************ vs Lithium Picnic Lawsuit Settles

[The Newswire]

So I guess this is just weird sex trial coverage week at BlueBlood.net. First Max Hardcore gets convicted, then Ira Isaacs

Read the full article

[Amelia G]

I'm terribly amused that, of course, this headline came into the forum here filtered as "************". Even more humorously, when Apnea posted the lawsuit settlement in her own forums, hers filtered the same word to read "the worst site ever" which made the settlement statement just that little extra hilarious bit of surreal.

[Bikerpunk]

This wouldn't be a site named after a comment by Chuck Pahlanichuck right?

[Amelia G]

This wouldn't be a site named after a comment by Chuck Pahlanichuck right?

It gets its name from a passage in a Chuck Palaniuk novel where the protagonist is feeling superior to the sorts of adventurous women he is attracted to. He considers them alluring, helpless, fuckups and refers to them as "the ******* *****." So the derivation of the site's name tells you where they are coming from politically.

[One Eyed Cat]

Speaking in a very general sense: Is there a lack of clarity of law in this business? Beyond IP? This is getting weird dude-ette.

[Bikerpunk]

If it's that site, fuck em and GO LITHIUM PICNIC.

[Amelia G]

Speaking in a very general sense: Is there a lack of clarity of law in this business? Beyond IP? This is getting weird dude-ette.

You hit the nail on the head there. There is a tremendous gray area which keeps a lot of attorneys employed trying their best to interpret the unknowable. In that sort of a business climate, I think some people decide none of it matters and they ignore their contractual obligations and everything else having to do with legal anything. At a certain point, the legal system starts looking more like Russian Roulette than is strictly speaking ideal for a free society.

[Amelia G]

If it's that site, fuck em and GO LITHIUM PICNIC.

Read the article and see if you still think that. You probably won't because he is back supporting them like the last year and a half never happened.

[Bikerpunk]

Article missing...

[One Eyed Cat]

You hit the nail on the head there. There is a tremendous gray area which keeps a lot of attorneys employed trying their best to interpret the unknowable. In that sort of a business climate, I think some people decide none of it matters and they ignore their contractual obligations and everything else having to do with legal anything. At a certain point, the legal system starts looking more like Russian Roulette than is strictly speaking ideal for a free society.

Yeah, I came to that conclusion after taking sexuality law (even though this area was not covered). It really just isn't fair. Inevitably, the little guy gets hurt whilst the big corps pump cash into the system. I do see some hope, but I think it will be awhile before so-called "obscenity" laws are even close to just. Prosecutorial discretion doesn't cut it.

[Amelia G]

Article missing...

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[Malixe]

I am baffled and amazed. There's tons of testimonials online from former SG models about what happened to them as soon as they started showing any sign of expressing independent and/or critical thought in their role as suicide girls. They were banished/vanished from the site and the most oppressive terms of an oppressive and indecent contract were rigidly enforced on them.

I thought the Lithium Picnic suit was just the most egregious example of this, but I didn't need it to establish for me that the heads of the SG 'corporation' were evil sacks of shit.

So yeah. After all the sturm und drang and the pleas for help and assistance, to have LP and Apnea make a 180-degree about face on their relationship with SG is extremely disillusioning if not downright disgusting.

I just don't get it.

[Amelia G]

I am baffled and amazed. There's tons of testimonials online from former SG models about what happened to them as soon as they started showing any sign of expressing independent and/or critical thought in their role as suicide girls. They were banished/vanished from the site and the most oppressive terms of an oppressive and indecent contract were rigidly enforced on them.

I thought the Lithium Picnic suit was just the most egregious example of this, but I didn't need it to establish for me that the heads of the SG 'corporation' were evil sacks of shit.

So yeah. After all the sturm und drang and the pleas for help and assistance, to have LP and Apnea make a 180-degree about face on their relationship with SG is extremely disillusioning if not downright disgusting.

I just don't get it.

Amen.

[VoltaireBlue]

I am speechless.

[Bikerpunk]

Money talks, I'm afraid.

[Amelia G]

I am speechless.

I'm totally weirded out that all four of the legal cases I covered on BlueBlood.net this week ended in exactly the way one would never expect.

[Amelia G]

Money talks, I'm afraid.

Max Hardcore makes bank and the court found against him.

[One Eyed Cat]

I still don't understand how they snuck up on everyone like that. I remember when they were instant messaging for models.

OEC

[Amelia G]

I still don't understand how they snuck up on everyone like that. I remember when they were instant messaging for models.

OEC

They were at the forefront of modern fake-ass sock-puppet disingenuous pseudo grassroots marketing. I admit that we totally helped them out with free advertising and advice when they first launched because we believed it was a couple of punk rockers out of Portland trying to do something cool. By the time it was obvious to us that Sean Suhl had lied about all sorts of things, engaged in sock puppet attacks on sites like EroticBPM, and was just not what he'd claimed, it was a little late. The venture capital (or at least connections) that 3Jane had, combined with a pretense to be boot-strapping it, was a potent combo in a time before people realized that "indie" on the internet is usually bullshit.

I blame the people who object to overt advertising. They make it so that evil corporations start the most dishonest viral marketing campaigns and invade spaces which should have real conversations and real journalism. There is a certain humor value in cynical consumers causing marketers to do waaaaaaay more cynical things in their marketing.

And, for what it is worth, not every adult site effort Sean Suhl and company attempted broke through. Anyone remember TheBivvy with its identical-to-SG creation story?

[One Eyed Cat]

They were at the forefront of modern fake-ass sock-puppet disingenuous pseudo grassroots marketing. I admit that we totally helped them out with free advertising and advice when they first launched because we believed it was a couple of punk rockers out of Portland trying to do something cool. By the time it was obvious to us that Sean Suhl had lied about all sorts of things, engaged in sock puppet attacks on sites like EroticBPM, and was just not what he'd claimed, it was a little late. The venture capital (or at least connections) that 3Jane had, combined with a pretense to be boot-strapping it, was a potent combo in a time before people realized that "indie" on the internet is usually bullshit.

I blame the people who object to overt advertising. They make it so that evil corporations start the most dishonest viral marketing campaigns and invade spaces which should have real conversations and real journalism. There is a certain humor value in cynical consumers causing marketers to do waaaaaaay more cynical things in their marketing.

And, for what it is worth, not every adult site effort Sean Suhl and company attempted broke through. Anyone remember TheBivvy with its identical-to-SG creation story?

I just didn't pay much attention at the time. One of my friends wanted to introduce me to some of em around '02. I found the site "odd" for some reason and never joined. I think his g/f quit shortly after that. Seemed like they were mega-celeb hungry as well. Worked to a point I suppose.

[HeadlessBill]

I keep thinking this would be a great documentary topic to pursue when I complete my current one. Though I also think it'll be one-sided, since I doubt that anyone from SG would talk to me.

[Syrran]

Honestly the "scene" is dying no matter how you look at it. If there is a promise of some sort of enlightenment or righteousness...people are going to run with it without much question. People want to be a part of something big and make a difference its in their nature.

I will admit to feeling sympathy for Both LP and Apnea in the beginning. Especially with the track record of SG. However, when I saw how cult like the mindset of people became with their t-shirts and pictures of them with forks all the benefits etc...with no way of telling how much was being raised...it was definitely a red flag. Even now there are people congratulating him without even thinking about his post not long after about moving to Los Angeles. Would someone who needed money to cover legal bills suddenly decide to move to LA from Texas and look at renting a new space etc?

The whole thing is fishy, and I may sound a bit cynical here but if people aren't smart enough think for themselves and ask the right questions then maybe this scene SHOULD die so a better scene can rise from its ashes. That isn't to say I feel that everyone who supported them were idiots..just that this isn't just about the big bad con artist, its about people who let themselves be conned. I really hope this was at the very least a learning experience for the community, it certainly was for me.

[Amelia G]

Honestly the "scene" is dying no matter how you look at it. If there is a promise of some sort of enlightenment or righteousness...people are going to run with it without much question. People want to be a part of something big and make a difference its in their nature.

I will admit to feeling sympathy for Both LP and Apnea in the beginning. Especially with the track record of SG. However, when I saw how cult like the mindset of people became with their t-shirts and pictures of them with forks all the benefits etc...with no way of telling how much was being raised...it was definitely a red flag. Even now there are people congratulating him without even thinking about his post not long after about moving to Los Angeles. Would someone who needed money to cover legal bills suddenly decide to move to LA from Texas and look at renting a new space etc?

The whole thing is fishy, and I may sound a bit cynical here but if people aren't smart enough think for themselves and ask the right questions then maybe this scene SHOULD die so a better scene can rise from its ashes. That isn't to say I feel that everyone who supported them were idiots..just that this isn't just about the big bad con artist, its about people who let themselves be conned. I really hope this was at the very least a learning experience for the community, it certainly was for me.

I worry that the lesson to all of us is to trust no one. I mean, I used to always get excited about tons of new projects and be really into supporting new ones. SG got a lot of benefit out of me feeling like it was just one big happy scene and I should be supportive of these new young punks (actually not new, not young, not punk, not appreciative, etc.) After getting burned by them, I am very wary of supporting any other new projects and I'm sure I've passed over some folks who could have used some support and deserved it. And I'm sure I've been passed over by folks who would have been into supporting what I truly am but just can't believe in anything any more.

That said, you are very very very right in that the whole cultlike mentality a lot of people online seem to attack to certain sorts of viral marketing . . . well, it is not a good thing, doesn't really smack of quality critical thinking. I truly believe that critical thinking is crucial, no matter how much one's gut might be either over-excitable or sick of it all.

[Syrran]

I worry that the lesson to all of us is to trust no one. I mean, I used to always get excited about tons of new projects and be really into supporting new ones. SG got a lot of benefit out of me feeling like it was just one big happy scene and I should be supportive of these new young punks (actually not new, not young, not punk, not appreciative, etc.) After getting burned by them, I am very wary of supporting any other new projects and I'm sure I've passed over some folks who could have used some support and deserved it. And I'm sure I've been passed over by folks who would have been into supporting what I truly am but just can't believe in anything any more.

I think that everyone has a challenge to find the balance between being too trusting and too cautious. I don't think that any of this had made me jaded personally. I feel it was a good lesson in doing a decent job researching any projects or causes you want to support yes, but there will always be a time where I need to take a risk and just go for it.

[AgentAeon]

Reason #92384039843 why I'm glad the only alt.porn comm I ever posed for was BlueBlood.
I never felt "used", I never questioned the morals or intentions of the people behind it and I knew that even 7 years later, I could be proud of something I'd been a part of.

It's a shame, really. I've always liked Apnea and LithiumPicnic. Superb model and photographer.
It just feels so...ugh, the whole thing makes me feel like such a pawn.

[One Eyed Cat]

Honestly the "scene" is dying no matter how you look at it. If there is a promise of some sort of enlightenment or righteousness...people are going to run with it without much question. People want to be a part of something big and make a difference its in their nature.

I will admit to feeling sympathy for Both LP and Apnea in the beginning. Especially with the track record of SG. However, when I saw how cult like the mindset of people became with their t-shirts and pictures of them with forks all the benefits etc...with no way of telling how much was being raised...it was definitely a red flag. Even now there are people congratulating him without even thinking about his post not long after about moving to Los Angeles. Would someone who needed money to cover legal bills suddenly decide to move to LA from Texas and look at renting a new space etc?

The whole thing is fishy, and I may sound a bit cynical here but if people aren't smart enough think for themselves and ask the right questions then maybe this scene SHOULD die so a better scene can rise from its ashes. That isn't to say I feel that everyone who supported them were idiots..just that this isn't just about the big bad con artist, its about people who let themselves be conned. I really hope this was at the very least a learning experience for the community, it certainly was for me.

It's a mentality that goes way beyond that company. I see it all around me now. Kicks just ain't the same. We're the same though. If we have (or regained) our sanity, we shouldn't change. Fuck em.

OEC

[Obscuria.com]

This is sad...the slow decay of moral backbone, replaced with dispassionate greed - it's nothing new, but still shocking in this case.

[Morning Glory]

hey now, don't bring Chuck into this.

they actually have a few really good writers that post articles on that site. I have been surprised on more than one occasion. (not that I go there, I just see the articles linked elsewhere.) I just can't imagine that they get any respect there. I don't know what the deal is.

[Mindgames]

Why should it be any different in 'our' community than in the general business-eat-business world we all live in when we're not playing our alt-card? Irrespective of the outcome of the case, people seem to be shocked that "such a thing could happen here" - as if "here" is somehow protected from the same drivers as the rest of the planet. Sorry to burst bubbles, but the alt community isn't a loyal group of friends in a squat anymore (not that it ever was) - it's a billion dollar industry with the same icing of corruption, greed and misdirection everyone's used to from the big corporates, because they're milking it.

Amelia - I understand your "I worry that the lesson.." post, but this case was a breach-of-contract claim and not an IP rights issue (which happens to be kinda fortuitous for all involved as it kept the case in circuit instead of the push to federal required for T17 cases, and so keeps it off Justia). I can't see it extends anywhere beyond the parties involved, who we all have opinions on already. The idea that when there's money on the table, people try and push contracts to breaking point is hardly something we're only just learning - and that people will use hype and emotional blackmail to try and force a settlement is the plot line of every episode of Shark. The SG-GodsGirls case will be more interesting in terms of industry fallout.

[One Eyed Cat]

Why should it be any different in 'our' community than in the general business-eat-business world we all live in when we're not playing our alt-card? Irrespective of the outcome of the case, people seem to be shocked that "such a thing could happen here" - as if "here" is somehow protected from the same drivers as the rest of the planet. Sorry to burst bubbles, but the alt community isn't a loyal group of friends in a squat anymore (not that it ever was) - it's a billion dollar industry with the same icing of corruption, greed and misdirection everyone's used to from the big corporates, because they're milking it.

Amelia - I understand your "I worry that the lesson.." post, but this case was a breach-of-contract claim and not an IP rights issue (which happens to be kinda fortuitous for all involved as it kept the case in circuit instead of the push to federal required for T17 cases, and so keeps it off Justia). I can't see it extends anywhere beyond the parties involved, who we all have opinions on already. The idea that when there's money on the table, people try and push contracts to breaking point is hardly something we're only just learning - and that people will use hype and emotional blackmail to try and force a settlement is the plot line of every episode of Shark. The SG-GodsGirls case will be more interesting in terms of industry fallout.

SG v. GG? A separate case or are the parties mentioned also GG? This is getting comical. What industry fallout do you see as possible in these cases? Just curious at this point.

OEC

[Amelia G]

As a journalist, it troubled me that the only factual support I had for Philip Warner making his dough off of real estate versus photography was court documents showing SG did not pay him enough to live on and my recollections from gossip sites. I'm pleased to be able to document this better with a quote from an interview with Philip in the Real Detroit Weekly:

"I was making a lot of money working at Sapient, but I was working 60 hours a week and traveling all the time. I was getting really burnt out on that. I decided to invest in real estate so I bought a duplex in a warehouse in downtown Houston and then the Internet bubble crashed and they shut down the office that I worked at. That’s when I took a forced jump into becoming a handyman landlord, and that lifestyle is where I had the free time and luxury to start getting into photography."

Later in the article he frets about having risked his "retirement and 401k" like that definitely makes him a charity case. I wonder how many of the people who donated to his defense own income real estate or have retirement and 401k investments.

[YoungSoulRebel]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I was disillusioned with "the scene" LONG before any of the SG bullshit.

Of course, I looked like crap until I stopped dying my hair black.

[a_small_death]

This whole situation reads like a damn comic book. I figured these people were off their gourd but not Margo Kidder bad. How does this guy figure that a year and a half in the shit never happened and that fucking happy go sucky nothing ever happed statement at the end what's that all about. You'd have to admit the hole thing is most laughable. Much like the R. Kelly trail turning out like the episode of the Boondocks.

[Mindgames]

Later in the article he frets...

True, but the wording isn't exactly supportive of your premise - for example he says some of the property is up for sale to cover legal bills. These days owning income property doesn't equate to getting an income - I have no idea about his particular finances but you can't extrapolate someone's liquid assets from their fixed assets, especially in a falling market.

And for the record I don't have any particular axe to grind for or against Phil or Apnea - I'm not saying if I agree with their actions or not as it's irrelevant to the wider issues of this thread, but before slating them for not clarifying things, remember there's an NDA on the settlement, which is there for a damn good reason. I fully respect the powers of journalism, but it's no good trying to weedle past it or to expect either party to suddenly explain themselves and get dragged back to court for breaching it. NDA = boilerplate statements - so it is, so it shall always be, and many a closeted skeleton is duly grateful.

(though I've always thought closets were a poor choice for hiding corpses, what with the maggots in the sneakers and all...)

[Lady Alias]

I never thought it would end...let alone like this.

[Amelia G]

True, but the wording isn't exactly supportive of your premise - for example he says some of the property is up for sale to cover legal bills. These days owning income property doesn't equate to getting an income - I have no idea about his particular finances but you can't extrapolate someone's liquid assets from their fixed assets, especially in a falling market.

And for the record I don't have any particular axe to grind for or against Phil or Apnea - I'm not saying if I agree with their actions or not as it's irrelevant to the wider issues of this thread, but before slating them for not clarifying things, remember there's an NDA on the settlement, which is there for a damn good reason. I fully respect the powers of journalism, but it's no good trying to weedle past it or to expect either party to suddenly explain themselves and get dragged back to court for breaching it. NDA = boilerplate statements - so it is, so it shall always be, and many a closeted skeleton is duly grateful.

(though I've always thought closets were a poor choice for hiding corpses, what with the maggots in the sneakers and all...)

In this wretched economy, almost nobody is having an easy time of it. Certainly, this is not a fabulous time to be in real estate like Philip or in membership sites like **. I'm not saying that he is so rich that he could afford to have endless legal battles without feeling a pinch.

However, he solicited donations from a pool of people, the majority of whom I would hazard a guess do not own property or a 401k or other retirement fund. He solicited donations specifically within the creative community where people assumed he was a somewhat successful but starving artist like them.

[funkatron]

Wow, that is a whole lot sadder than I thought it would be. I thought it was shitty to turn a boring contract dispute into a foolish holy war, but this demonstrates a complete and utter lack of principle.

If I had to whore my morals to make a living, I'd explore some other career options before sucking dick.

[Joel Awesome]

Just yesterday I convinced a girl to not model for SG because of their restrictive contracts and in a good part because of how they treated Phil. I like Philip and Apnea, I was the first guy he ever shot (i was such a terrible amature model, and nothing much has changed on that front) because we share a number of good friends and they convinced him to do it. So I don't want to say anything bad about him personaly , but the situation sucks. SG and LP would have done better to have a transparent settlement that would ease public sentiment as opposed to what we have to presume is a behind doors NDA locked agreement.
Artists and Community sites live and die by their reputation the maintenance of which is paramount to any embarrassment that could be incurred by the settlement terms.
I'm also wondering when some enterprising young lawyer will decide to champion a class action against LP for potential misapplication of donated money which could be used to subpoena the accounts and prove to the community that their money was or was not mishandled. That'd be a nice workaround on that NDA (if there is one). Also it seems strange that if SG has decided to drop it that they wouldn't have sweetened the pot with an amelioration of the legal fees incurred by Philip.

Also I'm glad Phil is moving to LA as I'm always happy when a fellow Houstonian manages to escape that god-awful hell pit.

[lithiumpicnic]

I said I put all my life savings (401k) and retirement into buying these two old fixer upper houses - I've never done better than breaking even with "real estate" it's not ever been a source of positive income for me it's been a source of support and space for me to work in Houston where the cost of living is low.

I put the property on the market over a year ago and wasn't able to generate sufficient interest in this economy and in their condition to do much better than walking away from the mortages.

As for "soliciting donations" I was very firm about only selling prints, shirts, and personal stuff on ebay for almost all of the two year battle - it wasn't until the very end and desperation around the looming trial that we created a chipin applet and it was only live for 30 days and raised about 3k. That's a small dent in over $40,000 in legal fees.

I've spent over $18,000 in fees to my attorney and currently owe them over $25,000 - the income generated from fundraising never exceed the amount owed.

Thanks.

In this wretched economy, almost nobody is having an easy time of it. Certainly, this is not a fabulous time to be in real estate like Philip or in membership sites like **. I'm not saying that he is so rich that he could afford to have endless legal battles without feeling a pinch.

However, he solicited donations from a pool of people, the majority of whom I would hazard a guess do not own property or a 401k or other retirement fund. He solicited donations specifically within the creative community where people assumed he was a somewhat successful but starving artist like them.

[lithiumpicnic]

For what it's worth my electricity and gas have been turned off twice during the past two years becuase i couldn't pay it - I think you've got a lot of incorrect ideas and theories about me.

I understand though, if i were you I probably wouldn't like me either.

I know better than to stick around and argue with tar baby, I've said what i came to say I'm out. Keep hacking away in my absence, it's what you do best.

However, he solicited donations from a pool of people, the majority of whom I would hazard a guess do not own property or a 401k or other retirement fund. He solicited donations specifically within the creative community where people assumed he was a somewhat successful but starving artist like them.