should we really focus on rebuilding the car industry or.....

[malcolm]

one of the things obama wants to do is rebuild the car industry and make it more competitive in price and quality as japan,germany and other countries that have been dominating the automotive market since the seventies.

the major car companies out here however are ford, general motors, dodge and i think hummer is out here too as well as cadillac which have become more known for making mammoth sized gas guzzling trucks and suvs that can flip on hair pin turns and not eveyrone who owns one properly knows how to drive one and although they are dieal for family cars as far as size and people capacity, but are not always very affordable for families to afford one especially in the economy we are in right now.

personally, i think we should focus on the alcohol and tobacco industry. this country's first major export was tobacco and it was pretty damn successful for quite a while and alcohol? well, this country has the proper climate to grow bulks of rice for sake, sugarcane for rum,potatoes for vodka and grains for beer nott o mention corn for whiskey and grapes for wine. some of the more known alchol brands are from right here in the u.s.a like jack daniels, jim beam,smirnoff,captain morgan, budweiser etc. and even california has become quite competitive internationally in the wine market. and even though not eveyrone can afford a pt cruiser or a tricked out escalade, pretty much most responsible adults can afford a bottle of brandy or whiskey or champagne (<3!)

butt hat's just my opinion. what do you think? do you think we can eventually have some cars made righthere on the market that are competitive with the cars from other countries? or do you think we should focus on other markets we can do?

[Mr Karl]

all the auto industry's gotta do is make cars that people actually want to spend thier money on and not the shit they've been pumping out the last bunch of years

[malcolm]

theyre saying gm might go belly up even after all that money they just tossed at em cus of union contractors. think they said union employees there amke like close to thirty bucks an hour just for screwing in bolts and shit.

[Mr Karl]

actually they got robots to do the screwing.............people just help the robots.

Actually it's disgusting how much union autoworkers make

[malcolm]

it is isnt it? i think it's ridiculous how much those guys make for what little they do and in the long run that gets passed down tot eh consumer because htye have to make up the cost of paying all of them plus materials plus profit ugh. i think if they cut down what they made in oh say half that might help too.

i mean, dont get me wrong. when unions first started showing up in factories, they had a puprose. providing good working conditions at the factories, establishing safety protocols and even breaks and lunch periods etc. but now, they've gotten just as bloate din my eye as the execs have.

[Deadly Envy]

I think we can help them rebuilding. First action we should take is getting a big group of mobs together, light a torch and carry a pitch fork to all of CEOs, executives, and anybody who decide on what would be made, how to use public money, etc... and head of the Union places.

Drag them out, burn their house down, melt all their gold and silvers, pawn everything they own and put all that money back into the govt. Then take them to the plant and shot each of them in back of their head one at a time. So everybody see what will happen to them if they try to screw around with the country like as all those bigwigs did.

Then take somebody who either have shown great ability in their field or promote somebody who have been part of the industry for age and know the in and out of the industry, but not quite the one to make decision and everything, put them in the place of all executives that have been killed off.

Hopefully that will force the new group of upper echlons to make a wise decision and be more careful with the money.

Yeah I'm dreaming... But oh well that would be so nice to see.

[malcolm]

hmmmm maybe if gm doesnt go bankrupt or they whip out another needless hummer or escalade or full size cab with six wheels instead of an economic and affordable car that takes competitive gas mileage as their foreign counterparts.

[Mr Karl]

well, they stopped making the safari work van........................they're too stupid to be in business

[VoltaireBlue]

I think they should let them go belly up. the cost of a bail out would just be passed on to taxpayers, which really isn't fair.

[Aza]

The water car was so close to realization when the oil companies supposedly purchased the blueprints and buried them.

The car that runs on compressed air is very much a reality, though it can't go over 45 mph.

The auto industry has had many chances to save its own skin. The decision to start producing hybrid and electric cars was a wise one, but made far too late in the game to have significant impact. Car companies chose to bow to the oil industry and continue to produce vehicles that relied on fossil fuels.

It would be poetic justice in a fashion to watch the auto industry sink beneath the waves of the evaporating financial oceans.

[Mainline_Iodine]

For all of those complaining about how much the worker within the auto industry are paid, got a question, do you know how to build your car?
Do you know how to fix your car when it breaks?

Exactly, technology has made it pretty hard for the average person to do their own maintenance on their car. That is why technicians get paid the wages they do, and the fact remains that we are still hourly employees not salaried. Technicians can make great money, but do industry labor codes, the tech that make really good money are also the ones who can do 80 hours of work in a 40 hour work week.

Despite the backlash against the oil companies and the auto industry, the internal combustion engine isn't going to die within the US. Car culture and all the car based sub cultures within the country aren't going to give it up. Too many people enjoy all the big, loud, gas burning constructs to ever want some small little hybrid.

[Aza]

Your argument has merit, Mainline. Mechanics won't be going out of business anytime soon, and I don't think anyone wishes death upon them or anything for helping to keep afloat a dying industry...

... but the industry is dying, and will continue to die unless it upgrades itself and incorporates new technology.

You see, I learned on my own how to repair each of my automobiles because it made more financial sense for me to know. It's not like mechanics don't have the same choice as I did; those that don't choose to learn how to build and repair hybrid and electric cars in addition to those run by combustion engines are simply shorting themselves valuable information that might help them to get a broader variety of work.

Besides, if the fast emergence and increasing dominance of the hybrid vehicle in America has been proof of anything, it's that the financial times are preparing to shove the internal combustion engine into obscurity. Its position is quite similar to that of cigarettes, especially as it has the same effect on the planet as cigarettes have on the human lung. Sooner or later, the country's majority will realize (or arguably has already realized) that they're paying an unnecessary amount of money to maintain a lifestyle that isn't even healthy... and they'll QUIT.

But what do I know; I still smoke.

[Mainline_Iodine]

The internal combustion engine might die out as far as a majority of daily driver vehicles, but it will not die out as far as the sub cultures are concerned, and those sub cultures represent a lot of money spent every year. Every weekend there are drag races going on in almost every state, off road competitions of one breed or another. Car clubs taking their very carefully and very expensive classic cars out to cruise the town. Then add the biker events and all the money that is spent for those every year and your starting to get the picture.
The internal combustion engine might be older technology but it isn't going to die in America. There is no way that anyone is going to convince everyone involved in these groups that the near silent hum of an electric could be in any way better then the roar of a V-Twin or big V8. As far as the competition side goes, until you or I could reasonably built a hybrid or electric car that can consistently keep up with or beat what is being run currently then there isn't going to be any change there.

Now I'm not saying that a change from fossil fuels to a renewable fuel source isn't possible and something that wouldn't be embraced. Bio diesel adds roughly 15 horse power in the same engine over regular diesel fuel. It also is a fuel that reduces the maintenance needed to keep the engine running in top condition. Ethanol was embraced by the racing community a long time ago. It might not see much use on the drag strip any more, but it gets a lot of uses on the circle and oval tracks across the country. The high dollar drag cars are burning gas from the pump, they are running higher octane, organic fuels.

There are just somethings that aren't going to change, and the existence of the internal combustion engine, especially within the US is one of them. I mean, who the hell would want a Harley-Davidson that runs on an electric engine?

[Morning Glory]

this is the 21st century, why the hell are we focusing on an old ass peice of junk technology from 100 years ago?

we should be investing in space ships.

that's like saying, "last year my company to charter people from New York to San Francisco by sailing around Cape Horn went belly up and now I need a bailout!"

they'd say, fuck you man. get with the times. why are you using an outdated and inefficient technology like that?

[Aza]

I get what you're saying, I really do... but is it not unrealistic to say that a way of life, no matter how popular, will never EVER die out when its very livelihood relies on an inarguably limited source of fuel? Even if we stop making the combustion engine today and switch entirely to the manufacturing of hybrids and electrics, our planet does not have enough oil, or the ability to produce enough oil, to fuel the vehicles remaining with private owners. Can gasoline be manufactured without relying on the oil industry? Can oil continue to be drilled without depleting our natural resources. The answer to both these questions being an obvious "No," how can you assume that the gas-powered engine will last through the eons?

[Morning Glory]

who the hell would want a Harley-Davidson that runs on an electric engine?

A person who doesn't think an imaginary, illogical concept of "cool" is fundamentally more important than something that is better in every other tangible way.

[VoltaireBlue]

this is the 21st century, why the hell are we focusing on an old ass peice of junk technology from 100 years ago?

we should be investing in space ships.

that's like saying, "last year my company to charter people from New York to San Francisco by sailing around Cape Horn went belly up and now I need a bailout!"

they'd say, fuck you man. get with the times. why are you using an outdated and inefficient technology like that?

that's what's up.
*applause*

[VoltaireBlue]

A person who doesn't think an imaginary, illogical concept of "cool" is fundamentally more important than something that is better in every other tangible way.

exactly!
fucking totally!

[Mainline_Iodine]

Again, I didn't say that the internal combustion engine wouldn't stop being the the power for the majority of daily drivers. It is easily possible for hybrids or electric cars to take over for the majority of daily drivers.
Again, bio fuels have been more than accepted into automotive culture already, the only issue being that its isn't available on every street corner like fossil fuel is. Hell the US is capable of producing enough grains every year to feed every citizen and power every internal combustion engine in the country.

MG, I think the issue you might be missing with the harley comment might lie in the area of "if I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand" territory. The sounds of a Harley-Davidson v-twin is part of what defines a harley. Harley's aren't meant to be small and quite. The motor company has tried selling small and quite scooters and the buyers don't want that. The buyers want a big, loud motorcycle.

[nathanmbailey]

If Ford, Chevy, and GM started making cars that competed performance wise with Honda, Toyota, and the other Asian manufacturers, people would buy them. The only thing GM ever had really going for it was the Jeep, which could litterally be beaten into the ground and would still run. Everything in the car industry is American, the big flashy cars that show off what you make or what you want people to think you make or pure work ethic. Most Ford (including Mazda) and Chevy cars are priced to compete with other manufacturers, but they're just now starting to compete in fuel economy. Why? Because we didn't need to.

There's a company in Colorado that is designing bio-fuel to replace gasoline, along with the people making bio-diesel to replace diesel, but realistically, it's still going to be awhile before those become readily available. What most people don't realize is production cost is still high for them, and their production hurts the environment because they're still burning coal and fuel to make the electricity to produce it and just keeping a steady supply of resources to make it is difficult with the weird ass weather everyone has been having. Most of the agricultural states can't grow anything 5 or 6 months out of the year.

I'm not going to get into unions, mostly because I know a lot of people who work in them at mills and factories. They do good for the people in the union, which is what it's there for, though I agree they take things too far sometimes. But the basic problem is most people aren't buying American made anything anymore. Metric bikes are even starting to outsell American ones, and I don't mean street bikes, I mean cruisers.

Here's an easy way to help the car companies get back on their feet. Tariff the fuck out of import vehicles while laying down higher standards for Ford, Chevy, GM and whoever else is American made. Force them to have better cars that are worth buying and give Americans a reason to by American. Granted you'll still have the people who can afford to pay more for the imports and the people who shell out cash for cheap cars to get one place to another (me), but the majority of people will buy American again.

The other major problem is they make too many cars. There should be no need to buy a new car every few years, which is all any company is looking for.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

I want my George Jetson space mobile already! I've been waiting ever since I was a kid and have been promised by numerous scientists through the years that it should have been out by now. WTF?!?!?

[Mr Karl]

jetson space mobile's, in this day and age? with all the assholes that exist now driving them?.......................the horror

[malcolm]

yeah i can dig that,death knight. ugh. i've been having to drive my mom around since she got back and i cannot tell you how many "snowbirds" there are out here right now that go like twenty miles below the speed limit. we had an old lady just veer right thruogh all THREE lanes of traffic to make a turn and she was gonig like 20 in a 45 no signal either. ugh.

and yeah, ill blame the snowbirds for alot fo that cus well, they dont know where they're going and they tend to drive slow so they can look around.

[Morning Glory]

MG, I think the issue you might be missing with the harley comment might lie in the area of "if I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand" territory.

I understand it. I just think it's stupid. I understand that people have different standards of value, but being that the negative effects of that perspective occur on all people regardless of whether they like it or not, it's one that I can't sympathize with. As opposed to say, someone who wants to ride a unicycle. equally stupid, but not objectionable on my part because it doesn't bother me.

I drive a car, I know i'm part of the problem, but I don't like it or want it. if someone was to give me a nuclear-powered vehicle, which was virtually pollution free and as far as we are concerned energy independent, and only bound by the limitations of mechanical wear and tear, i'd say sign me up in a heart beat.