Is America Greedy?

[Evil Eric]

Democracy is a hot topic right now, the recession and Michael Moore's new movie. How much is too much?

[toxicat]

Um...yeah.

[mystoo]

I think so yes, but I'm not going to judge, cuz I'm greedy too.

[VoltaireBlue]

i think so yes, but i'm not going to judge, cuz i'm greedy too.

+1

[Mr Karl]

democracy is for ancient greeks

[Amelia G]

I think democracy, capitalism, America, and that miserable hypocrite Michael Moore are very different things. The idea that Michael Moore says that capitalism is bad, but explains that he charges for his movies to make his work sustainable. Uhm, duh. Of course there is a difference between sustainable agriculture and leaving scorched earth behind profits. Capitalism in no way has to equal greed. Do I think that people should be compensated for their efforts? Ideally, yes. Do I think we should have some social safety nets? In theory, yes, but that stuff somehow does not tend to work out to help me. Admittedly because I often don't accept certain kinds of help.

I am not greedy, but I would like to someday be compensated equal to my efforts. That is the American Dream.

A few economically strip mining corporations like Bank of America and AIG have been permitted to loot our economy. But that is communism and not capitalism at all, when a centralized government takes from the many to give mostly to the wealthy few but tosses some token welfare to some of the very needy.

[Rockwulf]

Democracy is a hot topic right now, the recession and Michael Moore's new movie. How much is too much?

How many threads have you posted today? Thats how much too much is.

[Amelia G]

How many threads have you posted today? Thats how much too much is.

Hasn't it been a while since you started some interesting threads?

[Gollywog]

Capitalism in no way has to equal greed.

Explain the fundamental difference.

I am not greedy, but I would like to someday be compensated equal to my efforts.

Is taking photos all that difficult?? Do you want a medal or a monument?

that is communism and not capitalism at all, when a centralized government takes from the many to give mostly to the wealthy few but tosses some token welfare to some of the very needy.

Bullshit. Communism tries to take from the wealthy and distribute to the poor. Has it ever properly succeeded? No. But it hasn't fucked the world to the same extent as capitalism either...

[Rockwulf]

Hasn't it been a while since you started some interesting threads?

You're crazy. That thread about my balls was total money.

[Amelia G]

Explain the fundamental difference.

Capitalism is supposed to be about rewarding people fairly for creating value. The way the stock market currently fails to tie company valuation with P&L is counter to the core concepts of capitalism and one of the main reasons our economy is so hosed.

Greed is people wanting to take more than their fair share.

Is taking photos all that difficult?? Do you want a medal or a monument?

I'm pretty sure a total stranger has no idea what I do or have done and how hard it is or was, so I don't think we really need to make a big concept theory discussion into something overly local.

Bullshit. Communism tries to take from the wealthy and distribute to the poor. Has it ever properly succeeded? No. But it hasn't fucked the world to the same extent as capitalism either...

Socialism is about distributing to everyone equally, regardless of contribution.

Communism is in theory about the state holding ownership and in practice about the use of government to transfer wealth from one group to another. The former Soviet Union is of course the largest example of this. I'm pretty sure the people in the bread lines didn't see a huge improvement over the rule of the Czars. Both of those options sucked for the poor.

[Amelia G]

You're crazy. That thread about my balls was total money.

Threads plural.

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

Explain the fundamental difference.

Capitalism is an economic and social system in which the means of production (also known as capital) are privately controlled; labor, goods and capital are traded in a market; profits are distributed to owners.

Greed is an excessive desire for wealth or property.

Greed is an emotion, capitalism is a method.

Is taking photos all that difficult?? Do you want a medal or a monument?

Taking photos is a piece of cake, anyone can do it. Taking interesting photos that people are interested in seeing is a lot harder. That is why Amelia runs a website that markets her photos successfully and I just bother my friends with what I have done.

And no, she doesn't want a medal, well, maybe she does, but what she said she hopes for is to be compensated equal to her efforts. nothing wrong with that in any system, capitalism, communism, socialism even feudalism all usually have some mechanism to reward effort.

Bullshit. Communism tries to take from the wealthy and distribute to the poor. Has it ever properly succeeded? No. But it hasn't fucked the world to the same extent as capitalism either...

You are tight that what happened with AIG, BofA and Citibank (never forget Citi, those fuckers cleaned up in this deal) is not communism. It isn't capitalism either. I still believe that a little socialism here and ther goes a long way and cooperate welfare is the worst thing for any economic system.

But it wasn't capitalism that fucked up the world, it was greed. Greed under feudalism, capitalism, socialism, even communism, the end result is the same. While people can point out that there has not been an ideal communist system, the same can be said about capitalism. Once someone got a little ahead, they started squashing other people's ability to catch up. People will fuck each other's lives up mightily for a small increase in property or power.

My personaly take is that no "pure" system works. That is why I am a libertarian-socialist... or a socialism-libertarian. You give people as much freedom as possible, but acknowledge that some institutions do not run well when they are operated for profit and socialize those systems. And you step back and realize that the market has no conscious and does not work for the good of the people, and ths put restraints on the market to compensate for that.

Then you give everyone guns, just to make sure it keeps working.

that's my take anyway.

[Mr Karl]

social-libertarian can't work, unless you have a fascist running it

[nathanmbailey]

Communism is a short-term solution, not a workable government. It worked in Russia for a little while, until one leader was killed and a greedy one took over. Any kind of government will fail with the wrong people in power. Capitalism is just the concept of free trade and not having a government ruling over every decision a business makes.

Is America greedy? That's just a bad question to ask. Are some Americans greedy, yeah of course, but no more than anyone in any other country. It's unfair to say an entire nation is greedy because a few of the people with the most power decided to screw over the masses. That happens with every country from time to time.

[Amelia G]

Communism is a short-term solution, not a workable government. It worked in Russia for a little while, until one leader was killed and a greedy one took over. Any kind of government will fail with the wrong people in power. Capitalism is just the concept of free trade and not having a government ruling over every decision a business makes.

Is America greedy? That's just a bad question to ask. Are some Americans greedy, yeah of course, but no more than anyone in any other country. It's unfair to say an entire nation is greedy because a few of the people with the most power decided to screw over the masses. That happens with every country from time to time.

Well said

[nathanmbailey]

Well said

I have my moments.

[TheDeathKnight]

Capitalism is the norm, because capitalism is the economic version of survival of the fittest. It works the same way nature works, which is why even places like China, that started out trying to be communist, still end up being pretty much capitalist. In capitalism, if you are smart, and ruthless, you get the most out of it. If you sit and do nothing, you fail, and get very little. And the whole thing with strip-mining, and destruction or resources, that is also an example of darwinism in action. If we destroy the planet, and wipe out all the resources, they we won't have anything, and people will starve and suffer. So it's still about making choices. If you make the wrong choices, and go down a destructive path, you won't succeed in the long run. I don't see anything wrong with capitalism. I just hope we are smart enough to do it the right way, and not destroy the planet in the process.

[Raza]

I think democracy, capitalism, America, and that miserable hypocrite Michael Moore are very different things. The idea that Michael Moore says that capitalism is bad, but explains that he charges for his movies to make his work sustainable. Uhm, duh. Of course there is a difference between sustainable agriculture and leaving scorched earth behind profits.

Capitalism lacks a mechanism to prevent the latter though, as there is no incentive for people to care about things they do not own or will not own in the future. This implies that the choice between destructive capitalism and off-and-by-itself harmless capitalism (which nonetheless perpetuates the system encouraging the destructive kind) is left for the enterprising individual to make, and there being a relevant difference makes it less than fully hypocritical to complain about the one while engaging in the other.*

One way or another, hypocrisy does not devalidate a point. In a hypothetical world where everybody's fighting one another, you may still have to swing your sword while you protest the issue. Forceful systems such as violence, capitalism and representative democracy will try to drag you down to their level in order to engage them at all, and US capitalism specifically is powerful enough to pull it off almost every time.

Capitalism in no way has to equal greed. Do I think that people should be compensated for their efforts? Ideally, yes. Do I think we should have some social safety nets? In theory, yes, but that stuff somehow does not tend to work out to help me. Admittedly because I often don't accept certain kinds of help.

I am not greedy, but I would like to someday be compensated equal to my efforts. That is the American Dream.

This may be a flaw inherent to human psychology more than capitalist theory, but capitalism tends to teach people to expect (and demand) compensation for effort purely in monetary form, to the point where many capitalists-by-local-default actually believe that work for which you don't get paid (such as that in a socialist nation) is necessarily work for which there is no reward.

It's one of the great absurdities of our age. Humans are naturally inclined to act for many reasons and experience reward through equally many mechanisms, and honestly monetary compensation isn't one of them - which is why so many people sucked into lives of working for one corporation to buy stuff another corporation tells you you need lead such unsatisfying lives. Only the people that treat capitalism somewhat as a game and approach means to make money as personal challenges feel rewarded by the process; and these people tend to either put the money to some ongoing underlying quest, or keep making it with zero regard to how much they've already stacked up. One way or another money is rarely the object psychologically, and it is very unnatural for us to expect that reward should take on that shape before any other. Acting to get something you want directly is far more satisfying, and is becoming a forgotten art.

A few economically strip mining corporations like Bank of America and AIG have been permitted to loot our economy. But that is communism and not capitalism at all, when a centralized government takes from the many to give mostly to the wealthy few but tosses some token welfare to some of the very needy.

This described both Soviet communism and American capitalism, but neither economic theory in a pure form.

*mind you, I've no idea what MM's actually saying; I don't find him very interesting. My point is against the 'purity' argument where complaints against capitalism (or any system) are dismissed because they're presented through it.

[Morning Glory]

The problem with capitalism is that it works ideally based on the notion that all people have equal access to capital. One of the major flaws is that it never worked toward this achievement in the simplest way by getting rid of inheritance. By retaining intact the accumulated wealth of monarchy it just passed down the same feudal economy.

Today 95% percent of the capital is controlled by five percent of the population and everyone else has nothing to contribute except for their labor. The increase in technology further complicates this issue because it provides for the manufacture of goods with less labor so the owners of the capital get to acquire more of it with less and then sell it back to the workers that still have the same amount of bargaining capital as they ever did.

[Morning Glory]

in terms of the world's problems, think about it like this: just by being alive you are polluting the planet with tons of waste and taking resources away from everyone else, so at the very least you should probably kill yourself. If not, I think that it's only fair that you kill at least two other people instead. A world population decrease by half is a good start, but 2/3would be better.

[Raza]

Today 95% percent of the capital is controlled by five percent of the population and everyone else has nothing to contribute except for their labor. The increase in technology further complicates this issue because it provides for the manufacture of goods with less labor so the owners of the capital get to acquire more of it with less and then sell it back to the workers that still have the same amount of bargaining capital as they ever did.

Right! Which is why "let me use this and I won't break your stuff" deserves far more credit as a bargaining chip.

[TheDeathKnight]

I'm not saying people have equal access, equal skills, or equality in any way.

Going back to my example about nature, look at life like Lions and Antelopes.
The most violent and strongest predators, get to eat the slower, dumber, and
less-sophisticated prey. It's no different with humans.

Some people are born predators. Some people are born prey.

But with humans, we have a much bigger brain. So you can learn how
to be more than just prey if you want to. You can learn how to survive.
Or you can just do what your parents did before you, and make the
exact same choices, the same mistakes, and end up in the exact
same circumstances.

And that doesn't mean you have to become a predator, and learn how to
destroy the planet in the name of capitalistic gains. But you can learn how
to avoid being a victim, and how to make yourself successful in the world.

By learning and observing how the world works...

Capitalism is dominant, because it is a direct reflection of out natural animal instincts.

People want a good mate, good home, good food, fun things, because they are good to have. It's totally natural to want those things, and to attempt to get them. Some people are just better at "getting things" than others.

[Raza]

Murder and **** are direct reflections of our animal instincts, too.

Seems that to a degree, instincts can be unlearned or overridden, or have their trigger conditions isolated.

Don't let me be the preachy one, though...

[TheDeathKnight]

And it's a good idea to try to override those instincts.

But when you are talking about the world, and world economic systems, you are talking about the behaviors of billions of people. Not just a few intellectuals. Which is why China failed to become fully communist, even though they had re-education classes, and propaganda, etc. People still slip back into trying to do what is best for themselves. Even when you tell people they can't buy and sell things, and it all must be shared, people still sell things behind the scenes. People trade, people bargain, and people exchange. It's just the natural way business happens.

[Amelia G]

The point of money is to make barter more simple and efficient, not for everybody to do what is best for only them.

Am I the only one who got the educational unit on the evolution of monetary systems in elementary school?

[Mr Karl]

Am I the only one who got the educational unit on the evolution of monetary systems in elementary school?

probably..............all most people know are all those stupid mantras like"time is money" or "money is the root of all evil"...........

I still think anyone who wants to go on about all this has to read Atlas shrugged

[Amelia G]

probably..............all most people know are all those stupid mantras like"time is money" or "money is the root of all evil"...........

I still think anyone who wants to go on about all this has to read Atlas shrugged

Oddly enough, I managed to get through school without ever reading Ayn Rand. Read Atlas Shrugged in a book club this past year. It horrifies me the extent to which people just don't seem to get that book. The point of that book was not that greed is good. Quite the contrary, she called fat cats, who sucked money out of everyone else via influence, looters. And she clearly meant looter as an epithet. The bad guys in her book are those who use their political capital to steal from both the rich and the poor, basically from all those who create value through their labor/efforts.

[Mr Karl]

maybe people should actualy try living in a barter system and just see how much fun it is. I've done it and it can be stressfull. I actually don't think many people would survive that

[Amelia G]

maybe people should actualy try living in a barter system and just see how much fun it is. I've done it and it can be stressfull. I actually don't think many people would survive that

Too true. I personally have a strong weakness for punk rock barter, despite its inefficiencies, or at least I used to. Unfortunately, I have found that it gets very stressful when I deliver my part of the deal and the other person either does not do their part or decides they are doing it for "free" and I owe them a favor in addition to what they already agreed to trade for.

[Rockwulf]

I have found that it gets very stressful when I deliver my part of the deal and the other person either does not do their part or decides they are doing it for "free" and I owe them a favor in addition to what they already agreed to trade for.

Well that's where knuckle-draggers like myself fit into the system.

Sure, you give me one of the 5 chickens that guy said he'd pay you and I'll kick in his door and get some goddamn chickens.

[Amelia G]

Well that's where knuckle-draggers like myself fit into the system.

Sure, you give me one of the 5 chickens that guy said he'd pay you and I'll kick in his door and get some goddamn chickens.

Rockwulf, do I have some chickens for you

[Raza]

And it's a good idea to try to override those instincts.

But when you are talking about the world, and world economic systems, you are talking about the behaviors of billions of people. Not just a few intellectuals. Which is why China failed to become fully communist, even though they had re-education classes, and propaganda, etc. People still slip back into trying to do what is best for themselves. Even when you tell people they can't buy and sell things, and it all must be shared, people still sell things behind the scenes. People trade, people bargain, and people exchange. It's just the natural way business happens.

And in a capitalist system, people still give stuff away.

So don't tell them shit. Just stop enforcing property law beyond basic respect for what you can hold and a proportionally sized space for everyone to live in.

Kills off capitalism and communism, flat.

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

in terms of the world's problems, think about it like this: just by being alive you are polluting the planet with tons of waste and taking resources away from everyone else, so at the very least you should probably kill yourself. If not, I think that it's only fair that you kill at least two other people instead. A world population decrease by half is a good start, but 2/3would be better.

You have a good point there. You should swing by the house around midnight to talk more about it. Oh, and bring a friend.

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

• Capitalism believes that someone should be justly compensated for their contributions to society.
• Communism believes that someone should be justly compensated for their contributions to society.
• Feudalismbelieves that someone should be justly compensated for their contributions to society.

The major difference between the three systems is the mechanism for delivering just compensation and the view on what is just. And part of the problem with any system is the Rockwolfs. Sure in a barter economy a Rockwolf getting Amiela her well earned chickens is a good thing. But when you get 100 Rockwolfs, not all of them care about who justly deserves the chickens and they start protecting capital by say going into asset acquisition. And in capitalism, communism and feudalism (and any -ism really) there are a lot of Rockwolfs and people willing to use them to enforce their will.

And comparing America to China is not comparing communism to capitalism because China is as communist as the US is capitalist, which is to say not as much as you think.

If you don't believe me, take a million dollars and try to enter the oil industry without buying into an existing company. First, you can't get the oil, cause the right to drill is not sold, it is awarded. Sur you have a million dollar, but we are going to give the contract to Exxon because they are a large company and they can gather and distribute the oil more safely. (Irony, get it )

Likewise, in China people compete for contracts and resources.

The ideal of any of these systems are good, but in the grimy, ugly world, we usually end up with combination of several ideals to get a working system. So the argument should not be "is capitalism or communism bad?" but "how much capitalism and how much communism serves the greatest good?" and "how many Rockwolfs will it take to convince the rest of the world of this?"

[Rockwulf]

How many Rockwulfs does it take to screw a chicken?

[Mr Karl]

How many Rockwulfs does it take to screw a chicken?

that's easy........................3

[One Eyed Cat]

Greed strikes me more as a psychological trait. Forget isms, as I am interested only in what is. Bailouts, economic stimulus, unsustainable debt, govt takeover over of major corps (and their relationships therein). I could go on and on. If you're asking if the average small business owner is greedy, I'd say I don't care. I do believe we have lost a bit of our soul, but it is as systemic as it is a given individual trait like greed.

What remains to be seen: Can we correct these problems within the system? I honestly don't know at this point.

OEC

[Dusk]

Well America is the only nation that came out of both world wars richer.

[incog]

How many Rockwulfs does it take to screw a chicken?

Pics or it didn't happen.