Should food animals have enough room to move around?

[Amelia G]

California Proposition 2: Standards for Confining Farm Animals was one of the referendums in my home state.

A yes on this requires that calves raised for veal, egg-laying hens and pregnant pigs be confined only in ways that allow these animals to lie down, stand up, fully extend their limbs and turn around freely, although it does not start until 2015.

Arguments against include possible hikes in the price of basics like eggs or tax revenue loss if farmers move to other states.

I personally pay a little extra to buy free range whenever possible, so, if all farmers had to do free range, I think the eggs I personally might by would go down in price. But that is, of course, not why I support this measure.

Should food animals have enough room to move around or is cost-efficiency for feeding humans more important than avoiding cruelty to animals?

[Mr Karl]

hmmmm.......interesting question

[Thistle Harlequin]

yes, animals should have room

[Morning Glory]

I'm going to say no. the reason is that I believe this law is just so that they can still continue to be cruel to animals in other ways and say "well, we passed the law and so that's that" and use it as an excuse to avoid any further legislation to help animals.

I really don't think that the food industry has any interest in helping animals, anymore than I believe that T. Pickens ( the former Texas oil Barron who now is lobbying for wind power) cares about helping the environment. If they are doing it it is because it helps them to profit in some way.

We shouldn't settle for half assed appeasements, let's do some real comprehensive changes in policy.

[Lady Alias]

I disagree, MG. Baby steps.

[Morning Glory]

as cynical as I have been on here lately, I actually have some hope for the future; more than has seemed possible for a long time. just the fact that issues like this are getting mainstream consideration is a big deal and I think that it shows that change is possible, if slow coming.

[VoltaireBlue]

I think that cruelty to animals should be avoided at all costs. don't get me wrong here; I'm not vegan or even vegetarian, but I don't want to eat animals that suffered in life. I believe in energy and karma, and I don't want to eat bad energy or bring it into my body whatsoever.

that is all..... *steps off soapbox*

[One Eyed Cat]

Yes, they should definitely receive more humane treatment. Glad that appears to be passing by a wide majority.

[Morning Glory]

well, I'm not a California voter, so it doesn't really matter. But what I said was keeping in line with what I had heard about it from people there- animal rights people that were mistrusting of the bill. I don't really know what the fine details are, that might change it for me.

also people that are anti-cars and oil were against the alternative energy bill, which seemed surprising to me. It could be that they are either just totally anti-any new legislation, or else there is a lot of spin on the issues.

I remember a prop here in AZ that was advertised as anti-smoking and it was really to lessen smoking restrictions and it was sponsored by the tobacco lobby.

[Amelia G]

well, I'm not a California voter, so it doesn't really matter. But what I said was keeping in line with what I had heard about it from people there- animal rights people that were mistrusting of the bill. I don't really know what the fine details are, that might change it for me.

also people that are anti-cars and oil were against the alternative energy bill, which seemed surprising to me. It could be that they are either just totally anti-any new legislation, or else there is a lot of spin on the issues.

I remember a prop here in AZ that was advertised as anti-smoking and it was really to lessen smoking restrictions and it was sponsored by the tobacco lobby.

There were two green referendums in California on my ballot. One was to put the state further in debt to fund research. Some people felt that one was sketchy and most likely more corporate welfare. One was to level the playing field so that public utilities had to put as much of a % of revenue towards renewable energy as private companies are required to.

And, yeah, I'm with Voltaire on that. I eat a very very high protein diet. If I don't, I get really depressed. I can't imagine trying to consume that level of protein combining beans and grains or something. But I think it should be done as humanely as possible. The thing I really disliked about the anti animal cruelty ballot was that the change does not become law until 2015. I realize farmers need some time to raise capital and make changes to their facilities, but that is a long time to wait. Still, I felt that it would be an improvement when it does hopefully become law.

[Morning Glory]

ah, I see. it's like the 35 MPG standard by 2025 that got passed. that's not even "make a small change now so we don't have to make a big one later", that's "we don't have to do anything, but say that we did and then shoot it down after everyone has forgotten about it."

[Wickedanima]

I think free-ranging food can only be better for everyone to be honest. The healthier, and to risk sounding a bit wa-wah, more 'Natural' our future food is treated, the better. They should be fed grass, corn, oats... Try to keep as much hormones out of them as possible (which should be next to none), and let them wander around as they please.

Of course, I also feel as though our non-meat food should be treated better as well, but I'm sure that's another rant.

[mystoo]

That's tough question to answer. I love animals but I also love to eat them. Free range is good and everything but would that mean no more veal? Cuz I really like veal.

[Toe Cutter]

Factory farming is disgusting. In my opinion it should be be banned. I would have voted yes, and perhaps even put a sign in my yard.

[VoltaireBlue]

That's tough question to answer. I love animals but I also love to eat them. Free range is good and everything but would that mean no more veal? Cuz I really like veal.

I've never eaten veal for two reasons: 1. when I was growing up my parents were too poor, and 2. when I found out how it is raised I was too grossed out to try it, and it still grosses me out. so does lamb, and foie gras and a few others that I absolutely refuse to eat; or wear for that matter.

the only thing that makes it veal is that its a calf, not a cow.

[mystoo]

Lamb is delicious! Really good in curry.
I knew about veal being calves but I thought they were kept in confined spaces as well.
What the hell is foie gras anyway?

[OliX]

Yes... Hopefully price will go up too and make people eat less meat.

[Toe Cutter]

What the hell is foie gras anyway?

It's force-fed duck. Also quite tough to look at.


Did the bill pass?

[Lady Alias]

Yes... Hopefully price will go up too and make people eat less meat.

I can roll with that.

[mystoo]

It's force-fed duck. Also quite tough to look at.

Ohhh...thanks. I've never had duck before. I wonder if it tastes like.........chicken?

[Morning Glory]

more 'Natural' our future food is treated, the better.

why is that? I would think the best thing would be to clone them and pump them full of synthetic proteins.

I can appreciate that you want to ease animal suffering, but like the whole point is taking a being and turning it into a consumer product. to talk about doing it "naturally" just seems like a total dichotomy. It seems to me that the only natural thing would be to let the animals live out their lives in their own environment.

[Amelia G]

Ohhh...thanks. I've never had duck before. I wonder if it tastes like.........chicken?

Duck is a much more gamey tasting bird than chicken. More similar to say BBQ pork than chicken.

Foie gras is solely the livers of force fed birds, not the whole animal.

I had foie gras as a kid with my parents in Paris and thought it was delicious, kinda like meaty butter. Now that I know what it is and how it is made, for moral reasons, I will not eat it. It is one thing to be at the top of the food chain, but it is quite another to torture an animal for its whole life before eating it. I can't even imagine what fucked up way people discovered foie gras in the first place. Like who was the first sicko who tried out torturing ducks and discovered that duck liver damaged by force-feeding could taste good? WTF? Just totally vile.

[mystoo]

Meaty butter like, pate? Either way that's pretty nasty, but thanks for filling me in on the nastiness

[Buster Friendly]

Animals that get exercise closer to their natural environment are healthier to eat.

[Amelia G]

Meaty butter like, pate? Either way that's pretty nasty, but thanks for filling me in on the nastiness

Yes, exactly, foie gras is pate, although I believe it is possible to make pate which is not foie gras.

[Morning Glory]

Animals that get exercise closer to their natural environment are healthier to eat.

that brings up an interesting quandary. If people are less likely to eat unhealthy animals, then wouldn't it be better for animal rights to not make them healthier? I'd rather be sick than dead.

[Mr Karl]

Meaty butter like, pate? Either way that's pretty nasty, but thanks for filling me in on the nastiness

want real nasty, try goose

[Mr Karl]

in a way though, it seems kinda cruel to give a food animal a nice life and then do it in, at least if it was haveing a shitty life you could at least see it as putting it out of it's misery.

of course I dream of the day when all we need to eat is a paste made up of synthetic food and then all those farm animals will become obsolete thus completely depriving them of any chance of a life..........now is that cruel?

bah........food

[Buster Friendly]

Well, since most animals...all? ...that we eat are somewhere on the food chain, we don't eat too many predators (except fish) I don't feel too bad about giving them a decent life, and then quick death.

I did the hard core (level 5) vegan thing for a number of years, and eventually came to the conclusion that it was not the most healthy way for humans to live after having met, and hung out with hundreds of vegans. Not necessarily a bad, or super unhealthy way to live, certainly much better than cheetos, and diet coke, but not healthy for every single human on the planet necessarily. My thoughts on nutrition evolved over the years.

Alot of my convictions from that time have stuck though. Factory farming is an abomination. Most agribiz meats, and animal products are poisonous to humans. Vegetarian lifestyles can be more ecologically sound (flying tropical fruits halfway around the world isn't so much.) Most people could stand to eat more veggies period. (although maybe not exclusively.)

Anyway... less rant, more sleep. yay.

[Morning Glory]

my view on eating meat is like using a gun for self defense. sure, maybe there are times when you gotta do it, but most of the time you don't.

[Wickedanima]

why is that? I would think the best thing would be to clone them and pump them full of synthetic proteins.

I can appreciate that you want to ease animal suffering, but like the whole point is taking a being and turning it into a consumer product. to talk about doing it "naturally" just seems like a total dichotomy. It seems to me that the only natural thing would be to let the animals live out their lives in their own environment.

We can't clone synthetic proteins, or we haven't put enough resources into replicated proteins to make them a viable option for consumption.

And that is why I put "natural" in quotes.

The fact is that putting crap in our food directly effects us. Purely selfish. I don't want my food pumped full of steroids/hormones/crap, left to rot in their own shit, or have my cows fed other cows... that leads to ill health, disease, and a multitude of other sins.

I give only the vaguest crap about easing suffering. Healthy food = Healthy me. It just so happens that easing suffering is a happy byproduct of my food living a better life.

[Morning Glory]

well, no offense but why should anyone give a shit about what you think when the basis of your argument is "purely selfish"?

we have this thing called a society, when you are ready to join it, then your opinion regarding what other people can do will be taken into consideration.

[Raza]

Nice phrasing there. Should sex slaves be able to demand condom-usage?

well, no offense but why should anyone give a shit about what you think when the basis of your argument is "purely selfish"?

we have this thing called a society, when you are ready to join it, then your opinion regarding what other people can do will be taken into consideration.

Lookit this moral authority. Ask not what your country can do for you...

Selfish arguments are to be taken into consideration because as a society, we consist of individuals that should be presumed to pursue their own interests first and foremost. This is perfectly desirable, as the idea that we should maintain some form of social unity at all rests entirely on the argument that by cooperating, we can achieve greater value for each of us personally - not by redefining 'value', but through some form of synergistic effort.

[soma_stardust]

i voted yes on prop 2.
i'm a *pescatarian* (will eat sushi...)
i'd rather no animals had to die for human consumption (except sushi)
but if they have to, they need to be treated like living beings, with as little suffering as possible. (even sushi)

[soma_stardust]

I've never eaten veal for two reasons: 1. when I was growing up my parents were too poor, and 2. when I found out how it is raised I was too grossed out to try it, and it still grosses me out. so does lamb, and foie gras and a few others that I absolutely refuse to eat; or wear for that matter.

the only thing that makes it veal is that its a calf, not a cow.

same.
i think i ate lamb once, when i was unaware of it. you know, one of those mom things.
me: "what this?"
mom: "meat."
me: "what kind of meat?"
mom: "it's just meat."
-_-
i get upset when people eat lamb or veal in front of me, but what can i do? sometimes my roommate gets it from the food bank thing w/e so i mean, it's free. i can't complain that she shouldn't eat it. free food is free food. it makes me ill to think about it though.

[mystoo]

You get lamb and veal from the food bank?? That shit is expensive!
All I ever get is hot dogs and Mr. Noodles.....

Anyway, this thread is making me hungry...........

[VoltaireBlue]

The fact is that putting crap in our food directly effects us. Purely selfish. I don't want my food pumped full of steroids/hormones/crap, left to rot in their own shit, or have my cows fed other cows... that leads to ill health, disease, and a multitude of other sins.
-wickedanima.

I happen to share this opinion; just call me selfish, lol. the fact is, the world is made up of opinions. everyone's got one and you're probably not going to agree with most of them. but to insult someone just because you don't agree with them is fucking weak.

[VoltaireBlue]

btw, that was directed @ MG;just to avoid confusion.

[Morning Glory]

I see what you guys are saying and I even concede the point the WA was making. But I found the way that it was phrased to be juvenile and obnoxious, so I responded, perhaps too harshly and equally immature, with hostility.

Of course you should do what is good for you, but I believe in the golden rule, and if what is good for you is harmful or imposing on others then it becomes a slippery slope. One could make the same argument that what is in the best interest of the commercial farmers is for them to treat the animals in such a way that maximizes their profit, and so it could then be asked what makes your interest more valid than theirs?

[Mr Karl]

hmmm, well let's say I was a cannibal. I think then I wouldn't want just any old person on the grill..........I probably would be sort of picky about how the meat was raised, sort of like it was an alchemical process

and then all that would be a waste cause I'd just want it in soylent green form anyway..............