circumcision / body modification

[Thistle Harlequin]

if as an infant, is taking away a childs rights... or not?

& piercing a newborns ears (non-consentual i.e. parents/infant)... = body modification?

[ForrestBlack]

My off the cuff theory is that as children, they are under the age of consent, so it's really in the hands of the parents. Which isn't to judge right or wrong, just a matter of rights.

[Mindgames]

Ear piercing isn't that relevent as if the kid doesn't like it in future they'll just heal. Permanent modifications are a matter of society and religion, and so IMHO should stay as private as the parents want it to be. If they're seeking approval from the world then fine - comment about it. If they believe what they're doing is intrinsic to their way of life and has been for generations, then frankly you're not in a position to object provided whatever they're doing is legal. People have been doing it for aeons, from Chinese foot binding and African neck stretching to Jewish circumcision - the methods that are still legal are the ones that 'society' has accepted, and that's different for Ethiopia or Indiana, but from the viewpoint of the people living there it's no more or less 'right'.

mG

[Buster Friendly]

not being jewish, i'm kind of pissed that they stole my foreskin anyway.

my parents don't remember being asked.

[Bondage Clown]

I think that it is the childs decision to be made in the future.. I was never asked, but I will not make that mistake with my son.

[Amaltheas_Attic]

I think it causes a lot more trauma having it done as an adult than as a kid, and with AIDS and everything else, religion or not, I think some parents are just trying to give their kids the best chance possible. That said, it's still a matter of preference for the parent and while I don't agree with the ear piercing thing, at least there's some argument for the benefits of circumcision. There are none to ear piercing (unless you have twins, in which case, it's better than a tattoo on the heel which some parents resort to.)

[Pull~My~Hair]

i didnt get Kaden circumcised I think its really mean....why would you peel your sons penis? wtf.
Plus there are a ton of good nerve endings in foreskin,which makes sex more enjoyable. Another thing is, Im not jewish.

And people always say "well its easier to keep clean blah blah" I say "you teach your kid to clean behind their ears, why dont you teach him to clean his penis?"

I personally thing that it is a mean, useless, and primitive practice.


as for as ear peircing, I have no issue wth it..its not permanent, and if you get it done when they are babies, you dont have to worry about them messing with it while it heals and whatnot when they are older.

[Velvet-Tongue]

I'm quite happy not having a foreskin. Cleaner, looks better etc.

[suicidal_tendencies]

i dont have a penis so

[suicidal_tendencies]

no but seriously if i ever have a son itll be his choice. not something i would want done if i had one.

[Buster Friendly]

over all the penis is pretty low maintence. i wouldn't have minded an extra flap... especially if it meant a possible 27% increase in tactile sensation.

dammit.

[Billy_longbrownhair]

I think circumcision is cool. My lady loves the head of my cock and I would not mwant to have to go through the circumcision as an adult...

Like fucking OUCH man!

[Morning Glory]

women, minorities and children aren't people, they're property, so as a white man I can do whatever I want with them.

oh, I guess they are giving women and minorities rights now? good for them, they get off the hook. too bad for kids.

[Satiate]

well, growing up as a tomboy in a house full of "free spirits"... ie, discussing the body and seeing random family members naked once in awhile wasn't shameful... i will say, since no one in my family is circumcised, i FREAKED OUT when i saw my first circumcised boyfriend... i even asked him "What's wrong with your dick?" I still think circumcised dicks look funny to me... Depending on how badly the job has been done, sometimes it's hard for me to not giggle...

And for the record, if you don't circumcise your child, you "train" the skin by pushing back the foreskin and it will eventually stay back on it's own, and not only is that a bit more clean, there's not much difference in the overall appearance... For the "dirty" part, well, I'll be honest, since I'm able to say I've slept with guys on both sides of the fence, it's usually the guys who are circumcised that are dirty... Guys who aren't USUALLY take extra care to keep it clean...

There are points for and against circumcision, most points are FOR NOT circumcision... Me personally, I could not do that to my son... I once had a debate with a boyfriend over if we had a son about circumcision... I told him, "Well, if it's so important to you to butcher our son's penis, then you will take him to get it done and you will tend to his care in healing afterwards..." His response, "I can't be in the room when they do that..." "Well, why not?" "It's going to be painful for him..." "Exactly, and in that, I refuse to participate, too."

*sigh*

But this topic is a just a rather, um, weird debate I'm used to having whenever it comes up...

I'm just against body mod, unless YOU choose to do it to yourself... It's a decision you will live with for the rest of your life, and 1 in every 20 circumcisions result in some form of deformaty... Whether it leaves a small hole(much like a piercing), to areas of deadened nerves, to effecting the orgasm, to some children actually have to get skin grafts because too much skin was removed... I say, if your kid grows up and it bothers or hinders him so much he wants it done, then let him make the choice to do it... Much like a boob or nose job...

My grandfathers, my uncles, my cousins, my brother... Every family member of mine isn't... Not one of them have a problem with the ladies... Not one of them feel inadequate over it... And if you talk to the women in the family, not one of them has any complaints either...

Eh, but to each their own...

[Toe Cutter]

women, minorities and children aren't people, they're property, so as a white man I can do whatever I want with them.

oh, I guess they are giving women and minorities rights now? good for them, they get off the hook. too bad for kids.

Please... not this shit again. That is such a bunch of bullshit, and your self loathing makes me laugh. Speak for your fucking self.

[mmmcherry]

And for the record, if you don't circumcise your child, you "train" the skin by pushing back the foreskin and it will eventually stay back on it's own

i heard youre not sposed to do that actually until it does it on its own... apparently it can do major damage... i dunno really, not having a penis myself, but... yeah.
i highly doubt i would circumsize my kid... so yeah.
i dont think i have to worry about getting his ears pierced when hes a baby heh... (funny as my dads reaction would be... he would FREAK haha) so yeah.

[Satiate]

i heard youre not sposed to do that actually until it does it on its own... apparently it can do major damage... i dunno really, not having a penis myself, but... yeah.
i highly doubt i would circumsize my kid... so yeah.
i dont think i have to worry about getting his ears pierced when hes a baby heh... (funny as my dads reaction would be... he would FREAK haha) so yeah.

yes, actually, if you "push" or "force" it, you will harm your child... but like any part of your body, you must "train" it... like say, stretching before you work out... there's actually a proper way of doing it... so that after a period of time, it will pull and stay back on it's own, with no harm to the child... but if you do that, you will prevent most of the common worries of infection, "lack" of attractiveness, etc. that seem to be the biggest con's on not circumcision... as as the child gets older, just like you teach your child to wash their hands before dinner, you teach your child to keep it clean...

ahhh... found the best article for you...

here you go from kidshealth.org:

Caring for an Uncircumcised Penis
As with a penis that's circumcised, an uncircumcised one should be kept clean. Also, no cotton swabs, astringents, or any special bath products are needed - simple soap and warm water every time you bathe your baby will suffice.

However, you should never forcibly pull back the foreskin to clean beneath it. Instead, gently tense it against the tip of the penis and wash off any smegma (the whitish "beads" of dead skin cells mixed with the body's natural oil). Over time, the foreskin will retract on its own so that it can be pulled away from the glans toward the abdomen. This happens at different times for different children, but most boys can retract their foreskins by the time they're 5 years old.

As your son grows up, teach him to wash beneath the foreskin by gently pulling it back from the glans, rinsing the glans and the inside of the foreskin with soap and warm water, then pulling the foreskin back over the head of the penis.

[mmmcherry]

fabulous information thanx satiate!!

[Amaltheas_Attic]

I've been with an uncircumcised guy, and seen others and theirs defintiely didn't stay back on their own. I wonder if that's just a weird string of luck on my part or if that's just a "some people" kind of thing.

[Annabel Elaine]

I had my ears done extremely young at around 3. my mum desided that i would want them done later any way, and that it would be more simple to clean and care for them when i wasn't so mobile.
As for circumcision, im not bothered- if it is for religious reasons then fine. however, female circumcision is a dreadful pratice as it effects the way that the body functions- in often awful ways.

If the practice is done well and does not harm the child badly or effect them emotionaly, then fine, do it but always have the welfare of your child at heart.

[Satiate]

I've been with an uncircumcised guy, and seen others and theirs defintiely didn't stay back on their own. I wonder if that's just a weird string of luck on my part or if that's just a "some people" kind of thing.

there's always an exception to the rule, but it sounds to me as if you had a guy who never tended the snake in his garden, nor did his parents when raising him... i've only seen one where it didn't stay back... and considering my, *coughs*history*coughs*, when i've been single... well, let me just say, i know a lot about penis, cock and dick... (yes, there are VERY distinct catergories here...)

[Satiate]

I had my ears done extremely young at around 3. my mum desided that i would want them done later any way, and that it would be more simple to clean and care for them when i wasn't so mobile.
As for circumcision, im not bothered- if it is for religious reasons then fine. however, female circumcision is a dreadful pratice as it effects the way that the body functions- in often awful ways.

If the practice is done well and does not harm the child badly or effect them emotionaly, then fine, do it but always have the welfare of your child at heart.

i can go on for weeks on female cicumcision *shudders* the mere idea of that being done to small children not only makes me cry, but makes me so angry...

but then again, the cultures that heavily promote that, also are the cultures where women have no rights and are treated worse than cattle/dogs...

okay, okay... i'm stopping now before i mini-rant...

[Satiate]

fabulous information thanx satiate!!

no problem... i'm one of those who tries to pull facts out with my opinion... not necessarily to change one's mind, but at least so that other's can understand/respect why i think the way i think...

let me know if you are looking for more information on this subject, it's one of the few i've actually spoken on in length...

[mmmcherry]

heh if you feel up to finding the info, go for it... PM me the results

[TheQuietPlace]

smegma

Thats a neat word.

[Satiate]

heh if you feel up to finding the info, go for it... PM me the results

Sorry for not PM'ing you, but it's telling me that I'm not authorized to do so...

So, try checking out these two links as well as the previous link I threw up here they are the most informativ and give some unbiased opinions:

http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/FAQ/

[Annabel Elaine]

i can go on for weeks on female cicumcision *shudders* the mere idea of that being done to small children not only makes me cry, but makes me so angry...

but then again, the cultures that heavily promote that, also are the cultures where women have no rights and are treated worse than cattle/dogs...

okay, okay... i'm stopping now before i mini-rant...

I agree completely, its good to have some one so informed on the topic, i am learning something new everytime i click on this post!

[Amaltheas_Attic]

there's always an exception to the rule, but it sounds to me as if you had a guy who never tended the snake in his garden, nor did his parents when raising him... i've only seen one where it didn't stay back... and considering my, *coughs*history*coughs*, when i've been single... well, let me just say, i know a lot about penis, cock and dick... (yes, there are VERY distinct catergories here...)

I wonder if it's regional? You're on the West coast and I'm on the east...

[Velvet-Tongue]

Smegma

God...Thats pretty horrible sounding.

[mmmcherry]

Sorry for not PM'ing you, but it's telling me that I'm not authorized to do so...

So, try checking out these two links as well as the previous link I threw up here they are the most informativ and give some unbiased opinions:

http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/FAQ/

yeah sorry i forgot you have to have a certain number of posts before you can PM.. heh... but cool, ill check out that info in the morning... i can barely keep my eyes open long enough to eat my toast and apricot jam... mmmmm jam... i do love jam

haha and yeah... smegma is pretty nasty sounding... guhhh... makes me wanna hurl just thinking about it, tho ive personally never encountered any... thankfully!

[Morning Glory]

[QUOTE=Toe Cutter]Please... not this shit again. That is such a bunch of bullshit, and your self loathing makes me laugh. Speak for your fucking self. [/QUOTE

not sure about the self loathing... but yeah you got me. as soon as I posted that I realized that it went too far from witty irreverance and just came off as crass propaghanda.

this has been brought up before and it may be a bit preachy, but I honestly believe that age shouldn't be a factor in human rights. simply put, a persons physical and emotional self belongs to them alone. to be more specific to this issue, a person should not be operated on medically without their consent, unless it's a situation where that surgery is life-saving and the patient is not able to offer consent. I don't think that this procedure fits the bill.

It's not quite as black and white as that though, because I recognize the importance of cultural traditions in a society which may be uncomfortable, difficult or damaging to the individual, but have a larger social impact on the harmony of the members of the society as a whole. In those circumstances sometimes for us (industrial civilization) to impart our values and culture is more damaging to the farbic of that community than the practice that we oppose.

such as female circumsition. I'm not saying that it's right, just that is something to think about when discussing the matter. coming from a country that existed on the pretense of equality and didn't grant that to women for 200 years, I'd say that our value system comes from a pretty skewed place and it might not be the best to judge others with.