Do you value justice or forgiveness more?

[Amelia G]

Justice and forgiveness are both often viewed as virtues, but they can be incompatible. Would you prefer that the society you are a part of emphasize justice or forgiveness?

[Raza]

I don't see them as incompatible; 'justice' should merely decline to be the formal name for revenge, and be defined as something useful instead.

By todays' standards though, forgiveness. Our legal/penal systems are built on the unsalvagable idea that a 'wrong' is made 'right' by pointing at somebody to blame (and that by implication, every discomfort must have a perpetrator); an ideal that has zero feet in practical reality and all of it in immediate socioemotional gratification. Contemporary 'justice' is mostly quite absurd, and on a historical scale we're only just beginning to rationalize our lust for vengeance by quoting hard-sought practical benefits; it'll be a long time before we start holding it to them in anything approaching reasonable sequence.

[Mr Karl]

with all the crappy people I've come across in my life I have'nt much use for forgiveness..............justice is good

[One Eyed Cat]

Interesting. I was writing on how I believe in justice v. "morality". I believe in balance. Forgiveness actually is a good thing though. It really would depend on the circumstances though.

[Mr Karl]

well yeah, it is cool to be nice and forgive and forget, but in a world where everyone was actually nice to each other and actually had a little respect for other people things like justice and forgiveness wouldn't really be issues.

[bohoki]

justice seldom equals punishment

[Mr Karl]

justice is getting what you deserve

[Raza]

'Deserving' is a concept humans pulled out of thin air to rationalize what they want and place it on a faux ethical highground. I've never seen it meaningfully defined.

[OliX]

Verdienstelijk? It speaks for it self.

[Mr Karl]

Verdienstelijk? It speaks for it self.

that's an interesting word.......I don't understand fjordspeak at the end but I like the beginning.

yeah, english is a crappy language for words to explain some concepts

[OliX]

It means deserving in dutch. I meant that word is self explanatory and that I don't see a need for defining it.

[OliX]

If I have to guess on that word then verdienste could have same roots as word worth in English, värde in Swedish and vrijednost in ex-yu languages. They all mean same thing.

Lijk kinda pulls towards the word "alike".

[Raza]

Verdienstelijk? It speaks for it self.

Nothing speaks for itself. If you can't define it, it's bullshit.

Also, that's not a real dutch word. Not one anyone has used in the last three centuries, leastwise.

[OliX]

Define bullshit.

[Raza]

Nonsense; non-sequitur, autocontradictory and/or baseless.

Something being simultaneously true and undefined either creates a logical paradox or renders the concept of truth useless - which comes down to the same thing, really. Either's fine with me, but it still means the end of any practical applicability your proposition and subsequent arguments might have had.


Also, 'verdienstelijk', literally translated into english, would come down to something like 'deservice-y'. And it doesn't make more sense in dutch than it does in english.

[OliX]

You just contradicted yourself

[Raza]

Yeah, this time around I'm calling you on the "I have a point but I'm not telling!" thing.

[OliX]

I just lol'd.

[Raza]

I just lol'd.

Is that observational meta-humor?

Still waiting for your point, though. Well, not so much waiting as further exploiting the opportunity to suggest that you don't have one.

[OliX]

You gotta appreciate sarcasm a bit more Raza.

If you can't define it, it's bullshit.

Undefinable is bullshit. Bullshit is definable.

[OliX]

Verdienstelijk - meritorious.

[Raza]

You gotta appreciate sarcasm a bit more Raza.

Undefinable is bullshit. Bullshit is definable.

= != == != ===

Also, are you gonna tell me with a straight face that you ever heard anyone say 'meritorious' before now?

[OliX]

I just found out about that word. Every day you learn something new

As for the argument. I really didn't intended for it to be an argument.

[Mr Karl]

well verdien is earn in german, wich makes a lot of sense

lijk could just be a throut phlegm thing that the dutch like to do

[Raza]

'elijk' equates to the english '-y', which is placed after a word to turn it into an attributable quality. Fish, fishy.

And the 'st' part is turns 'dien' into 'dienst', which is a pretty exact equivalent to the difference between serve and service in english. 'Verdienen' does mean to deserve, but the combination of all those additives makes no sense, just like 'deservicey' doesn't in english. It sounds like something that came out of a free automated online translator that references antique second-grade dictionaries.

[Mr Karl]

huh...interesting.............in german verdien is used like earn, like money.........

[FedorasBox]

Justice is very subjective and logic is not often considered when emotional humans who have been wronged are attempting to administer this so-called justice. Forgiveness for child-rapists instead of getting anal-***** by their prison boyfriends? Now, that would be lame.