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    One Eyed Cat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Roma in Rome

    This persecution of Gypsies is now the shame of Europe

    Italy's campaign against the Roma has ominous echoes of its fascist past, and the silence of our leaders is deafening.



    At the heart of Europe, police have begun fingerprinting children on the basis of their race - with barely a murmur of protest from European governments. Last week, Silvio Berlusconi's new rightwing Italian administration announced plans to carry out a national registration of all the country's estimated 150,000 Gypsies - Roma and Sinti people - whether Italian-born or migrants. Interior minister and leading light of the xenophobic Northern League, Roberto Maroni, insisted that taking fingerprints of all Roma, including children, was needed to "prevent begging" and, if necessary, remove the children from their parents.


    The ethnic fingerprinting drive is part of a broader crackdown on Italy's three-and-a-half million migrants, most of them legal, carried out in an atmosphere of increasingly hysterical rhetoric about crime and security. But the reviled Roma, some of whose families have been in Italy since the middle ages, are taking the brunt of it. The aim is to close 700 Roma squatter camps and force their inhabitants out of the cities or the country. In the same week as Maroni was defending his racial registration plans in parliament, Italy's highest appeal court ruled that it was acceptable to discriminate against Roma on the grounds that "all Gypsies were thieves", rather than because of their "Gypsy nature".


    Official roundups and forced closures of Roma camps have been punctuated with vigilante attacks. In May, rumours of an abduction of a baby girl by a Gypsy woman in Naples triggered an orgy of racist violence against Roma camps by thugs wielding iron bars, who torched caravans and drove Gypsies from their slum homes in dozens of assaults, orchestrated by the local mafia, the Camorra. The response of Berlusconi's government to the firebombing and ethnic cleansing? "That is what happens when Gypsies steal babies," shrugged Maroni; while fellow minister and Northern League leader Umberto Bossi declared: "The people do what the political class isn't able to do."
    This, it should be recalled, is taking place in a state that under Benito Mussolini's fascist dictatorship played a willing part in the Holocaust, during which more than a million Gypsies are estimated to have died as "sub-humans" alongside the Nazi genocide perpetrated against the Jews. The first expulsions of Gypsies by Mussolini took place as early as 1926. Now the dictator's political heirs, the "post-fascist" National Alliance, are coalition partners in Berlusconi's government. In case anyone missed that, when the Alliance's Gianni Alemanno was elected mayor of Rome in April, his supporters gave the fascist salute chanting "Duce" (equivalent to the German "Führer") and Berlusconi enthused: "We are the new Falange" (the Spanish fascist party of General Franco).


    So you might have expected that Berlusconi would be taken to task for his vile treatment of the surviving Roma of Europe at the G8 summit in Japan this week by those fearless crusaders for human rights, George Bush and Gordon Brown. Far from it. Instead, Bush's spokesman issued a grovelling apology to the Italian prime minister on Tuesday for a US briefing describing his "good friend" Berlusconi as "one of the most controversial leaders of Italy ... hated by many".


    It has been left to others to speak out against this eruption of naked, officially sanctioned racism. Catholic human rights organisations have damned the fingerprinting of Gypsies as "evoking painful memories". The chief rabbi of Rome insisted it "must be stopped now". Roma groups have demonstrated, wearing the black triangles Gypsies were forced to wear in the Nazi concentration camps, and anti-racist campaigners in Rome this week began to bombard the interior ministry with their own fingerprints in protest against the treatment of the Gypsies. But, given that the European establishment has long turned a blind eye to anti-Roma discrimination and violence in the Czech Republic, Hungary and Romania, along with the celebration of SS units that took part in the Holocaust in the Baltic states, perhaps it's no surprise that they ignore the outrages now taking place in Italy.


    The rest of us cannot. There are particular reasons why Italy has been especially vulnerable in recent years to xenophobic and racist campaigns - even while crime is actually lower than it was in the 1990s (and below the level of Britain). The scale of recent immigration from the Balkans and Africa, an insecure and stagnant job market and the collapse of what was previously a powerful progressive and anti-fascist culture have all combined to create a particularly fearful and individualistic atmosphere, the leftwing Italian veteran Luciana Castellina argues.


    But the same phenomena can be seen to varying degrees all over Europe, where racist and Islamophobic parties are on the march: take the far right Swiss People's party, which on Tuesday succeeded in collecting enough signatures to force a referendum on banning minarets throughout the country. In Britain, as Peter Oborne's Channel 4 film on Islamophobia this week underlined, a mendacious media and political campaign has fed anti-Muslim hostility and violence since the 2005 London bombings - just as hostility to asylum seekers was whipped up in the 1990s. The social and democratic degeneration now reached by Italy can happen anywhere in the current climate.


    Italy has a further lesson for Britain and the rest of Europe. Berlusconi's election victory in April was built on the collapse of confidence in the centre-left government of Romano Prodi, which stuck to a narrow neoliberal programme and miserably failed to deliver to its own voters. Meanwhile, centre-left politicians such as Walter Veltroni, the former mayor of Rome, pandered to, rather than challenged, the xenophobic agenda of the rightwing parties - tearing down Gypsy camps himself and absurdly claiming last year that 75% of all crime was committed by Romanians (often confused with Roma in Italy).


    What was needed instead, as in the case of other countries experiencing large-scale immigration, was public action to provide decent housing and jobs, clamp down on exploitation of migrant workers and support economic development in Europe's neighbours. That opportunity has now been lost, as Italy is gripped by an ominous and retrograde spasm. The persecution of Gypsies is Italy's shame - and a warning to us all.

  2. #2
    One Eyed Cat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome


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    Head Wreck's Avatar Dai the Llama
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    okay. not that hits a nerve with me.

    my fathers side of the family has Roma and from what i have seen of other Roma camps that pass through they are not thieves, nor cause any disturbances, do everything above book and even leave the land cleaner than when the council had when it was loaned to them.

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    sickybuaaaaa's Avatar Mistress of asskickery
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Such things are quite horrible. There has been an uproar in the Slovenia against the gypsies too, mostly due to a number of them causing trouble. Such events have gotten some serious publicity, and due to that such xenophobic actions are starting to become nothing unusual, while a member of Slovenian nationalist party, famous for his statements against Croatia and gypsies even candidated for presidential position in this year's election. I can't say this surprises me at the least. Europe has always had trouble with gypsies. Such actions are becoming something ordinary in the state of fear we live in. But the fact that leaders of powerful nations not only do nothing to prevent xenophobia, but promote it is deeply concerning. The position of gypsies in Europe now is a bit similar to heavy-duty islamophobia in the States. I think one of the reasons why nobody does anything about it is that gypsies aren't accepted as normal citizens in the first place. The atmosphere here could be described as something like 'I don't really care, let the politicians handle it.'

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    Head Wreck's Avatar Dai the Llama
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by sickybuaaaaa
    'I don't really care, let the politicians handle it.'
    i never could understand that sentiment. politicians are only after all public servants and unless people communicate with politicians they cant really fullfill thier role

  6. #6
    One Eyed Cat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    The more things change ....

    I don't understand the animus. They are citizens. Countries need to accept them as such.

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    VoltaireBlue's Avatar just is
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    that's some really scary shit.

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    Head Wreck's Avatar Dai the Llama
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    indeed.

    i could unload a slew of quotes here dating from the end of the last war thats suitable but most know them

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    Morning Glory's Avatar Apathetic Voter
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    I wouldn't say that it's a general human characteristic to dislike and fear those who are different, but there are certainly some groups of people that do.

    Those who get along with people, no surprise, get along with people. The one's that don't want their way or the highway, so unfortunately the dominant and the prevailing culture is usually the xenophobic one.

    People who have different and "strange" cultures are considered an enemy to the norm and stigmatized. All repression always goes one way in the minds of the oppressors, so when people get pushed and they shove back , then it just further reinforces their opinion that they were right and everyone else is a threat to them.

    It's really sad that this sort of thing still goes on. We've made a big enough movement to force people to see the truth and respect it so that the idea of anti-antisemitism and black/white separation is frowned upon by most of the world today. This sort of thing is no different and it went on (and continues) just as the same as the former used to, but hasn't yet fully changed public perception for a lot of societies.

    I'd say that it's only a matter of time, but people are pretty resilient about hating each other, so it may be a long time and a lot of people are going to have it pretty bad in the meantime.

  10. #10
    One Eyed Cat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by VoltaireBlue
    that's some really scary shit.
    Amazed by how blatant they are being. The Highest Appeals Court rules roma can be discriminated against as "all roma are thieves". I'm not sure how they have any legal status there at this point.

    All Roma are Thieves
    All Thieves are Criminals
    All Criminals can be ____

    OEC

  11. #11
    One Eyed Cat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Glory
    I wouldn't say that it's a general human characteristic to dislike and fear those who are different, but there are certainly some groups of people that do.

    Those who get along with people, no surprise, get along with people. The one's that don't want their way or the highway, so unfortunately the dominant and the prevailing culture is usually the xenophobic one.

    People who have different and "strange" cultures are considered an enemy to the norm and stigmatized. All repression always goes one way in the minds of the oppressors, so when people get pushed and they shove back , then it just further reinforces their opinion that they were right and everyone else is a threat to them.

    It's really sad that this sort of thing still goes on. We've made a big enough movement to force people to see the truth and respect it so that the idea of anti-antisemitism and black/white separation is frowned upon by most of the world today. This sort of thing is no different and it went on (and continues) just as the same as the former used to, but hasn't yet fully changed public perception for a lot of societies.

    I'd say that it's only a matter of time, but people are pretty resilient about hating each other, so it may be a long time and a lot of people are going to have it pretty bad in the meantime.
    I think when things go south economically, a lot of people will start looking for scapegoats. I think it's more a defensive stance than anything.

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    Morning Glory's Avatar Apathetic Voter
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    that is very true, and seems to be the defining lesson of history, that has stood out as a chance for us to learn to foresee it and change it, to prevent such misery from happening, and has been ignored and forgotten again and again at each chance.

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    Morning Glory's Avatar Apathetic Voter
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    it makes me think of the movie Apocalypto. that is a very important movie, and I really wonder what Mel Gibson's intent was. It shows, rightfully so, the inevitable collapse of a conquering society and not necessarily inevitable, but condemnatory repeated holocaust that ensues. The ending shows the arrival of the next conquer civilization, who thought at the time, and is still thought of today, arriving to save and enlighten the savages. But they would share the same fate, and so will we if we think the same way.

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    Bikerpunk's Avatar Ill-intentioned bad apple
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    I am not going to comment on this, except to say that when they are around, I keep a close eye on my shit. Not all of them are thieves, but I once watched a store empied of $275,000 worth of computer gear in a well-orchestrated 50 seconds.

    The irony is, I saw them come in and grabbed my manager and said "lock the goddamn doors" and he gave me the P.C. we should not judge lecture, only to watch them, on cue, grab the most expensive item (which they'd spent four minutes approaching), run for the door and into a waiting van with its license plate missing, its engine running, and its back door open.

    This does NOT mean one should round them ALL up and put them in concentration camps, for Christ's sake, but I don't buy this "they're this innocent persecuted minority" bullshit either.

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    Morning Glory's Avatar Apathetic Voter
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    In other news, Karl Rove, former employee of the White House company was issued a summons to testify in court about the wrongdoings of his bosses. He refused to show up and invoked Executive Order protection. True Story.

    I don't know about you, but have you ever seen swat team kick down the door and drag someone out of their house? that's what happens to us when we get summoned to court.

    I think we are going after the wrong crooks. Forget the gypsies, start profiling for the thieves who wear suits and ties and carry briefcases.

    to paraphrase an old expression: If you steal a hundred dollars you are a criminal, if you steal a million you are a CEO, if you steal a billion you are the government.

  16. #16
    Bikerpunk's Avatar Ill-intentioned bad apple
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    No arguments there, glory.

  17. #17
    Morning Glory's Avatar Apathetic Voter
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    my point is that don't let a few bad apples keep you away from that sweet sweet apple sauce. (yes, that is a sexual euphemism.)

  18. #18
    One Eyed Cat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikerpunk
    I am not going to comment on this, except to say that when they are around, I keep a close eye on my shit. Not all of them are thieves, but I once watched a store empied of $275,000 worth of computer gear in a well-orchestrated 50 seconds.

    The irony is, I saw them come in and grabbed my manager and said "lock the goddamn doors" and he gave me the P.C. we should not judge lecture, only to watch them, on cue, grab the most expensive item (which they'd spent four minutes approaching), run for the door and into a waiting van with its license plate missing, its engine running, and its back door open.

    This does NOT mean one should round them ALL up and put them in concentration camps, for Christ's sake, but I don't buy this "they're this innocent persecuted minority" bullshit either.
    Under italian law, it is now quasi-legal to discriminate against an individual of roma extraction. To me, it's a matter of how the law is and should operate. People of roma extraction should have the same due process rights as anyone else. If they are guilty of theft, they should be prosecuted. If not, they should be left alone.

    OEC

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    One Eyed Cat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Glory
    In other news, Karl Rove, former employee of the White House company was issued a summons to testify in court about the wrongdoings of his bosses. He refused to show up and invoked Executive Order protection. True Story.

    I don't know about you, but have you ever seen swat team kick down the door and drag someone out of their house? that's what happens to us when we get summoned to court.

    I think we are going after the wrong crooks. Forget the gypsies, start profiling for the thieves who wear suits and ties and carry briefcases.

    to paraphrase an old expression: If you steal a hundred dollars you are a criminal, if you steal a million you are a CEO, if you steal a billion you are the government.
    Even they deserve due process. This whole profiling gig is a slippery slope into oblivion.

  20. #20
    One Eyed Cat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Glory
    my point is that don't let a few bad apples keep you away from that sweet sweet apple sauce. (yes, that is a sexual euphemism.)
    True. Although I should stress: I don't even bother making these a matter of personal morality. People will do as they do. People are free to associate or not associate for noble or ignoble reasons. It's more the legal sanction and apologia by officials that is unjust.

    OEC

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    Mr Karl's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Is anyone really suprised by this?

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    Morning Glory's Avatar Apathetic Voter
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    so you think that people should be allowed to discriminate in private institutions, but not public ones?

    I assume that you don't think that, but that kind of seems to be the logical reasoning of that argument.

  23. #23
    Bikerpunk's Avatar Ill-intentioned bad apple
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Glory
    my point is that don't let a few bad apples keep you away from that sweet sweet apple sauce. (yes, that is a sexual euphemism.)
    If I let someone rob the store I own of $250,000 I won't be in business very long.

    A better euphemism: not all apples are bad, but watch out for worms.

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    Morning Glory's Avatar Apathetic Voter
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    No, I like the way I said it better.

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    One Eyed Cat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Glory
    so you think that people should be allowed to discriminate in private institutions, but not public ones?

    I assume that you don't think that, but that kind of seems to be the logical reasoning of that argument.
    No. I just know that on a personal/informal level some will. Having it sanctioned by law is just despicable.

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    One Eyed Cat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Karl
    Is anyone really suprised by this?
    It's too redundant to surprise me. I am kind of amazed by how blatant it is. Would suck to be a PR guy for the Italian government, I don't know how you finesse the wording of the High Court of Appeals decision.

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    Head Wreck's Avatar Dai the Llama
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by One Eyed Cat
    Amazed by how blatant they are being. The Highest Appeals Court rules roma can be discriminated against as "all roma are thieves". I'm not sure how they have any legal status there at this point.

    All Roma are Thieves
    All Thieves are Criminals
    All Criminals can be ____

    OEC
    thats exactly how the dogma went last time around.

    yes society has some darker aspects, but its not specific to one person or race.

  28. #28
    Mr Karl's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by One Eyed Cat
    I am kind of amazed by how blatant it is.the .
    Blatently is the only way something like that can be done.

    Didn't the italian government just recently get themselves 3000 army troops to clean up crime?

  29. #29
    Mr Karl's Avatar Senior Member
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    Default Re: Roma in Rome

    Just so everyone knows, I wish this was a world where everyone was nice to each other, not because it's 'politicaly correct' but just because they want to be.

    I skeptical as to wether the human race will last that long

    nah it'll probably cancel itself out

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