Lost Hope In Long Beach

[Tequila Zaire]

So I woke up early and headed off to meet with old friends near one of the more busy docks in what is internationally known as The Port of Long Beach. Not the kinda place most would want to spend time in but for some reason I like watching the massive ships get loaded and unloaded. Killing time for all to arrive I started talking to one of my old friends...within 5 minutes I wanted him to shut up.

He's a smart man with a good amount of high level schooling under his belt both in and out of the classroom but the negativity he spews is murderous. Everything it seems is under the jack boot of larger more corrupt powers with everything being evil and destructive. No one can be trusted, everything is ruled by the rich, etc. I can understand this mentality from teens and college kids but this guy is in his 30's...and while it by NO MEANS should not feel this way...he does NOTHING TO CHANGE IT.

Is anyone else sick of people (all ages really) cmplaining about the world, governments, etc. and doing nothing to change any of it? Worse is having to listen to them say they are smarter and stronger than it all yet all they really do is get drunk or high and spout their views to people and places that DON'T MATTER?

It's as though they use the worlds problems as an excuse to do nothing worthwhile.

I eventually got him to shut up as everyone showed up but I couldn't get over how broken he sounded...so angry...it seemed pointless to feel and live like that. It's not as though he's some poor loner either...he has a family, good cash flow, and truly has the means to do something worthwhile...but all he did was continue to complain about just about anything under the sun.

I've run into that more and more and one has to wonder if all that negativity builds up and CAUSES most of the problems this world has.

[killerkat]

well at least they see it, but really it's always been like that,just now ,in modern times, it's much less tolorable........i think..........


it does get pretty damn inoying

[Amelia G]

Sometimes when I realize the size of some of the corporate structures I am up against, I find everything very daunting. No point in throwing in the towel though.

I believe in the American dream. I believe the hardworking individual sometimes, with luck and perserverence, can break through.

I think the biggest threat to the disenfranchised is the lobster pot hate from within where often a person's own peer group holds them down worse than any capitalist overlord ever could.

[Morning Glory]

you haven't read enough arthur miller.

[One Eyed Cat]

So I woke up early and headed off to meet with old friends near one of the more busy docks in what is internationally known as The Port of Long Beach. Not the kinda place most would want to spend time in but for some reason I like watching the massive ships get loaded and unloaded. Killing time for all to arrive I started talking to one of my old friends...within 5 minutes I wanted him to shut up.

He's a smart man with a good amount of high level schooling under his belt both in and out of the classroom but the negativity he spews is murderous. Everything it seems is under the jack boot of larger more corrupt powers with everything being evil and destructive. No one can be trusted, everything is ruled by the rich, etc. I can understand this mentality from teens and college kids but this guy is in his 30's...and while it by NO MEANS should not feel this way...he does NOTHING TO CHANGE IT.

Is anyone else sick of people (all ages really) cmplaining about the world, governments, etc. and doing nothing to change any of it? Worse is having to listen to them say they are smarter and stronger than it all yet all they really do is get drunk or high and spout their views to people and places that DON'T MATTER?

It's as though they use the worlds problems as an excuse to do nothing worthwhile.

I eventually got him to shut up as everyone showed up but I couldn't get over how broken he sounded...so angry...it seemed pointless to feel and live like that. It's not as though he's some poor loner either...he has a family, good cash flow, and truly has the means to do something worthwhile...but all he did was continue to complain about just about anything under the sun.

I've run into that more and more and one has to wonder if all that negativity builds up and CAUSES most of the problems this world has.

The worst are people who even criticize anyone who *does* make an effort. I see a lot of grounds for optimism, personally. I'd have to say I'm sick of negative people in general, regardless of where it comes from or is aimed. I still believe that anyone can make it in this country. You need not be a part of a corporate elite to have a good life and lifestyle. We all have to let out our frustrations. From the sound of it, your friend is just sucking your energy with his whining.

OEC

[hewhoisagod]

hate people like that, I can be negative, but I know some people that as soon as you start a conversation. they have to butt in with shit completely off subject and it's usually something that brings the mood down. I try to avoid those types of people.

[Morning Glory]

'I know that I can't change anything. All I can do is force people to see the problem, so that they can't ignore it, and maybe someone who does have the power to change it, will do something about it.'
-Warren Ellis

not an exact qoute, but it was pretty much that tune. after going back and reading his first comics, after tequila pointed out, I see how he lifted qoutes from HST so considering that his politcial shit sounds like the idea for Fear and Loathing on the campaign trail, maybe that's ripped off too.. if it is, then give credit to whomever deserves it.

[Amelia G]

'I know that I can't change anything. All I can do is force people to see the problem, so that they can't ignore it, and maybe someone who does have the power to change it, will do something about it.'
-Warren Ellis

not an exact qoute, but it was pretty much that tune. after going back and reading his first comics, after tequila pointed out, I see how he lifted qoutes from HST so considering that his politcial shit sounds like the idea for Fear and Loathing on the campaign trail, maybe that's ripped off too.. if it is, then give credit to whomever deserves it.

A butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the world can cause a tsunami on the other. Power is not just the ability to force someone to do the right thing, but to show them what the right thing really would be.

A person who is forced will just change their behavior when no one is watching. A person who is convinced will be truly a better person. We all have the power if we try.

[Skavian]

A butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the world can cause a tsunami on the other. Power is not just the ability to force someone to do the right thing, but to show them what the right thing really would be.

A person who is forced will just change their behavior when no one is watching. A person who is convinced will be truly a better person. We all have the power if we try.

I'll agree with that. Ultimately, I think the best thing to do is to concern yourself with those things that you do as an individual. I am an anarchist, but really I don't find any pleasure in imagining some great revolution or turn of events where an anarchist form of governance comes into being. I see some valuable things in Socialism, for instance, and I make movements in that direction as to educate others as to alternative means of governance, but what it comes down to is the fact that nobody is ever changed by anyone but themselves. At least in an honest and to the bone fashion.

[CPRB]

Amelia made two damn good points....damn yer good....

[Morning Glory]

that is true amelia... but those who have power tend to kind of keep power. and when it comes down to the guy that commands armies of loyal subjects, and sways the flow of economics and civic services.. and me, some guy who doesn't really have shit... it seems pretty clear whose going to be more influencial in getting what they want.

but that just goes back to what I said, because the little guy is still out there getting the word out, and no matter how big the Big guy is there's still 100 average joes to every cop and politician. it's those people that allow the big guys to have that power, so getting them to side with you could quickly change the hands of the power structure.

You're also right skavian. I'm not going to go to an NRA meeting and tell them why guns are bad, because I know that I'll never change thier mind.. but what I can do is take people that may have a feeling that things aren't all Disney Wolrd in the USA and point them in the direction of other's who feel the same way. There is a lot of good people on the edge of social consciousness and activism, but they are surrounded by the ignorant masses and they really don't have the information they need- they know the News is bullshit, but they don't hear anything else or any opposing views, and much worse, they've never met anyone like them, so they feel alienated and without hope.

[Amelia G]

that is true amelia... but those who have power tend to kind of keep power. and when it comes down to the guy that commands armies of loyal subjects, and sways the flow of economics and civic services.. and me, some guy who doesn't really have shit... it seems pretty clear whose going to be more influencial in getting what they want.

but that just goes back to what I said, because the little guy is still out there getting the word out, and no matter how big the Big guy is there's still 100 average joes to every cop and politician. it's those people that allow the big guys to have that power, so getting them to side with you could quickly change the hands of the power structure.

You're also right skavian. I'm not going to go to an NRA meeting and tell them why guns are bad, because I know that I'll never change thier mind.. but what I can do is take people that may have a feeling that things aren't all Disney Wolrd in the USA and point them in the direction of other's who feel the same way. There is a lot of good people on the edge of social consciousness and activism, but they are surrounded by the ignorant masses and they really don't have the information they need- they know the News is bullshit, but they don't hear anything else or any opposing views, and much worse, they've never met anyone like them, so they feel alienated and without hope.

Actually, I don't think it is pollyanna to believe that you can change their minds. Although I am no longer an NRA member, I am pro 2nd ammendment rights personally. The specific example of gun rights aside, if you truly believe something, I think you owe it to both yourself and to the world to try to convince other people of what you believe to be right. This doesn't mean you should yell "Guns suck" at an NRA meeting because that would just be rude trolling. But you should try to get the word out about whatever you believe in a deeply held important way. Not just like if you believe beets taste good or something.

[Morning Glory]

there's always the conflict between trying to convince people what's right, and trying to TELL people what's right. I guess that's the difference between a 2nd amendment enthusiest and an NRA member.

[Amelia G]

there's always the conflict between trying to convince people what's right, and trying to TELL people what's right. I guess that's the difference between a 2nd amendment enthusiest and an NRA member.

Totally agree on the telling vs. convincing. I think that the good fight is in trying to convince other people of what you feel to be right.

[killerkat]

Totally agree on the telling vs. convincing. I think that the good fight is in trying to convince other people of what you feel to be right.

i was told as a kid ,that i would argue a fence post,if i had an idea/belive......

i learned as a teenager to drop that habit. it's not only the good fight ,but often the impossible fight..Hence the fence post ,haha...

[TheDeathKnight]

I understand why people complain. The world is a frustrating place.

But the thing that bothers me the most, is that we live in America.
One of the richest countries in the world, with a really high standard of living.

Every person that complains, should go live in a 3rd world country
for a few years, then come back to the USA, and appreciate the
abundance of food, shelter, clothing, and entertainment...

Sure, we have problems, but we also have life really easy compared
to a lot of other people in the world...

[One Eyed Cat]

Actually, I don't think it is pollyanna to believe that you can change their minds. Although I am no longer an NRA member, I am pro 2nd ammendment rights personally. The specific example of gun rights aside, if you truly believe something, I think you owe it to both yourself and to the world to try to convince other people of what you believe to be right. This doesn't mean you should yell "Guns suck" at an NRA meeting because that would just be rude trolling. But you should try to get the word out about whatever you believe in a deeply held important way. Not just like if you believe beets taste good or something.

A lot of times, you need not bother changing their minds. It is those who are driven to action by their convictions that will carry the day. Why waste time with people whom you know will go on complaining?

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

I understand why people complain. The world is a frustrating place.

But the thing that bothers me the most, is that we live in America.
One of the richest countries in the world, with a really high standard of living.

Every person that complains, should go live in a 3rd world country
for a few years, then come back to the USA, and appreciate the
abundance of food, shelter, clothing, and entertainment...

Sure, we have problems, but we also have life really easy compared
to a lot of other people in the world...

I second that emotion

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

A butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the world can cause a tsunami on the other. Power is not just the ability to force someone to do the right thing, but to show them what the right thing really would be.

A person who is forced will just change their behavior when no one is watching. A person who is convinced will be truly a better person. We all have the power if we try.

I'd rather motivate people into action than bother with those who lack clarity.

OEC

[Skavian]

I understand why people complain. The world is a frustrating place.

But the thing that bothers me the most, is that we live in America.
One of the richest countries in the world, with a really high standard of living.

Every person that complains, should go live in a 3rd world country
for a few years, then come back to the USA, and appreciate the
abundance of food, shelter, clothing, and entertainment...

Sure, we have problems, but we also have life really easy compared
to a lot of other people in the world...

America's "high standard of living," is a myth of course. There are parts of America "one of the richest countries in the world," that are indeed as bad or worse than 3rd world countries. Our literacy rate is atrocious, our social systems are inept, and the contrast between rich and poor is getting to be almost feudal in perspective when you really look at the numbers. Illusion is the greatest ally of complicity.

[killerkat]

, and the contrast between rich and poor is getting to be almost feudal in perspective when you really look at the numbers. Illusion is the greatest ally of complicity.

ala, french revolution, huh?.... you had high class and clergy at 3% and poor son og a bitches at 97% of the country,so what they do,kill like a million people, and go into frenzys,litteraly ripping people apart on the street..........in our future..maybe not.but makes you think....

[Amelia G]

I'd rather motivate people into action than bother with those who lack clarity.

OEC

Sometimes the most important thing you could ever convince people of is that action is worthwhile.

[One Eyed Cat]

America's "high standard of living," is a myth of course. There are parts of America "one of the richest countries in the world," that are indeed as bad or worse than 3rd world countries. Our literacy rate is atrocious, our social systems are inept, and the contrast between rich and poor is getting to be almost feudal in perspective when you really look at the numbers. Illusion is the greatest ally of complicity.

The most impoverished people in this country have a standard of living higher than that of over 50% of Ukrainians. I'd agree on the literacy rate, to an extent on social systems. I just don't think you are taking into account how much worse it actually is elsewhere. It takes a good deal of ineptitude not to make it in this country. Personal initiative trumps the ills in a country such as this. Immigrants I speak to are amazed how easy we have it here.

OEC

[One Eyed Cat]

Sometimes the most important thing you could ever convince people of is that action is worthwhile.

True. I'd just rather do that than waste my time on cretins with no initiative.

OEC

[Amelia G]

America's "high standard of living," is a myth of course. There are parts of America "one of the richest countries in the world," that are indeed as bad or worse than 3rd world countries. Our literacy rate is atrocious, our social systems are inept, and the contrast between rich and poor is getting to be almost feudal in perspective when you really look at the numbers. Illusion is the greatest ally of complicity.

There are parts of my country where I would like to see better literacy. I would like to see more opportunities and fewer handouts because a system of lack of opportunity coupled with welfare squeezes out the people in the middle who should be the majority of a healthy economy and society. We haven't figured out what to do about how much longer life expectencies have become and how inheritance has been changed by this. We have people who just need to be given a chance. There is certainly what to work on to improve.

That said, there are zero third world nations that are better on pretty much any point than the U.S. Your mere freedom to state what you did here is a measure of how great this country is.

Feel free to post actual statistics if you have any.

[Amelia G]

True. I'd just rather do that than waste my time on cretins with no initiative.

OEC

Wasting time on cretins with no initiative is my personal Achilles heel, so I hear ya on that one.

[killerkat]

Wasting time on cretins with no initiative is my personal Achilles heel, so I hear ya on that one.

i have A BIG problem with saying everybody has potential and beliving in everybody i meet,i hate it........i'm too fuckin' nice.....

[Amelia G]

i have A BIG problem with saying everybody has potential and beliving in everybody i meet,i hate it........i'm too fuckin' nice.....

We should start a support group!

[Skavian]

The most impoverished people in this country have a standard of living higher than that of over 50% of Ukrainians. I'd agree on the literacy rate, to an extent on social systems. I just don't think you are taking into account how much worse it actually is elsewhere. It takes a good deal of ineptitude not to make it in this country. Personal initiative trumps the ills in a country such as this. Immigrants I speak to are amazed how easy we have it here.

OEC

But at what cost? I am saying America's supposed elegance comes at a cost. Maybe I'm just part of that voice of restraint and Devil's Advocate like premonition that says America is about to devolve into a third-world country, or at least a much more reduced state. America is a democracy, democracies rely on citizens, and when your citizens are of poor quality so is your democracy. I'll spare the basic political science qualifications for what makes a "good" citizen (since you can do your own research there) and just say that America isn't really providing conditions that promote quality citizens. Rather than attacking what I am ommitting by avoiding comparisons to third world countries (I am not blind to these distinctions I assure you), I think it might be more constructive to look at the reality of the matter, and that reality is that America has bad parts that are in some places worse than they really should be. They should be feverishly worked on and solved, but the country would rather occupy itself with whether one mentally damaged woman should have a feeding tube, rather than whether hundreds or thousands of people are getting fed.

[Amelia G]

But at what cost? I am saying America's supposed elegance comes at a cost. Maybe I'm just part of that voice of restraint and Devil's Advocate like premonition that says America is about to devolve into a third-world country, or at least a much more reduced state. America is a democracy, democracies rely on citizens, and when your citizens are of poor quality so is your democracy. I'll spare the basic political science qualifications for what makes a "good" citizen (since you can do your own research there) and just say that America isn't really providing conditions that promote quality citizens. Rather than attacking what I am ommitting by avoiding comparisons to third world countries (I am not blind to these distinctions I assure you), I think it might be more constructive to look at the reality of the matter, and that reality is that America has bad parts that are in some places worse than they really should be. They should be feverishly worked on and solved, but the country would rather occupy itself with whether one mentally damaged woman should have a feeding tube, rather than whether hundreds or thousands of people are getting fed.

I'm totally with you on being baffled by the coverage of that one woman's case. Seems like a real waste of bandwidth to me.

I think that those of us who are Americans or live in America should be grateful for the bounty we have potential access to and not call the nation names. We are not a third world country by any measure.

There are things I do not like about the direction I see my culture moving on both a micro and macro scale, but that is far from thinking we are becoming third world.

[One Eyed Cat]

But at what cost? I am saying America's supposed elegance comes at a cost. Maybe I'm just part of that voice of restraint and Devil's Advocate like premonition that says America is about to devolve into a third-world country, or at least a much more reduced state. America is a democracy, democracies rely on citizens, and when your citizens are of poor quality so is your democracy. I'll spare the basic political science qualifications for what makes a "good" citizen (since you can do your own research there) and just say that America isn't really providing conditions that promote quality citizens. Rather than attacking what I am ommitting by avoiding comparisons to third world countries (I am not blind to these distinctions I assure you), I think it might be more constructive to look at the reality of the matter, and that reality is that America has bad parts that are in some places worse than they really should be. They should be feverishly worked on and solved, but the country would rather occupy itself with whether one mentally damaged woman should have a feeding tube, rather than whether hundreds or thousands of people are getting fed.

I would certainly agree that we have a lot to work on. Primarily, our educational system is insufficient to produce good citizens (my qualification on this would be well-informed and literate people) I didn't bring up Schiavo in lieu of the economic issues, it is just symbolic of a greater division in society. We have become, at once, more agonistic and less informed. On that count, I would agree that it is a bit scary. As a pragmatist, I generally take up the causes in which I can do some good. I am more interested in international issues than domestic ones. In the US, I believe I am of the most service to Ukrainian Immigrants and people with disabilities.

OEC

[Skavian]

I'm totally with you on being baffled by the coverage of that one woman's case. Seems like a real waste of bandwidth to me.

I think that those of us who are Americans or live in America should be grateful for the bounty we have potential access to and not call the nation names. We are not a third world country by any measure.

There are things I do not like about the direction I see my culture moving on both a micro and macro scale, but that is far from thinking we are becoming third world.

I am not saying America is a third world country yet. Nor do I say anybody will wake up to be surprised by that tomorrow. But it is our job as vigilant citizens to keep it from ever becoming like that. And that means paying attention to the suffering and plight of our own "citizens," even if those citizens are immigrants or people in areas of oppression.

[Skavian]

There are parts of my country where I would like to see better literacy. I would like to see more opportunities and fewer handouts because a system of lack of opportunity coupled with welfare squeezes out the people in the middle who should be the majority of a healthy economy and society. We haven't figured out what to do about how much longer life expectencies have become and how inheritance has been changed by this. We have people who just need to be given a chance. There is certainly what to work on to improve.

That said, there are zero third world nations that are better on pretty much any point than the U.S. Your mere freedom to state what you did here is a measure of how great this country is.

Feel free to post actual statistics if you have any.

Here are some statistics. Or rather, a site linking to that.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Education

Beyond that, investigate this list:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Top-Rankings

[Amelia G]

I am not saying America is a third world country yet. Nor do I say anybody will wake up to be surprised by that tomorrow. But it is our job as vigilant citizens to keep it from ever becoming like that. And that means paying attention to the suffering and plight of our own "citizens," even if those citizens are immigrants or people in areas of oppression.

Okay, I'm going to accept that as a statement that you were speaking in hyperbole before and let it go.

What is an area of oppression?

[Amelia G]

Here are some statistics. Or rather, a site linking to that.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Education

I'm not going to click on that. Apart from everything else, it is a violation of Blue Blood's Terms of Service to post a link with no conversation.

If you believe what you read, you should be able to pull out the stats you feel are important and restate them in your own words, explaining what you feel they mean and where they come from and why that source is reliable.

I want to foster actual dialogue. Too much internet communication is just insults and links. I want to encourage people to actually express themselves and their ideas to each other.

[Skavian]

Okay, I'm going to accept that as a statement that you were speaking in hyperbole before and let it go.

What is an area of oppression?

"Ghettos,"are an immediate thought coming to mind. Places where the average income is so atrociously low that it is abysmal. Where education of any decent quality is hard to obtain. Where drug and crime rates are more elevated than surrounding areas. Where a variety of other factors act to keep inhabitants of an area of oppression from getting out of it. Some do, some do not, but the fact is that these areas aren't actively pursued in many places of America. I can think of a few examples where these sorts of things are ferociously fought in an attempt to turn them over into healthier places to live, but there are a lot more examples where they simply are just ignored.

[Skavian]

I'm not going to click on that. Apart from everything else, it is a violation of Blue Blood's Terms of Service to post a link with no conversation.

If you believe what you read, you should be able to pull out the stats you feel are important and restate them in your own words, explaining what you feel they mean and where they come from and why that source is reliable.

I want to foster actual dialogue. Too much internet communication is just insults and links. I want to encourage people to actually express themselves and their ideas to each other.

\

Being one for brevity, I'd rather avoid taking my quick response and turning it into a necessary elaboration to appropriately frame the statistics. I simply took your request and gave you the tools to employ them.

[One Eyed Cat]

The CIA World Factbook has the US at a 97% Literacy Rate. UNICEF has a chart showing us at less than 10% Illiteracy. The "third world countries" I see listed are coming in at 20-60% literacy on both charts. The only exception in terms of poor countries are Eastern Europe and the European part of the Former Soviet Union. Ukraine and Russia both come in at 98% CIA and under 10% UNICEF as do most of the other surrounding countries.

OEC

[Amelia G]

\

Being one for brevity, I'd rather avoid taking my quick response and turning it into a necessary elaboration to appropriately frame the statistics. I simply took your request and gave you the tools to employ them.

Don't mean to be tough on you here, but you post with enough frequency that I don't really buy that brevity is your goal.

Plenty of productive and interesting members of this community disagree with one another, but they can support what they have to say. If you can't support what you have to say, you shouldn't say it.

If you can't explain the statistics you have read, then you most likely do not understand them and should not be spouting unsupportable anti-American gibberish based on something you don't understand.

Blue Blood is a place for discussion, dialogue, exchange of ideas, seeking of truth, finding out about cool stuff, and fun. I'm uncomfortable that more than a few board members have found you hostile in a way which decreases their fun and, so far, you appear unwilling or unable to support what you assert.

I am starting to get the impression that you are just a troll. If you do not mean to be a troll, please respect the TOS for this community and actually make an effort to contribute something. For example, if you really knew statistics which showed that America had third world characteristics in some area and you explained them to everyone here, that would be contributing something.

Please try to keep in mind that, when you type something onto the internet, other people are reading it and you are not solely typing for your own amusement. Be considerate.

[Amelia G]

The CIA World Factbook has the US at a 97% Literacy Rate. UNICEF has a chart showing us at less than 10% Illiteracy. The "third world countries" I see listed are coming in at 20-60% literacy on both charts. The only exception in terms of poor countries are Eastern Europe and the European part of the Former Soviet Union. Ukraine and Russia both come in at 98% CIA and under 10% UNICEF as do most of the other surrounding countries.

OEC

There you go being an interesting and productive member of the community again