wtf hapd to punk

[goodthink]

I never said anything about people being statisfied after achieving any kind of reformation of establish culture.

The whole process is much like Hegel described. You have the main culture and you have a culture that runs counter to it, trying to change it. Both cultures collide, the collision causes collusion and a synthesis of ideas and a new culture emerges. However, there is always a counter-culture pushing inward on the established culture. So here is the rub. If the old counter-culture is now part of a synthesized establishment, it is no longer counter to anything, it IS the prevailing culture.

So you have to ask yourself, if I am still X and think X IS counter-culture when it is played in some form on the radio everyday, is it really counter anything? It's like rock and roll for example. Rock used to be counter-culture, everything about rock broke away from the establishment, pushed boundaries, pushed what was decent (Elvis shaking those hips!), and pushed what was acceptable as music. You have to remember, rock in the 50s was n*gger music, it was the devil's creation, it broke down race barriers, pushed aside class structures and was the background music to the civil rights movement and a major paradigm shift in society. What is rock today? Nothing, bland noise. Every band is like the one before it. There is nothing about rock that runs counter to today's culture.

But.. You still have rock fans who think they are rebels cause they listen to The Rolling Stones.

It's not the status quo to point out that paradigm shifts occur, that labeling yourself a non-conformist is conforming to an ideal.

And really, if you think freedom isn't slavery you're wrong. Every person is a slave whether they know it or not, no one acts with a free hand, and the ones that try are locked up and never seen again.

[Bikerpunk]

I'm glad we're agreeing to disagree.

I sure as hell am not dictating anything to anyone.

I'm saying if you have the same aspirations at 40 that you do at 20, you've learned nothing in the previous 20 years.

And that there's some looks that don't age well. I mean, we all know 50 year old women who are still trying to dress like they're 19, and there's a certain patheticness to it.

I'm not saying do or don't do anything.

When I was 15, I was like all "smash the state" and what have you, but 20+ years later I can't see the world that black and white anymore.

[Bikerpunk]

So, essentially, you are saying that a grown up should be in different economic circumstances than they were when they were young?

Yup. Paying your own bills, however elaborate or meager they might be, is the definition of same.

Look, I'm not saying you have to "grow up and get a real job." Be a tattoo artist, or even just live on selling what salvageable stuff people toss away, live in a trailer, whatever. So long as you're living on your own two feet.

That a Gothic look is going to be expected to be more refined over time and

I believe it was Voltaire (not the person here who's probably got me on ignore by now, the "Gothic" musician) who said he knocked off the guyliner because it made him look like an aging drag queen. There's something to be said for that.

It's hard to be a young, oppressed no future now youth when you're missing a third of your mohawk from a bald spot.

that perhaps a smash the state agenda needs a little bit of power than can be expected from a young runaway squatter punk? I mean, if I'm reading your examples right, Beastie Boys have created their own success, so they get to wear the Minor Threat t-shirt and it's ok?

No, I'm saying they can still appreciate Minor Threat, they can even come out and play the same punk songs they started out playing, but do notice that they grew up, old, out, did different things. They did "Fight for your right" and the whole "Free Tibet" thing. They evolved. Grew. Didn't look back.

I can certainly get with the notion that counter-culture needs to acquire some success and power over time so as not to appear pathetic. That was your point, right?

No, it wasn't.

[OliX]

world was never black and white
it's in different shades of gray ...

one thing I can't understand is people judging me for my look when they get to know me... not before knowing me :/

If I could chose I would wear shinobi style clothes, comfortable, warm and quiet....

[ForrestBlack]

But.. You still have rock fans who think they are rebels cause they listen to The Rolling Stones.

Yeah, but you are just playing semantic games. It's entirely reasonable to appreciate the rebellious origins and historical counter-cultural stance of social art like music and not be some sort of hypocrite. Finding social identification within that context with other people who also appreciate the historical political stance is hardly just calling yourself a rebel. I can appreciate the stance of a band like The Clash without nullifying their political significance and still be inspired by some of the notions communicated in even their hits, same goes for Rolling Stones and many others.

It's not the status quo to point out that paradigm shifts occur, that labeling yourself a non-conformist is conforming to an ideal.

And really, if you think freedom isn't slavery you're wrong. Every person is a slave whether they know it or not, no one acts with a free hand, and the ones that try are locked up and never seen again.

That is blatantly ignorant and definitively false. Plus, you shouldn't press people to shorthand their self identification to a one word label and then pat yourself on the back for supposedly debunking it with complex sociological positions put forth by the likes of Hagel.

[OliX]

locked up and never seen again?!? where are you living? you should never take everything you read for granted....

[goodthink]

Yeah, but you are just playing semantic games. It's entirely reasonable to appreciate the rebellious origins and historical counter-cultural stance of social art like music and not be some sort of hypocrite. Finding social identification within that context with other people who also appreciate the historical political stance is hardly just calling yourself a rebel. I can appreciate the stance of a band like The Clash without nullifying their political significance and still be inspired by some of the notions communicated in even their hits, same goes for Rolling Stones and many others.

I didn't say people can't appreciate music for it's significance, or have any kind of social identification with others, or acknowledge that that form of music was, at one time, counter-culture. I did say, people think they ARE rebels, and that rock is STILL counter-culture. It's not a game of semantics. These are very real, pronounced differences in definition you are presenting. You're basically insisting that the past tense is equal to the present tense and any argument otherwise is semantic, and it's not. Rock is not counter-cultural anymore, presenlty it is a huge part of the established culture.

That is blatantly ignorant and definitively false. Plus, you shouldn't press people to shorthand their self identification to a one word label and then pat yourself on the back for supposedly debunking it with complex sociological positions put forth by the likes of Hagel.

I am not pressing anyone into anything. People voluntarily say they are non-conformist, I am pointing out how labeling yourself a non-conformist is conformist, by definition and through action.

What's more Hegel, Marx and Kuhn, more-or-less describe how various integrations of society occur and to some extent why.

[One Eyed Cat]

"It" is alive and well. It will die when the last beautiful soul, be he/she 16 or 100, dreams his/her last dream. It isn't about any word or concept I see mentioned. It isn't about age. It isn't my right to declare anything dead. Hell, it isn't even my right to define it. I don't know what it means to "grow up". I believe in evolution. I'll "grow up" after I'm dead. Even then, others will dream dreams. It matters not what they call them.

I never called my dreams by name. As I live one out, a new one appears. So it will be.

J

PS: If you'll all excuse me, I reckon I'll pick up a Cometbus and play a few power chords on my classical guitar at __ years old

[ForrestBlack]

No, I'm saying they can still appreciate Minor Threat, they can even come out and play the same punk songs they started out playing, but do notice that they grew up, old, out, did different things..

So, the hairstyle, which is free, is bad and shouldn't last, and eyeliner which is practically free, shouldn't last, but buying a vintage t-shirt is ok? That's kind of consumerist and really speaks to the commodification of subculture.

...and yeah, I'm kind of just messing with you...

But seriousy, the mohawk doesn't make the punk a punk, so a flaw in the mohawk doesn't destroy their identity. To denounce someone's cultural identity because they are perhaps losing their hair is shallow and mean, not to mention kind of pointless and wrong. Voltaire put out a handbook on Gothic interior design, so I'm not sure dropping the eyeliner was a huge move away from being Goth identified (or not being an aging spooky queen for that matter). It was simply a style choice. The eyeliner kind of clashed with the carefully designed facial hair, IMHO. I mean, I think he looks nice and spooky, but I don't think he really illustrates your point. The Beastie Boys are artists, not really specific cultural icons, and that's ok. They can be into an eclectic mix of influences, but they hardly have the sort of unified message a more passionate political band might have.

But, on some level, I can't help but feel like you are saying that it's bad to care about things on a cultural level. That making any sort of commitment to a culture you enjoy is somehow a mistake once you reach an adult age. That is a depressing and I think dangerous view.

[VoltaireBlue]

If you'll all excuse me, I reckon I'll pick up a Cometbus and play a few power chords on my classical guitar at __ years old

I love Aaron! That's the guy I was talking about in my above post! I really hope mine and his paths cross again, he's cool as shit.... and I will continue to buy his zines till he dies. did you know he wrote a book? I had the biggest crush on him in highschool.... after school, I used to hang out at cody's books on days he delivered zines.... then we became friends later.... he rules!

[ForrestBlack]

I didn't say people can't appreciate music for it's significance, or have any kind of social identification with others, or acknowledge that that form of music was, at one time, counter-culture. I did say, people think they ARE rebels, and that rock is STILL counter-culture. It's not a game of semantics. These are very real, pronounced differences in definition you are presenting. You're basically insisting that the past tense is equal to the present tense and any argument otherwise is semantic, and it's not. Rock is not counter-cultural anymore, presenlty it is a huge part of the established culture.

No, I'm saying you are being absolutist in your interpretation. Who really thinks they are genuinely throwing the Boston Tea Party when they wear their Rage Against the Machine t-shirt? On a mass culture level, people do know the difference. That doesn't mean they don't feel a little rebellious for embracing and even spreading some of the politically charged messages of the band.

I am not pressing anyone into anything. People voluntarily say they are non-conformist, I am pointing out how labeling yourself a non-conformist is conformist, by definition and through action.

But, people like you latch on to cultural labels and then pat yourself on the back for taking a more complex and often wordy approach to supposedly debunking them. If you want people to respect your position, you have to respect that the people you are talking about might also be more complicated than purely 'punks' or 'rebels'. A non-conformist is a non-conformist, unless you get all purist on the definition. That's like saying there can be no rebel alliance because rebels by a dictionary definition can only rebel and therefor not work together for a common goal. It's semantic nonsense.

What's more Hegel, Marx and Kuhn, more-or-less describe how various integrations of society occur and to some extent why.

I should hope they do, that being their job and all. But, just because opinionated socio-political observers have opinions and wrote them down, doesn't mean they support your position at all.

[One Eyed Cat]

I love Aaron! That's the guy I was talking about in my above post! I really hope mine and his paths cross again, he's cool as shit.... and I will continue to buy his zines till he dies. did you know he wrote a book?

Yeah I knew you meant Aaron. I originally responded to your post, but I just wanted to be in context. I only met him a few times, but his journey is beyond beautiful. If I die on the shitter reading a Cometbus, I will die happy.

Pinhead Gunpowder played a few shows in L.A. recently. I fully intend to fly out if they play the Bay Area. Aaron's melodic screams are fucking amazing. I'll message you if I hear of them playing anywhere. I did post a bulletin of a cam video. Unfortunately, Aaron was not in it. (You can hear him yowl though!)

He wrote a book separately? I will have to get it. I know some 'zines are now compiled as books also.

J

[Bikerpunk]

Forrest, my brain hurts.

I was trying to suggest that certain things age well and certain things don't.

I wasn't trying to suggest consumerist Hegelian whatevers or what have you. I'm glad you're admitting you're deliberately fucking with me, I'd hate to think I have to avoid all potentially problematic conversational topics for fear that people would think I was trying to dictate policy to anyone.

I ride Harleys and rock tattoos. My motto is, whatever blows your hair back.

[VoltaireBlue]

Yeah I knew you meant Aaron. I originally responded to your post, but I just wanted to be in context. I only met him a few times, but his journey is beyond beautiful. If I die on the shitter reading a Cometbus, I will die happy.

Pinhead Gunpowder played a few shows in L.A. recently. I fully intend to fly out if they play the Bay Area. Aaron's melodic screams are fucking amazing. I'll message you if I hear of them playing anywhere. I did post a bulletin of a cam video. Unfortunately, Aaron was not in it. (You can hear him yowl though!)

He wrote a book separately? I will have to get it. I know some 'zines are now compiled as books also.

J

pinhead gunpowder is fucking great...I used to go see them play at gilman. have you heard anything from his first band Crimpshrine? They're one of my faves... saw them at gilman too....

I miss aaron... he would get a good laugh out of my living in north cackalackey though... he'd laugh his ass off... and then ask me where the food not bombs was....
I love that guy.

[One Eyed Cat]

pinhead gunpowder is fucking great...I used to go see them play at gilman. have you heard anything from his first band Crimpshrine? They're one of my faves... saw them at gilman too....

I miss aaron... he would get a good laugh out of my living in north cackalackey though... he'd laugh his ass off... and then ask me where the food not bombs was....
I love that guy.

I never saw Crimpshrine, but I do enjoy their music. They influenced a lot of people around me. We've definitely been in the same room if you saw P.G. at Gilman. Aaron has a macabre love for MPLS (thus MPLS song) etc. I'm sure you'll have more good times with him when the time is just right.

J

[VoltaireBlue]

I never saw Crimpshrine, but I do enjoy their music. They influenced a lot of people around me. We've definitely been in the same room if you saw P.G. at Gilman.
J

that's a definite possibility

[One Eyed Cat]

that's a definite possibility

I messaged you. I'm pretty sure you'll remember the incident haha.

J

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

I'm saying if you have the same aspirations at 40 that you do at 20, you've learned nothing in the previous 20 years.

And that there's some looks that don't age well. I mean, we all know 50 year old women who are still trying to dress like they're 19, and there's a certain patheticness to it.

Maybe at 20 I had really good aspirations. I work at the job I do so that, if i choose, I can dye my hair blue, or dress like I was 19, or pierce my nose, whatever. And my aspirations at 20 were about the same as they are now. I have learned quite a bit but the most important thing I have learned is you don't give up doing the things you love just because you are older.

There is a saying that a young man who is not liberal has no heart, and an old man who is not conservative has no brains. I think that saying is crap and always has been. Some things change, but the stuff I like did not change just cause I got older. Now I am gonna go play Dungeons and Dragons or X box or go to a club or something.

[Bikerpunk]

Maybe at 20 I had really good aspirations. I work at the job I do so that, if i choose, I can dye my hair blue, or dress like I was 19, or pierce my nose, whatever. And my aspirations at 20 were about the same as they are now. I have learned quite a bit but the most important thing I have learned is you don't give up doing the things you love just because you are older.

There is a saying that a young man who is not liberal has no heart, and an old man who is not conservative has no brains. I think that saying is crap and always has been. Some things change, but the stuff I like did not change just cause I got older. Now I am gonna go play Dungeons and Dragons or X box or go to a club or something.

I didn't say not have the same principles, ideals, motivations, etc.

I said if you were still doing the same ah fuck it I give up

(quits thread)

[DreamKrusher]

Nostalgia killed punk. Just like every other music scene.

Seriously, as we are blaming whatever pseudo punk band we hear on the radio ask yourself this, how much punk was on the radio back when punk was cool? Sure Hot Topic and friends commercialized whatever aspects of punk they could, but what does that have to do with music?

Meanwhile some really talented punk bands are out there playing clubs for very little money on indie labels or self produced, just like always. Once if a while a punk band will make it big, just like always.

Punk didn't die because kids started buying manic panic and creepers, it died when people started sitting around wondering why punk died.

Dude, in the 80's, you didn't wanna fuck w/ a punk rocker. We were mean, broke things, broke into places, always were in packs of at least 4 or 5, we spit on suit-n-tie ppl, we generally raised hell wherever we went. Anarchy was a creed, not a patch on ur jacket. wherever we congregated, people avoided us, if they were smart. There were no catchy hooks in the songs we wrote, we didn't push our hair into faux-hawks, and we certainly didn't give a damn about what anyone thought about us, In fact, we eagerly anticipated the inevitable pickup truck full of shitkickers or jocks that would pull over and try to jump us. Punk faded because ppl got comfortable. the spirit died. I think Rancid and NOFX and similar bands are total faggots. Give me Black Flag, GBH, MDC, Exploited, Discharge, Cro-Mags, RKL, Fear, Broken Bones, Mentors, all that shit that had that impetus and charge. If you become successful as a punk band, ur doing it wrong. Most people aren't supposed to like listening to ur music. Oh, how I long for die-hard motherfuckers like G.G. Allin.... The only thing that somewhat approaches the fire and spit of the old days are alot of the NS bands coming out ov the east coast and Finland.... Remember how shitty those Black Flag guitar leads were? That's what made it awesome.

[ForrestBlack]

Dude, in the 80's, you didn't wanna fuck w/ a punk rocker. We were mean, broke things, broke into places, always were in packs of at least 4 or 5, we spit on suit-n-tie ppl, we generally raised hell wherever we went. Anarchy was a creed, not a patch on ur jacket. wherever we congregated, people avoided us, if they were smart. There were no catchy hooks in the songs we wrote, we didn't push our hair into faux-hawks, and we certainly didn't give a damn about what anyone thought about us, In fact, we eagerly anticipated the inevitable pickup truck full of shitkickers or jocks that would pull over and try to jump us. Punk faded because ppl got comfortable. the spirit died. I think Rancid and NOFX and similar bands are total faggots. Give me Black Flag, GBH, MDC, Exploited, Discharge, Cro-Mags, RKL, Fear, Broken Bones, Mentors, all that shit that had that impetus and charge. If you become successful as a punk band, ur doing it wrong. Most people aren't supposed to like listening to ur music. Oh, how I long for die-hard motherfuckers like G.G. Allin.... The only thing that somewhat approaches the fire and spit of the old days are alot of the NS bands coming out ov the east coast and Finland.... Remember how shitty those Black Flag guitar leads were? That's what made it awesome.

In your opinion, is it still ok to be into those bands? Is it still punk to be into that scene?

[Morning Glory]

In my opinion it's not OK to take FEAR seriously.

[Black Spiral Dancer]

Old punks don't die. They just need more safety pins.

[DreamKrusher]

In your opinion, is it still ok to be into those bands? Is it still punk to be into that scene?

To be honest, my musical tastes have grown alot since I was a teenager...
I used to make fum of people who listened to Skinny Puppy, now I can't go more than a few days without popping in my OhGr cd. I have seen alot of people who were "hardcore" punx turn into heroin addicts, trainhoppers, and fall right through the cracks. There doesn't seem to bo the sense of unity in the scene that there once was.... I still occasionally listen to Black Flag, and Cro-Mags, but like I said, my tastes have grown. Bands like BatteryCage, Mindless Self Indulgence, and Acid Bath didn't exist back then.... for the time, those bands I named in my earlier reply was the hardest shit u could get ur hands on... I still remember hearing my first Slayer cd. I was blown away. Yeah, sure, it's still ok to be into those bands.... but is there even a cohesive 'scene' to be into? It seems like everyone's band competes with each other, and talk shit about each other at their seperate afterparties.... I dunno.... I'm in my 30's, I look like I'm 25, my g/f is 21, and I do more drugs now than I did then.... I live in a world not dictated by other's standards.... I would say I haven't heard a good punk band for a while... Well, my g/f's band, Laughing Demon, is pretty raw, but I don't really dig thru the punk section at Rasputina's anymore, you know? I went from punk to metal, to 90's whatev (Jane's Addiction, early Pumpkins, Melvins, Alice in Chains,etc) to death metal/speedcore.. now I still like teh guitars n all, but I have opened up my horizons to alot of electronic/industrial music... I mean, yeah, there was Ministry, Front Line Assembly, etc.. but those albums sound shoddy compared to today's rivethead stuff... I don't really know what 'punk' is anymore...
There's alot of scene kids, the whole DIY types, but I think that 'punk' is a just a stylish way of saying your homeless.... I dunno, take what I say with a grain of salt, you know? I slapped Morpheus' hand and took the red pill AND the blue pill

[DreamKrusher]

In my opinion it's not OK to take FEAR seriously.

Dude, they were something to listen to while ditching high school and kicking back at that one chick's house, rummaging thru her parent's liquor cabinet.... I don't take any punk seriously..... The only thing that gives me chills is Wumpscut, OhGr, and BatteryCage

[KilLAtomiK]

i like pop punk because it makes me happy so fuck you guys

















i still love you guys tho

[OliX]

pop punk is great
glam teenage punk is even better

[Black Spiral Dancer]

Most people I know from our Goth club are old Goths so like aom old punk songs as well. It's a rare day that no punk songs are played.

[GnArKiLL]

Dude, in the 80's, you didn't wanna fuck w/ a punk rocker. We were mean, broke things, broke into places, always were in packs of at least 4 or 5, we spit on suit-n-tie ppl, we generally raised hell wherever we went. Anarchy was a creed, not a patch on ur jacket. wherever we congregated, people avoided us, if they were smart. There were no catchy hooks in the songs we wrote, we didn't push our hair into faux-hawks, and we certainly didn't give a damn about what anyone thought about us, In fact, we eagerly anticipated the inevitable pickup truck full of shitkickers or jocks that would pull over and try to jump us. Punk faded because ppl got comfortable. the spirit died. I think Rancid and NOFX and similar bands are total faggots. Give me Black Flag, GBH, MDC, Exploited, Discharge, Cro-Mags, RKL, Fear, Broken Bones, Mentors, all that shit that had that impetus and charge. If you become successful as a punk band, ur doing it wrong. Most people aren't supposed to like listening to ur music. Oh, how I long for die-hard motherfuckers like G.G. Allin.... The only thing that somewhat approaches the fire and spit of the old days are alot of the NS bands coming out ov the east coast and Finland.... Remember how shitty those Black Flag guitar leads were? That's what made it awesome.

oh god, i dont even know where to begin on this one.

[Black Spiral Dancer]

When the punks started emerging in the scene, there were no "punk" bands around. The Clash said when they were still thinking of setting up a band, the music they were listening to at the time was Ska/Two-Tone. People were sick and tired of the same sort of shit that was being churned out in the "discos" and Ska/Two-Tone was an Underground sound. Much as is happening today, the youth was not connecting with the synthetic sounds and bright flashing lights in the mainstream clubs.

[Morning Glory]

after having this thread every six months, I always come to the same conclusion:

that punk died on the operating table.

[DreamKrusher]

oh god, i dont even know where to begin on this one.

Really? Grow a pair ov balls and speak up, then... Maybe you hung out with softies back in the day, but the friends that I considered punk back in the day were pretty much miscreants and delinquents... we didn't sit around at the skatepark, or beg for money on the corner, hoping our freshly pierced lip would bring in some hipster handouts... we weren't political, vegan, activist, or agenda-oriented.... just pissed-off, bored, malicious valley kids. We drank at the park, went to shows, and got in fights. We didn't go to protests, make xeroxed 'zines, or want to 'make a difference'..... we were 80's kids, and the music was our outlet... like I said, it was the rawness and brick-in-the-face brutality of the music that attracted us. To tell you the truth (and I know I'm gonna catch shit for this one), I always thought that the Dead Kennedys sucked, and that Jello was a bit of a whiner.... Btw, what's with all these Misfits knock-off bands? Do you really have to show how much u like them by wearing skull gloves and slicking your hair back (or forwards, as the case may be)? Let it die. Punkabilly is for people who kinda like the Misfits, but think the Stray Cats were cool, too... Nobody has any originality anymore.... Everything is a knock-off ov a knock-off...
Btw, I highly recommend the japanese band Dir en Grey.... they don't really fit into a style, but I guarantee that alot of u may loke them if you listen to the album 'Withering to Death'........ Well, that's my two cents worth, at least for this hour....

[DreamKrusher]

oh god, i dont even know where to begin on this one.

Though I do have to say, u at least have good taste in film... Romper Stomper is way boss

[DreamKrusher]

By the way, Satan loves you all, as do I.... Gawd, I'm bored.... Btw, you guys remember that 80's flick Suburbia? I just had had to pick up a copy the other day out ov pure nostalgia... that, and Repo Man... EMILIOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
lol

[OliX]

never heard...........................................

[ForrestBlack]

Repo Man is a great movie



__________________________________________________ ___
“We came to smash everything and ruin your life. God sent us.”
-Sonny Jim (Romper Stomper)

[ForrestBlack]

...Give me Black Flag, GBH, MDC, Exploited, Discharge, Cro-Mags, RKL, Fear, Broken Bones, Mentors, all that shit that had that impetus and charge. ... Oh, how I long for die-hard motherfuckers like G.G. Allin...

I hear you on all that, although I kind of disagree with your "If you become successful as a punk band, ur doing it wrong." statement, but mostly from a definition of success perspective. I think those band did archive their own success, it just isn't the same success a pop band sets out to achieve. Punk doesn't equal fail to me. It's just not about wholesale buying into the greater culture's more shallow benchmarks.

Some of the tastes you are communicating seem a little more 'foot soldier' to me, and that's ok, a lot of the bands I love fall into that realm as well, but I do think there is also room in Punk for more political bands, so long as they are not to weak.

[VoltaireBlue]

By the way, Satan loves you all, as do I.... Gawd, I'm bored.... Btw, you guys remember that 80's flick Suburbia? I just had had to pick up a copy the other day out ov pure nostalgia... that, and Repo Man... EMILIOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
lol

repo man is great... so is valley girl.

[Bikerpunk]

I visited Cali PURELY on the basis of Repo Man.

[Amelia G]

repo man is great... so is valley girl.

Normal fuckin' people. I hate 'em.

Repo Man is one of my favorite movies of all time.

I sorta wanted Nicholas Cage to be hotter when I first saw Valley Girl and I thought his freaky ex he fools around with in the nightclub was way more desirable than Miss 818. His looks sort of work better now than they did then somehow though.