Heroin & other highly addictive substances

[Velvet-Tongue]

So the arguments against drugs seems to be.."Well other bad stuff exists so why not allow drugs? I mean the governemtn kills people so...Government killing people = People being shot to get high..!?! GENIUS) its assinine to compare the two at all.

Or the great argument of "Well its my body, I'll do what I want)) Sure go ahead, but hey guess what, to get the drugs you gotta buy them and..then you';re not just messing up your own body. You're messing with my area, my family, my friends. You're not perfect, nobody is thats why we have laws and a government. To try and protect people and to keep order in society. Complete freedom and social anarchy has never and will never work because people inherently suck.

And for the last reply...Burn all my CD's if I hate drugs because musicians sometimes use them. Great argument buddy, on why not to use drugs.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but everyones response FOR drugs is usually just a canned reply re-worded from a cd album or pro-drugs webpage. There are minds bigger and greater then our own who have studied and read far more then we can hope to and they've seen that supporting and using drugs causes more harm then good. Providing an easy out for one person leaves behind un-easy problems for everyone else to deal with.

[Kidthorazine]

Ive never read a logical argument for drug prohibition that ive agreed with. And its been proven time and time again that drug prohibintion does more harm than good. If they where legal, noone would buy them from criminals and no one other than the user would get hurt. And the potential for damage to the user would also be greatly reduced.

[Mr Karl]

I've always been for legalization of all drugs...provided the users are licenced......heheheheh

[Jax]

The government SHOULD have a say as to what you put into your body if what you do could harm/interfere with other people Its one of the reasons why the government exists at all. To safe guard and protect order. That does not mean dominate but it does mean show its face.

I can GUARANTEE a heroine addict will cause less harm to someone else then an alcoholic. So does that mean they should make booze illegal? A pot head is less likely to harm anyone, since they never get off the couch. HA! Generalization there, but hey if the shoe fits...

[MrGoff]

There are minds bigger and greater then our own who have studied and read far more then we can hope to and they've seen that supporting and using drugs causes more harm then good..

yap like Ronald Reagan and buddy Bush. the whole pack of liars.You seem a little to young to know about any of that. So here it is. You have been lied to about more than you know. take it from me. and the other older people. Look I'm for anything but having unjust laws at lock up someone. For the love of god if you fill the need to do something try and help out someone. that needs to get clean. I hate that no one gives a damn that we are under control maybe its the rebel in me but i have work with the government to change laws. See if I can get up and do something so can you. We have over crowding in jails cause of this bull shit. they lock up grandma pothead and let Joe rapist go free thats ass back words.

[GnArKiLL]

yap like Ronald Reagan and buddy Bush. the whole pack of liars.You seem a little to young to know about any of that. So here it is. You have been lied to about more than you know. take it from me. and the other older people. Look I'm for anything but having unjust laws at lock up someone. For the love of god if you fill the need to do something try and help out someone. that needs to get clean. I hate that no one gives a damn that we are under control maybe its the rebel in me but i have work with the government to change laws. See if I can get up and do something so can you. We have over crowding in jails cause of this bull shit. they lock up grandma pothead and let Joe rapist go free thats ass back words.

i was taking you seriously untill you said joe rapist, then i couldnt stop laughing

[MrGoff]

Sad thing is I know people that are locked up 25 to life for growing hemp. Not pot hemp,on their tribal land, and I know a guy that broke in to a house and ***** a woman in front or her kids and he's walking the streets. It makes me sick. I mean whats wrong with that pic. I think people are fighting the wrong war.

[Kidthorazine]

I can GUARANTEE a heroine addict will cause less harm to someone else then an alcoholic. So does that mean they should make booze illegal? A pot head is less likely to harm anyone, since they never get off the couch. HA! Generalization there, but hey if the shoe fits...

pretty much, if they get decent quality stuff they'll cause less harm to themselves too.

[Mindgames]

The argument over legalizing drugs simply doesn't run - half of us think it will be helpful, half don't. I doubt anyone reading this will change their minds, so we'll be arguing until our food is mashed up and Jax's wheelchair has tats on the tires.

No modern society has tried legalising all drugs, so it's impossible to argue that the levels of use would go one way or another. In Holland, legalisation of pot certainly didn't have the effect people thought it would (all the tales of a society collapsing into a Bob Dylan-esque stupor and giggling through life never happened). It's perfectly rational to say that making all drugs 'available' will lead to more people trying them, but it's equally rational to say that removing crime will take some of the 'cool' away from the topic and stop people trying it. Arguing that crime will reduce if drugs are legal makes sense, but the people living off drug money will still want their salary, so they'll find another outlet. MrGoff is right - if drug crime vanished then the cops would have time to concentrate on what's left, and many of us would welcome more effort to deal with the stuff like robbery, assaults, etc. - but 'crime' as a whole wouldn't go away, it'd just evolve. Gangs that fund themselves on drugs would turn to robbing banks...

Everyone's looking at this from within a society where the common-sense rules never figured at the get-go. If you had the option to go back a millennia or so, you'd band tobacco and alcohol before you'd ban many of our 'illegal' drugs, but we've been left with the outcome of historical ignorance and a lot of commerce. The only reason tobacco and alcohol are legal today is because of the trillions of dollars in trade over the last 300 years, which supported crime, slavery and funded the development of most of the continental USA. You can't call that "bad" or "good", it's too complex for a single answer. The same works now - looking at one addict can't predict how society would react to a change in the law, we'd have to try it and watch. As that's never going to happen, this topic is academically fun but pretty pointless to start falling out over!

mG

[the_darkness_calls]

seems like we should all agree to disagre on this one.... like others have said, there's no "right" answer to this, only opinions.

Should we feel sympathy for drug users? No - it's a choice and it backfired, but it was a choice. Sympathy is warranted for the reasons they needed to start, and the fact their lives aren't going too well, just the same as you'd have sympathy for someone being abused or someone who lost their job. The drugs are a reason but sympathy attaches to consequences, not reasons.

for the record, I wholeheartedly agree with this point of view. A lot of people I know do coke solely as a recreational thing just to have fun, simple as that, and I do not have any sympathy per se for them at all because they are choosing to do it knowing the effects and in doing so take the good with the bad. It doesn't mean I'm going to stop being friends with them, but I won't hang out with them when they're using because it's something I choose not to do and I don't want to be around it. These people know and respect that. You can have opinions on things but not be judgmental at the same time- I say do what you want, I'm certainly not going to tell anyone definitavely what they should or should not do (although I reserve the right to voice my opinion to them), but that doesn't mean that I'm indifferent to the issue.

[Velvet-Tongue]

Ive never read a logical argument for drug prohibition that ive agreed with. And its been proven time and time again that drug prohibintion does more harm than good. If they where legal, noone would buy them from criminals and no one other than the user would get hurt. And the potential for damage to the user would also be greatly reduced.

Its also been proven time and time again that allowing drug use does more harm then good. The facts never really seem to line up.

In the end it looks like its more of a moral issue. The Government can not sanction drug use. By allowing their legalization its telling the world that it supports addiction, hedonism, and so forth.

The user would still be getting hurt and we would be saying "thats cool with us". Yes Tobacco and Alcohol are legal, even though we know they hurt people and cause addiction. They have become such a large part of the culture that almost everyone has used them. I get to watch my bestfriend become addicted to cigarettes because "oh I won't get addicted" yeah man, half a pack a day is not addicted at all.

By allowing free access to much more horrible and highly addictive drugs you're saying its okay to use them. Not only is it okay, but its legal. The government would profit even more off abusing its citizens and allowing them to take addictive and hamrful substances into their body.

It's just not a good thing to do.

But as Mindgames said, its a loaded issue and their are two camps who will always be at odds on the idea. I'm sure I haven't changd your views and I know you haven't changed mine. So the whole discussion is fun but pointless.

[MrGoff]

"First they put away the dealers, keep our kids safe and off the streets Then they put away the prostitutes, keep married men cloistered at home Then they shooed away the bums then they beat and bashed the queers Turned away asylum seekers, fed us suspicions and fears We didn't raise a voice, we didn't make a fuss It's funny there was no one left to notice when they came for us"NOFX all hail bubble gun punk for wisdom and toe tappin beats.

[suicidal_tendencies]

I think that everyones entitled to their own opinions of the subject at hand, but either way you look at it, its still going to go on. I myself, have dealt with it and Im helping my fiance overcome his heroine addiction, hes been clean about a month btw, but to say that an addict doesnt deserve to live or whatever because they made a bad choice, is completely ridiculous. It just shows how judgemental people are and how people who have no idea need to learn to not talk about issues they dont understand.

[Morning Glory]

Its also been proven time and time again that allowing drug use does more harm then good. The facts never really seem to line up.

that depends on how you define "allow". or rather what you would do to not allow people to do so. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong, but I am going to state that I really feel the way it's been done so far hasn't worked. So i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you what you think should be done that would work better for the health of everyone, including the people that are addicted to drugs right now?

[TheDeathKnight]

With all government policies, you need to look at the facts. Is the plan working? In the case of drugs, it sure does not look like the war on drugs has stopped drug use, or even reduced it. The core issue is that people are unhappy. Unhappy people look for a way to be happy. There will always be some people who take the easy way out. Drugs are easy. They work. So do alcohol, cigarettes, etc. They are all drugs, and they all do the trick. They make people relaxed, or help them have fun, or give them energy, or entertain them, etc... One thing I have noticed, is that when the government cracks down on one drug, like crack, coke, heroin, then other drugs pop up. Like meth, oxycontin, saliva, etc... And I even saw a recent news story where a lot of kids were dying, because they were messing around with asphyxiation, as a way to get high. Or sniffing glue, or paint. So even if you managed to stop all the "illegal" drugs, people who are unhappy, will sniff paint, or glue, or just put their head in a plastic bag for the rush. So the whole war on drugs, to me, is just a huge waste of money. If you want to fix the problem, you have to look at the reasons why people do drugs to begin with. So let's say you either legalized drugs, or let's say you got rid of all drugs. Either way, there will still be some people who will be doing destructive things, to deal with their crappy lives. Some people will overeat. Some people will smoke cigarettes. Some people will do drugs. Some people will stick their head in plastic bags. But you can't stop them. But when they are ready to stop, and when they decide they want to try to make their lives better, then you can be there to help them. I think it would be better to just let the drugs be available, and put all the "war on drugs" money, into making our society better, and providing more education, more jobs, make cities safer, and providing treatment for people who need help. The amount of money we spend on drug enforcement, and prisons, is astronomical. If all that money could have been put into education, or other things, this country would be in a lot better shape. And guess what? If the country is kicking ass, and everyone is smart, and making good money, and everyone had good jobs, people probably would not feel so hopeless and unhappy. And you'd have less serious drug use...

[Camby Savelle]

I don't think there are many people who can honestly say they didn't know that the drug they were trying was going to be so addictive- perhaps nothing can prepare you for the feeling, but just about everyone is taught as early as grade school that doing drugs is bad.

The first time I tried meth I had no clue what it was or what it would do. I never even heard of it. Not in school, not outside of it, nowhere. After only a short time it was clear my "life" was becoming a nightmare. I would spend all night doing nothing but sitting in an empty apartment with my friends. We would smoke all night or figure out what to steal so we could smoke again the next night. For weeks and weeks at a time. I lost someone I cared alot about over meth and after that I was so strung out I couldn't function. I tried to kill someone and after that I made a promise in memory of the person I lost to never touch the stuff again. That was one of the most difficult things to ever do. This was years ago and til this day my body still begs for the stuff. If I'm in the same room as it I'll shake and my teeth with chatter.

[Camby Savelle]

why would i want anything to do with someone who doesn't want to quit, or says they do but don't do anything about it? i've seen it with everything from cigarettes to alcohol to pot to coke and crack to heroin. what does caring for someone who doesn't want to help themselves do for me? i can't make someone want to stop hurting themselves.

Because sometimes all it takes to help someone else is for another person to care about them. I've seen people coast through life time and time again not giving a fuck because they honestly feel that no one gives a fuck about them.

There have been plenty of days the old me woke up and sat in place just searching for a reason to go on another day, another week, sometimes just another hour. Some of the reasons I found were sooo small, so pathetic, you would laugh at them but they were a reason. If it weren't for the people who cared just a little tiny bit I probably wouldn't be here.

I know I'm not the only person who has felt that way either.

Just instead of saying to someone "Fuck you, if you don't help yourself you deserve what you get" maybe consider saying "I'm here if you need anything but if you don't get help I won't be here forever". Small things is all it takes to make a big change.

I do agree with your veiw points, especially that people always have a choice. Keep in mind that sometimes they don't see the choice though. I was locked up at 13 because I felt I didn't have a choice and now that I reflect upon it I think it was one of the dumbest desicions I ever made. Despite the fact when I made it I saw it as the only option.

I also agree that you shouldn't feel obligated to have symphony of others. Their choices weigh on their shoulders, not yours. They have to live with the outcome and not you. Perhaps this is very smart on your part, not a selfish virtue at all. Why would you willingly let someone self destructive into your life or continue to remain in your life if at very least you will be forced to witness their downfall. It's a good way to avoid unessicary pain by not doing so.

I realize that some of what I say may come across as hypocrisy but I don't have one solid view point on the situation. Like most things, I try to look at it from all sides and in the end conclude that my opinion usually doesn't matter one way or another.

[shiki]

i personally don't believe that people deserve to die just because they do drugs. Now if you accidently die whilst using drugs, especially ones you know will kill you, that is unfortunate but then that's asking for it.
i have experimented with all sorts of drugs. im glad i did. i can't imagine not doing that. but i guess that is all personal choice. I think the idea that people deserve to die cuz they make dangerous choices is like people who die climbing everest or riding motorcycles, or whatever...do they deserve to die cuz they made such risky choices?

[cheshire centauri]

Its also been proven time and time again that allowing drug use does more harm then good. The facts never really seem to line up.

huh?

In the end it looks like its more of a moral issue. The Government can not sanction drug use. By allowing their legalization its telling the world that it supports addiction, hedonism, and so forth.

morality should be dynamic and pragmatic. By allowing legalization your government would be progressing into a new moral era, not becoming amoral.

The drug policy blatantly admits that there seems to be a majority of reckless irresponsible dumb-fucks in the world who need to be protected from themselves.
Why not be absolutely democratic and let everyone make their own mistakes? some will learn, some will die: so it has always been.

[Cafe_Post_Mortem]

I think there is a misunderstanding about sympathy. Sympathy is not something people deserve or don't deserve, it is just a level of understanding. People who have been through similar things are sometimes more sympathetic, but sometimes it makes them less sympathetic. Psychiatry students probably know why.

There are as many reasons to get into dangerous drugs as there are people doing the dangerous drugs. I am sympathetic to a lot of them because I understand them at least a little. When times were bad for me, I had other escapes, not everyone does. Everyone has a choice, but not everyone has a clear view of all their choices. I can accept that and still have sympathy. Some people have other choices, but getting hooked on whatever is better than some or even all of their choices. Some people have a choice and just don't care what trouble they cause. I have a lot of sympathy for all but the last type, but I also know I can't always tell the last type from the others.

But having sympathy does not mean I have to put up with whatever they do. If they crap on my good graces my sympathy gets put aside. Being sympathetic does not mean someone gets to hurt me or mine. It does not mean I will help or encourage someone down a bad path. Sometimes understanding means you understand there is nothing you can do.

I just don't see any benefit to sitting around assuming they deserve what they get. Life is seldom about what people deserve or Paris Hilton and Donald Trump would be rescuing a lot more kittens. It is more about what people get and whether you can relate.

At least that's my take, I will cover the legalization end of this another time.

[karyn]

now seems like a good time to discuss peeves.

[Thistle Harlequin]

you chose your destination...u know what you're doing

[Deadly Envy]

You guys should see my 50 years old uncle.

He did meth, cocaine, and was a alcoholic and is still a pot head.

He lose all his teeth because of this and he have some odd nerve twicthes that cause him to be unable to stay still. Few people have observed him while he was asleep and they say he cannot stay still for more than 5 mins and sometime even end up on the floor.

[Raza]

The only thing more horrible than reanimating a dead thread is reanimating a controversial dead thread, knowing that anyone trolled into indignant declarations of superior opinion will be talking at a wall.

[LeilaHazlett]

I just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this...

I've never done heroin, nor have I done cocaine, or any of the other multitude of drugs that I am around on a daily (well, nightly) basis in my line of work. I have seen the people who choose to do them, I've seen the before/after, I've seen people disappear or die as a direct result of their habit.

Now, knowing that I can be around these types of drugs all the time without doing them, I feel no sympathy for people who start. I don't believe that anyone "doesn't have a choice", short of being held down and forcefully dosed every time. As difficult as it may be, anyone who truly wants to quit can quit... there are resources available. I don't think there are many people who can honestly say they didn't know that the drug they were trying was going to be so addictive- perhaps nothing can prepare you for the feeling, but just about everyone is taught as early as grade school that doing drugs is bad.

I would go as far as to say (and I have, and have been attacked for it) that anyone who willingly does/continues to do a highly-addictive & harmful substance, especially if they discuss it in an offhand manner or in an online journal, deserves to die... when they began, by not quitting, by being openly proud of it, they are signing their own death warrant. I don't feel sympathy for them, no matter how well I know them or how close we may have been before they started doing drugs. Even addicts have a choice- EVERYONE has a choice.

What do you guys think?

I love it when people who have no idea what they are talking about make gross generalizations about other people.

Not all addicts choose to do drugs. I was briefly addicted to painkillers because my spine was literally broken and I had to have surgery so I wouldn't die or become paralyzed from it. I didn't ask to be on morphine for 5 days straight, I just didn't have another option.

Yes most drug addicts do choose to do drugs, but have you never made a mistake in your life? Not everyone has drug education as a kid and many kids who become addicts grew up with parents who did drugs so to them it's a natural thing to do.

If you don't understand what it's like then fine, but there is no need to be a cunt to people who are having a hard time in their life.

[Head Wreck]

dabbled a bit with weed in my hippie youth hanging round folk festivals.

nowadays i hardly ever drink. its a personal choice though i dont trust the junkies.

[TheDeathKnight]

One other comment is that some people get more strongly addicted to things than others. So just because you are able to quit something without too much trouble, some other people have a much stronger physical dependency. The bottom line is that it's their choice, their life. If you don't like drugs, or don't like druggies, you don't have to hang around with them.

I have plenty of friends and co-workers who do drugs. From basic stuff like pot, to hard drugs. Some of them handle it totally fine, and only do them once in a while, on the weekends only. Some of them even space it out in terms of years. Like once every year or two they will do opium or something like that. But never as a habit. And other people go totally off the deep end, and ruin their lives. It's their choice. Not mine. I just have to decide if I want to be around them or not. Total junkies and addicts I don't like to be around, because they are always complaining about money and other drama and problems associated with their habits. But occasional users who don't affect me, or my life, are fine. If a friend wants to smoke a joint after work, I don't care. If they want to do E or acid on a weekend once a month, that's fine too. It all depends how their behavior affects me. As long as they handle it fine, and don't push it on me, I really don't care.

[aXa]

for some the message they take out of "drug education" is that they are bad and you should stay away from them. others see that as an enticement to seek them out and do them.

[LeilaHazlett]

for some the message they take out of "drug education" is that they are bad and you should stay away from them. others see that as an enticement to seek them out and do them.

I really really wish they would take a more realistic approach to drug education. I had to do the DARE program in elementary school and honestly that was the main reason I ended up experimenting with drugs. I remember watching a anti-drug cartoon and instead of just explaining what it's like to be stoned they had the characters physically turn to stone. It made drugs seem like some magical thing. I think being up front and honest about what drugs do to you would make kids much less interested in trying them. You can't really expect kids to have a realistic view on drugs if you're feeding them a bunch of BS.

[TheDeathKnight]

Yeah, my parents were hippies, and they were honest about it, since they had both done some drugs. They told me drugs *were* fun, and *were* enjoyable. But that they are also addictive, and bad for your body. That way you aren't lying about the fact that they are fun. But explaining why it's a bad idea to get started, and get hooked on them...

I think I really avoided them after a couple friends died in high school from Meth overdoses. It just made me realize that even though drugs ARE fun, the possible consequences are just not worth it...

But telling kids that drugs are horrible, just makes parents look like liars, because kids see their friends doing drugs, and having a great fucking time! So you lose all credibility with your kids. You have to be honest that drugs are fun, otherwise they will think you are full of shit.

[thegreendevil76]

I deal with drug addicts a lot. Some people can function for a while with an addiction to hard drugs, but their lives almost invariably go down the toilet. It starts with these shitheads from the "good" side of town coming over and buying dope (here it is usually crack). They think they have it under control or are just using recreationally, but when their habit gets worse they stop meeting their obligations and usually lose their jobs. But they still drive over and spend whatever money they can get on drugs. By this time their families are getting pretty sick of their shit and often leave or throw them out. As long as they still have a car they will continue to subsist for a while because dealers love using other people's cars (while they are out committing robberies, shootings, burglaries, etc.) and will trade dope for use of your car (we call it a rent-a-rock). Crackheads with cars always call and try to report the car stolen when the dealer doesn't return it as promised (imagine that, a drug dealer who isn't honest!). The car usually turns up trashed and abandoned somewhere after the car has been passed around to everyone the dealer knows. Of course the person either can't pay the tow/impound fee or they are delinquent on payments and it is reposessed. Now they have no choice but to live in the shitty part of town so they can be closer to the supply. Once they have no other way to buy drugs, they steal or sell some ass to get it. Drugs just make legions of thieves and hookers.

THAT is why I think drugs are evil, because all the good people in those neighborhoods (yes, there are good people living in shitty neighborhoods) have to deal with burglary, theft, robbery, and streetwalkers. I do NOT believe drug addiction is a disease, it is really more of a character defect. If you have an addictive personality or have a lot of other problems you should probably avoid drugs...they will just fuck you up worse.

[Morning Glory]

Fuck you lou reed

[Thistle Harlequin]

coke makes me take a shit..does it every time! haha

[Buster Friendly]

THAT is why I think drugs are evil, because all the good people in those neighborhoods (yes, there are good people living in shitty neighborhoods) have to deal with burglary, theft, robbery, and streetwalkers. I do NOT believe drug addiction is a disease, it is really more of a character defect. If you have an addictive personality or have a lot of other problems you should probably avoid drugs...they will just fuck you up worse.

I probably didn't qualify as the "good people" when I lived/grew up in a shitty neighborhood, I just didn't break any of those laws. (can you have a home made flame thrower, and still be "the good people"? What about knocking the teeth out of junkie muggers' mouths? Is that good, or bad? I can't tell anymore. Are scalpel's concealed weapons, or necessary medical supplies? And hunting squirels with buggy whips? Good people activity?)

but yeah, it's a fucking hassle to have to deal with that shit on a daily basis. Especially as a kid.

I have heard it said that drug dealing/smuggling will never end until you eliminate the users through aggressive treatment, which includes identifying at risk parties, and making sure that their triggering issues and needs are met with alternative solutions. ie. demand will always create supply.

[incog]

I like to party. I can afford to party and people always want to give me stuff for free. Sometimes it helps with creativity and sometimes it is just fun. Most nobody thinks we should outlaw butter or sugar but some people do too much and it is bad for them. Some people will brag about all the cake they ate when they are so fat they are obviously killing themselves. Some people just eat dessert when they want and it is no big deal. It should all be legal because the assholes who cannot handle it will be assholes anyway and then we just have more crime and unsafe conditions and assholes who are afraid they will get in trouble if they seek the help they need.