What do you think of cyberpanhandling or cyber-begging?

[The Newswire]

We’ve all seen people online begging for PayPal donations or cash in the mail or for people to buy some product from them . . . not because the product is good or because they are working for a charity, but just because they claim to need money. Some say they need money for medical care or to pay a debt or to make rent or because their boyfriend dumped them or to move or to buy new furniture or purchase dog food for their pricey purebred or get school books or whatever.

Sometimes people probably are having a bad time and such things help, but it strikes me that more often the cyberpanhandlers tend to be people living in high end neighborhoods, rolling in luxury cars, and just suffering from a combination of poor self-esteem and/or poor financial planning. It is like they are saying, “please show you love me with some money.”



I used to really feel for sad tales I saw on the internet, especially if I had met the people in person at some point, but time after time, I discovered that cyber-beggars were often better off than the people they panhandled from. I admit that, now, when I see someone posting about how their life is so hard that everyone who reads their Twitter feed should PayPal them a dollar, it pretty much makes blood spurt …

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[Mr Karl]

cyberbegging....I never thought of that...................but I did find that standing on a corner, if you ask everyone for spare change you'l make about 8 to 10 bucks an hour average(early nineties) it's all about the numbers.........if you could manage to ask everyone in the world for just a penny you'll end up with a lot

[Ajax Knucklebones]

cyberbegging....I never thought of that...................but I did find that standing on a corner, if you ask everyone for spare change you'l make about 8 to 10 bucks an hour average(early nineties) it's all about the numbers.........if you could manage to ask everyone in the world for just a penny you'll end up with a lot

Mr. Karl, can you spare $100.00?

Actually I did have someone I knew on *******, but not real life, ask me for money once. Yeah...I said no.

[Raza]

Meh, not much. Kindof uninspired; I'd rather concentrate my efforts on gaining the things I need directly from countries/corporations/whomever is is control of them that shouldn't be than put them towards gaining money from individuals that'll just get back to suffering at work to earn more and perpetuate the problem.

I never feel too sorry for people that ask for money, either. You don't need money to survive in a western city. I don't think it shows love, either.

[mystoo]

Even when I was homeless I never asked people for money.

[Mr Karl]

Meh, not much. Kindof uninspired; I'd rather concentrate my efforts on gaining the things I need directly from countries/corporations/whomever is is control of them that shouldn't be than put them towards gaining money from individuals that'll just get back to suffering at work to earn more and perpetuate the problem.

I'm not sure what you meant there

[Mr Karl]

it's not really begging, it's more just like sales, except this way your customers are also provided with the extra free service of not being burdened by more shit they don't need

[TheDeathKnight]

I tend to look at most scams, swindles, and dishonest begging as being a tax on the stupid.

If you are stupid enough to fall for it, then by all means, give that person money...

The bottom line is that if you want to help people, you can track down people who really
do need help, or find charity organizations who really do help, and contribute your money
in a normal way. If you fall for some online scam asking for help or money, then you are
just foolish. There are a lot of scammers and manipulators out there looking for easy money.

I have also run into people who honestly do need help, but never do anything to fix their problems.
I have minimal tolerance for this as well.

[Amelia G]

I have also run into people who honestly do need help, but never do anything to fix their problems.
I have minimal tolerance for this as well.

I'm totally with you on this.

I think the people who put themselves in situations where they need help, but never do anything to fix their problems, are fundamentally putting their responsibilities onto other people i.e. where you would be a big meanie if you didn't pay their rent and cell phone and internet and groceries and eating out and new clothing bills for them because they set their life up to be hard.

[Brigeyboo]

Haha I make money off the internet, then again I don't "beg" for it. I demand it xD

[One Eyed Cat]

I never just give people money via the internet. I'll give to causes, animal rescue, or just commerce. The closest I came was a donation to someone who had lost friends in an accident. It was still technically a "cause", the person is reputable and the situation documented. It does tire me to see. Some folks feel entitled if they see you *ever* give money it seems.

[Amelia G]

I never just give people money via the internet. I'll give to causes, animal rescue, or just commerce. The closest I came was a donation to someone who had lost friends in an accident. It was still technically a "cause", the person is reputable and the situation documented. It does tire me to see. Some folks feel entitled if they see you *ever* give money it seems.

That last observation of yours is really dead-on and not something I really understood to be the case some years back. There are some people who, if you ever buy them a drink, think you owe them dinner and anything else they want for life. And there are some people who, if you ever buy anyone they know a drink, think you owe them at least a drink and probably dinner and anything else they want for life.

I like stuff like Habitat for Humanity and no-kill animal shelters and that sort of thing.

[Raza]

I'm not sure what you meant there

What I am saying is that although I have every respect for the art of living in a capitalist economy without resorting to working, I think panhandlers of most kinds miss the point when they shoot for money rather than the things they want, directly. So long as someone paid for it it's still consumption, and still contributes to the system.

I'm totally with you on this.

I think the people who put themselves in situations where they need help, but never do anything to fix their problems, are fundamentally putting their responsibilities onto other people i.e. where you would be a big meanie if you didn't pay their rent and cell phone and internet and groceries and eating out and new clothing bills for them because they set their life up to be hard.

Iunno, this seems a bit convenient. People's perspectives can be so different that what one is 'able' to do is very difficult to judge from the outside and based on practical circumstance. To people used to earning their living a certain course of action may seem obvious, but to someone who's never taken that route it may be as mystical as any other skill or craft looks to a layman.

Everything looks simple when you know it. Or maybe it turns out to be simple, and really is. But to act and find that out requires faith in the possibility of applying it to one's own life - a factor that may be influenced by a great many things, not nearly all of which make individuals into generally unworthy people.

On a psychological level, I think what you resent in these people is more their lack of appreciation for a culture and practice that you have made your own; this is often a real thing, since it's also what keeps people unmotivated to fix their problems as you did. They're easy to look down upon because they failed at something, and being more like you would allow them to succeed. But this is social instinct, and lacks insight in the underlying psychological factors that make people act the way they do.

[Mr Karl]

oh well, there's a sucker born every minute.......

[Ajax Knucklebones]

Iunno, this seems a bit convenient. People's perspectives can be so different that what one is 'able' to do is very difficult to judge from the outside and based on practical circumstance. To people used to earning their living a certain course of action may seem obvious, but to someone who's never taken that route it may be as mystical as any other skill or craft looks to a layman.

Everything looks simple when you know it. Or maybe it turns out to be simple, and really is. But to act and find that out requires faith in the possibility of applying it to one's own life - a factor that may be influenced by a great many things, not nearly all of which make individuals into generally unworthy people.

On a psychological level, I think what you resent in these people is more their lack of appreciation for a culture and practice that you have made your own; this is often a real thing, since it's also what keeps people unmotivated to fix their problems as you did. They're easy to look down upon because they failed at something, and being more like you would allow them to succeed. But this is social instinct, and lacks insight in the underlying psychological factors that make people act the way they do.

No. I think she resents that she works hard for her money and for some unknown reason, there are people out there, fully grown people, that want her to "rescue" them constantly with HER own money she's worked hard to get, while these same people don't do a fucking thing to change their situation. She's not talking about tribes in South Africa or other third world countries. She's talking about "piss and moaners". The "woe-is-me" people of the world that take, take, take from everybody and don't give a fucking thing back. Money isn't mystical to them at all. They know what it's for and know that they need it to survive and they also know what they need to do to get it, yet, SURPRISE, they have every excuse in the book why they just can't get some right when they need it most...Which usually is always. They not only hope someone will help them, but EXPECT that it's somebody's side job to do so. And when it's all over...And their rescuer has come though...What do these people do? Get right back into another fucking jam and once again, EXPECT someone to get them out of it. I know this first hand. My brother is one of them.

[Raza]

Well, not wanting to give them your money is obviously part of it too, but that wasn't the reason she quoted. It's probably the best reason out there, though.

The rest of what you're saying is just alienated disparagement - the expectation makes it even less charming, but doesn't qualitatively change much, nor apply to everyone. But yes, that's exactly what somebody thinking what I said would say they were thinking instead.

[One Eyed Cat]

That last observation of yours is really dead-on and not something I really understood to be the case some years back. There are some people who, if you ever buy them a drink, think you owe them dinner and anything else they want for life. And there are some people who, if you ever buy anyone they know a drink, think you owe them at least a drink and probably dinner and anything else they want for life.

I like stuff like Habitat for Humanity and no-kill animal shelters and that sort of thing.

Agree. I can't help but notice: There is some sense of entitlement in a lot of folks these days. I could run down a list: Free drinks, shows, passes, you name it. I try to maintain mutually beneficial relationships, but I have had more experiences with that mentality of late. I'll still buy folks drinks, but I'm more conservative and stop if a pattern emerges in any area involving paying or doing beyond what would be reciprocated.

[TheDeathKnight]

The main thing that boggles me, is the fact that these people don't have any shame in their behavior. I am proud to have made my way in life, and pay my own bills, and if I ever ended up in a situation where I needed help or charity, I would want to get out of that situation as soon as possible. Like Unemployment Insurance, for instance. Or welfare. When I've been unemployed, the last thing I want to do, is sit around on public assistance. I want to get a new job as soon as possible, even though I could simply sit around and get free government money. But I would not respect myself for living that way. I'd feel like I was not a very motivated or successful person. Same thing for people who live at home until they are 40, etc. Sure, it's super cheap, and you do it if you have to. But I'd be trying like hell to make enough to have my own place. Mainly because I'd feel embarrassed about still living at home past a certain age...

[Mr Karl]

what's wrong with employment insurance?..............you payed into it, and nothing wrong with pulling a few welfare checks either, your taxes contributed to the system..it's an alright little vacation, although not for the rest of your life, like a lot of people seem intent on doing

[Raza]

Iunno. I think the perception of wealth as a point of pride runs unhealthily deep in our culture. Being self-reliant is one thing, but if they've got you thinking you have to play on their terms for practical success to be 'respectable'...

Getting 'free government money' is all but impossible here, but I'd do it if I could. The government screws me over on all sorts of counts, and although I feel for some the people footing their bills I don't necessarily think that money in government hands is as valuable as it would be elsewhere. And I consider property right over space an absurdity, so I'm definitely not going to worry about whether my current habitat is registered under my name by law.

On the other hand, begging implies reliance on others. Any money they may give you exists by virtue of their actions, unlike the property of a government or landowner. That's not something I could easily make a claim on; even when I'm offering something in return I hate admitting that I have any stake in other people's feelings towards me.

[TheDeathKnight]

Yeah, I don't think you need to be wealthy to be "successful" in life. Not at all.
Being happy with your life = success.

But I take pride in achieving that happiness and success on my own.

For instance, some people marry a rich person, just to have financial stability.

But I'd rather be poor, and have a normal, happy relationship, than being
someone who fakes it, in order to have wealth. No matter how much money that was.

And I feel more self-reliant if I make money on my own, even if that was by doing
something illegal. Rather than by taking free government handouts or living off
other people's generosity and charity. I'd rather be totally poor and self-reliant,
than to feel like someone else is paying my bills because I can't do it on my own.
I always assumed that even if there were no jobs, no society, I'd still survive
on my own merits, by hunting, making my own shelter, etc. Not by begging
others to help me get by.

For instance, in LA, we have homeless people who beg for free money on
the street corners. But we also have poor people on the corners selling
flowers and other cheap items for a profit. I'd much rather "support" someone
trying to "earn" some money, than giving money to someone who is doing
nothing, just wanting a handout...

[Raza]

For instance, in LA, we have homeless people who beg for free money on
the street corners. But we also have poor people on the corners selling
flowers and other cheap items for a profit. I'd much rather "support" someone
trying to "earn" some money, than giving money to someone who is doing
nothing, just wanting a handout...

Srsly?

I always think this behaviour is perfectly absurd. There you have the people the absolute most screwed over by capitalism you can get while still living in a western country, still aiming pathetically for symbolic quid-pro-quo legitimacy. It's like Stockholm syndrome or someshit.

Iunno. I can see where you're coming from in taking an active role in your situation, but this isn't, really. What they're doing isn't practically useful to themselves or anyone; it's just a form of begging with inbuilt lip service to the rightfulness of economic inequality, applied because it flatters the people that are in a position to give them anything. It helps perpetuate the problem they're suffering from in the first place, and I don't much care for it.

[TheDeathKnight]

What they're doing isn't practically useful to themselves or anyone; it's just a form of begging with inbuilt lip service to the rightfulness of economic inequality, applied because it flatters the people that are in a position to give them anything. It helps perpetuate the problem they're suffering from in the first place, and I don't much care for it.

What is the problem they are suffering from?

I get the general idea that you are anti-capitalism.

I agree that it's not always the best system, but it's how nature works,
and it's how most of the world works. Life is cruel, and I don't see that
changing anytime soon. So the people who are willing to work hard will
get further ahead than people who just sit and ask people to help them.

I've said before I have no problem if people want to be homeless,
or live on a commune, or trade items, or beg for food or money.
Do whatever works best for you. But the world works a specific way.
Always has. And I don't see it changing in our lifetime.

So when I see someone begging for money, I have to
decide what I want to do. All I was trying to point out, is that
I am much more responsive to someone asking for food,
or asking for a job, or trying to sell me something or trade me something,
than someone who is just asking for a handout, and offering nothing in return.

The other big problem with LA, and other big cities, is that we have so many
homeless people, and poor people trying to find work, that you can't effectively
help everyone, without making yourself broke. If I lived in some remote town,
and one homeless person came through once a month, I am sure everyone
could chip in to get that person some work, get them some food, clothes, etc.
But when you have thousands and thousands, it's an overwhelming problem.
Not to mention the fact that half of them are addicted to drugs and alcohol,
and a large percentage are mentally ill. It makes helping a lot of those people
a waste of time and money. Which of course screws over the ones who
legitimately need and want help, and are trying to make their lives better.
But when you only cross paths briefly, it's hard to tell if someone is legit,
or full of crap. When I worked in areas with a lot of homeless people,
I would see them run a lot of scams on people. So it makes you jaded.

[Mr Karl]

capitalism is a fine system that works........the only problem with it is that the material used to represent capital is these days just a promise printed on paper....and now it's becoming just an electric pulse projected on a screen

[Raza]

What is the problem they are suffering from?

I get the general idea that you are anti-capitalism.

I agree that it's not always the best system, but it's how nature works,
and it's how most of the world works. Life is cruel, and I don't see that
changing anytime soon. So the people who are willing to work hard will
get further ahead than people who just sit and ask people to help them.

It's not how nature works. The foundations of capitalism - property law, contract law, etc - are all entirely artificial and abstract, and much of our intuitive grasp of them is nurture.

These things are the problem they are suffering from. A world with a powerful and coercive established order that claims to appoint 'ownership' over all the world's natural resources, and none of them are yours. A system that defines your options, punishes you for straying for them, and accepts only courses of action that benefit it while demanding valueable resources from you.

[Mr Karl]

Natural resources are there to be used, it doesn't matter what you do when there is a finite supply things will get ugly. Nature is to consume everything neccassery to survive by whatever means avaiable. Sure capitalism is a gameplan that allows for abuse but even a system of communal living is abuseable as well.

[Raza]

I'm talking less about oil, and more about things like space. Stuff that everybody needs and does not exist by virtue of human productivity, that has been divided across humanity with no regard for equal rights of any kind, and that people spend their entire lives working just to make use of.

[Ajax Knucklebones]

It's not how nature works. The foundations of capitalism - property law, contract law, etc - are all entirely artificial and abstract, and much of our intuitive grasp of them is nurture.

These things are the problem they are suffering from. A world with a powerful and coercive established order that claims to appoint 'ownership' over all the world's natural resources, and none of them are yours. A system that defines your options, punishes you for straying for them, and accepts only courses of action that benefit it while demanding valueable resources from you.

In a way, isn't that survival of the fittest though? Those who have, rule...Those who don't have to follow in line or suffer the consequences. Right now, money is THAT survival. You need it for everything to survive. If there was an apocalypse, it be a whole different set of rules, of course, where the basics of survival of the fittest will REALLY come into play...But still, there is ALWAYS some sort of set of rules.

[Mr Karl]

I'm talking less about oil, and more about things like space. Stuff that everybody needs and does not exist by virtue of human productivity, that has been divided across humanity with no regard for equal rights of any kind, and that people spend their entire lives working just to make use of.

you want space go to the woods, lots and lots of space out there, how long you'll last without the virtue of human productivity is up to you........space is not a resource, it's just space

[Ajax Knucklebones]

you want space go to the woods, lots and lots of space out there, how long you'll last without the virtue of human productivity is up to you........space is not a resource, it's just space

"Into the Wild"---Yeah, it usually doesn't end pretty when you just try to live off the land.

[Mr Karl]

oh, living off the land isn't the real problem.........it's the other people who come around, who want to leach off your resources that are the problem.......then you wake up one day and your just looking at a mess

[Raza]

In a way, isn't that survival of the fittest though? Those who have, rule...Those who don't have to follow in line or suffer the consequences. Right now, money is THAT survival. You need it for everything to survive. If there was an apocalypse, it be a whole different set of rules, of course, where the basics of survival of the fittest will REALLY come into play...But still, there is ALWAYS some sort of set of rules.

Mmm. Rules are different from mechanics. Rules are artificial, abstract, and supported on the premise of a worthy purpose. Survival of the fittest is a mechanic; objecting to it is absurd, all you can do is manipulate it in your (or everybody's) favor. Rules, however, rely on us to take effect - and therefore can and should be objected to when they aren't for the better.

you want space go to the woods, lots and lots of space out there, how long you'll last without the virtue of human productivity is up to you........space is not a resource, it's just space

Of course space is a resource; it is in limited supply and you need it for just about everything.

And I don't know where you live, but around here 'the woods' are pretty damn claimed. You can't even put a tent up to spend the night there without risking a fine, let alone live an autonomous lifestyle from the land.

[Mr Karl]

[QUOTE=Raza;218903
And I don't know where you live, but around here 'the woods' are pretty damn claimed. You can't even put a tent up to spend the night there without risking a fine, let alone live an autonomous lifestyle from the land.[/QUOTE]

well here you've gotta travel a few hundred clicks to get away from suburbia as well, but if you go far enough there's lots of space, same as over there

[TheDeathKnight]

Yeah, that's the weird thing when you live in the city. It seems incredibly crowded,
but if you drive just an hour out of the city, there are vast expanses of empty space.
Just go on Google maps, and look at the satellite views.

Anyhow, back to the topic of capitalism, I see it as survival of the fittest, which is the same way nature works.
Nature is just as cruel. The dominant predator kills, dismembers, and eats it's prey. It's not nice. Not at all.
Nature is brutal. Life is brutal. If the CEOs of large corporations are predators, and we are the prey,
then they are going to try to kill us and eat us. Maybe metaphorically, but that's what they are trying
to do. They want to eat, survive, and be happy, even if that means killing and eating other creatures.
Or fighting each other for the best prey, the best mates, etc.

Sure, maybe some antelope in Africa knows how the world works, and knows how unfair
life is. But does that make the world change? Does that stop the lions from trying to kill
their prey? Knowing life is unfair does not change anything. The only thing it does,
is gives you and advantage, so you don't play into the traps.

[Mr Karl]

however the true creation of capitol is made by saving not by consuming..........nature sort of saves but not really so capitalism and nature don't really have much in common, but then niether do humans and nature, well sort of, but not really.

[Raza]

well here you've gotta travel a few hundred clicks to get away from suburbia as well, but if you go far enough there's lots of space, same as over there

'Far enough' is a rather noncommittal base for an argument, even if its true. I wouldn't be able to find anything like that within the country.

'Sides, the point remains. Even space that isn't used by humans is claimed as somebody's property; you could just ignore that and go live there anyway, but it would be in defiance of capitalist law so any success booked that way would be further argument against it. And even if there were usable space left, people's and governments' claims on what is currently used would be baseless, since practically all of it is just inherited from people that took it with violence, and currently assigned to owners of far more than their fair share.

[TheDeathKnight]

And yes, that is not "fair", but that's how life works.
People used to walk onto some specific land, and claim it as their territory.
And they would use force to keep it. It's just that most of the land has
already been claimed by individuals, companies, or countries.

So you have to either pay them enough money for the land they claimed as their own,
or you have to take it by force. Or you can pay rent to those land-owners, or property owners, etc.

What I was saying about the space in the USA,
is that there is indeed land in remote areas, that is for sale for very little money.
Perhaps with no house on it, but if you want to buy some land in Alaska, or in the woods of Oregon,
Washington, etc, you can do so. And you can survive off the land, build your own house, etc.
People just generally don't have the skills or the motivation to do so.

[Raza]

It's not how life works, it's how people work. Refer back to my point about distinguishing rules and mechanics.

I'm not going to accept the status quo just because it is the status quo. Why would I live by a flawed system that does not benefit me? Why should I not object and break its rules whenever it suits me?

[TheDeathKnight]

You absolutely should reject the status quo.

My point is that most people don't realize there are any rules or structures
governing life, human behavior, etc. But there are. Some of the rules of life
are natural, some are artificial, some human created, but life does have a
structure, and people do behave in predictable ways.

Knowledge of that fact allows you to either circumnavigate the system,
to bypass the system, or if you so desire, to use it for your own gain
and advancement.

I look at Marilyn Manson as a great example of that.

He is a smart guy who created an image, music, and persona designed to
upset parents, and relate to young teenage angst, and thus sell a lot of
CDs, concert tickets, etc. But I don't see that as "selling out", because I
think he was honestly enjoying what he was doing, and enjoying his life.
But I guarantee that he was smart enough to know exactly what he
was doing. It wasn't some accident. He played the system perfectly.
But in doing so, he was able to live his life his way, and do whatever
he wanted to do, and have financial freedom, etc.

I am saying that music is not the only way to do that.
Ameila and Forrest do that as well to some extent.
They create fun adult content and make a living doing that.
They spend their days doing fun photo shoots, writing interesting articles, etc.
They are providing something society desires.
They aren't working at some office in a cubicle.

But it certainly fits into capitalism.

[Mr Karl]

It's not how life works, it's how people work. Refer back to my point about distinguishing rules and mechanics.

I'm not going to accept the status quo just because it is the status quo. Why would I live by a flawed system that does not benefit me? Why should I not object and break its rules whenever it suits me?

Life for people is all about work, we don't grow pelts to keep us warm, we don't have claws to help us hunt or defend ourselves, but we do have the ability to provide what we need to survive, all it takes is a bit of work. Unfortunately in this civilized time there really are no plagues or natural disasters or wars and stuff to keep a steady level on population so it gets a bit crowded and cash ass gas or grass is pretty much the way it is everywhere.

What do you mean by useable space? all space is useable, you've just got to bring the resources to it :p
Don't you live in the netherlands? Squattings legal there, here nobody cares as long as your clean, but noone's ever decided to legalize it so for sake of argument it's not