen any statistics that fatal shootings are on the rise.

In Japan a fellow got shot despite strict gun control laws, but this is such a rate occurrence and it was performed by a professional criminal. Japan's overall violent crime rate is obscenely low compared to the US. However that could be as much culture as gun availability.

But for UA statistics. When people bring up violent gun deaths it include a lot it should not. For example, when the police shoot someone whether they are armed with a firearm or not, it is added. Suicides are added and make up an extraordinarily large percentage of gun deaths.

Give us well funded law enforcement we can trust in all areas, remove the stigma of psychiatric treatment, and fight to remove the disenfranchised classes and I guarantee you will see a drop in homicides. But banning guns is flashy, sexy and easier (to pass the law, not to enforce). To be honest, trying to tackle guns before tackling the reasons people shoot each other is a bit backwards unless you just want to see how creative people can get, both for acquiring guns and finding new ways to kill each other.

[HempKnight]

that's my post about how I can use "facts" to get my POV across too and act like I'm being impartial. But I don't really need to do that because I can just appeal to logical reasoning instead of leaps of fantasy.

Here's what I have to say on the subject:

shit happens. there's nothing we can do about it. there's a million of you fucking NRA guys strapping and what have you ever done to make society safer or stop crime? just bitch about it when people try to stop gun violence by taking away the guns that failed to protect and only harmed

And just which NRA guys are you referring to?
Certainly no one here.. or at least not a single
person has even mentioned NRA here. "Facts"
can be skewed, screwed and spun in favour of
any one person or group with a specific purpose
in doing so... but there is quite a lot of hard data
that can't be slanted as easily.

As far as making society safer and stopping crime,
I've done my fair share for my community and
neighbourhood as well as preventing or stopping
crimes in progress... but this thread isn't a pissing
match or about who's got the bigger gun or cock,
shit does happen but it doesn't necessarily have to
end up as tragic as some situations do.

Simply legislation and gun control laws do not
work... assault rifle ban... only affected the 'scary'
looking paramilitary type guns. Take my AK, but the
truth is my .30-.30 is a much more powerful weapon.
Ban large capacity magazines and clips... instead of
allowing 15 rounds only 10 now... so what's the difference
if I have 2 clips or 3 clips of 30 rounds, only takes a couple
of seconds to change them out. Brady law... and I think
Jim Brady getting shot was a horrible thing, but it is still
just one more law that doesn't work. If you take guns out
of the hands of law abiding citizens, it leaves the criminal
element with the upper hand... Brazil being the perfect
example of that.