Is faith sacred?

[Caligula]

I have a habit of stepping on toes when it comes to matters spiritual, not least because I am intensely sceptical that 'spirituality' itself is anything more than a verbal fudge used to facilitate control systems and prop up intellectually bankrupt ideologies. The consensus seems to be that you should 'respect' people's beliefs regardless of what they are. That makes sense in terms of finding a quiet life, but in my world respect is something earnt, not some kind of automatic right. And with the track record of religion, faith of any description should be regarded with deep suspicion.

What is often broadly termed 'the occult' has been a lifelong fascination of mine, but I subscribe to LaVey's dictum that the true path to enlightenment (if that's the correct term in a Satanist's case!) comes from doubt, not faith. Here in the UK they're trying to pass a law against 'incitement to religious hatred'. But what if your creed is one that believes in attacking religion as a cancer on human society? It strikes me that more and more people seem to regard adopting a belief as akin to choosing a flavour of ice cream or picking a sports team to support. Kind of worrying when it's supposed to be their vehicle to ultimate truth.

What do folks think? Anyone care to explain to me just what 'spirituality' is? Should a person's belief be automatically respected? Or challenged? Is doubt healthier than faith?

(I reckon I'm just about to be reminded just why religion and politics are taboo discussion topics in many arenas! Hey, what the hell...)

[CPRB]

caligula, the blood blodd member who has me re-reading roman history....well when it comes to religion or anything social...the UK is fucked you cna't have "black" coffee towns with black have had to change thier name and you had the mayor of London invite a religous nut who believes in beating women and is a racist...can't inviet a nea nazi but...the UK is the examle of what happens when PC bullshit goes to far...I feel sorry for any intelligent person in the UK. as for spirituality I am not religous, but I have self faith...faith in myself and the abilty to independently think and" doubt"....... as for what si wrong and right if you have faith in yourself you know what truly is and isn't your "gut"will tell you

[Nautilus]

A friend asked me today what religion and science had in common, and for some reason the answer that popped out of my mouth was "they're both practical, in everyday life." I used to be a hard-core skeptic myself, and thought of religion only in terms of it's fascinating social and psychological impacts (I still do this to some extent, I am a science nerd at heart), but I later found it's importance when it comes to death and purpose. What is the purpose of life? What is there after death? I used to think that there was no purpose, even reproduction was not a satisfactory purpose (because what is the purpose of reproduction and evolution if nothing matters in the larger scheme?) and that there was nothing after death because there is no evidence for these things. This is not a practical view in today's society as it will only make you apathetic, depressed, and fearful of death. So, just to get myself out of the funk, I turned to spirituality to answer these questions. It helped. I love science, but it can't do everything!

[TheDeathKnight]

Well, people tend to disagree, about issues that are important to them.
And if you can feel the right to challenge someone else's beliefs, then it
is just as right for them to challenge yours. Which means that they can
come knocking at your door to talk to you about religion. I would rather
they stay away, and I can do what I want, and they can do what they
want, and neither of us is allowed to fuck with each other, and cause
conflict.

Even if you think religion is abbhorent, and you want to wipe it off
the face of the earth, that is the same way hardcore religious people
feel about athiests, hedonists, etc...

I figure that if I want their respect, I have to respect them back.

If they want to protest against abortion, then I have to let them,
if I ever want to protest against the catholic church's birth control doctrines, etc...

[TheDeathKnight]

As far as the comment:

"what is the purpose of reproduction and evolution if nothing matters in the larger scheme?"

My answer would be:

Nature has a cycle. Animals are born, they reproduce, they evolve, they die.
The consume resources, and they create resources. Nature has a good balance.
Life has a balance. Things seem to work. Why does there need to be a purpose?

Do you see humans as part of the natural cycle, by us being born, living, eating, reproducing, dying, etc? Are you willing to see us as part of that cycle, or do you see us as somehow different?

If not, and you accept that we are part of nature, then what is the purpose of the life of a bee? It is born, raised, gathers pollen, raises a new generation, and then it dies. this cycle of bees has been going on for millions of generations of bees. Each one being born, living, reproducing, working, and dying... Is there a grander purpose? Maybe there is. But what does that have to do with the bee? Maybe it is playing a role in nature. Maybe it is part of some master plan. But to the individual bee, is there a purpose? Are they supposed to learn something? Gain better Karma? I'm not against the idea that there *could* ba a grand purpose to life. But I still balk at the idea that humans think they are so special, and so important. That each human life, and death, has a big purpose or meaning. Why can't people just live, and die, just like every other species of creature? I think we do. Is there a reason? A purpose to all life? Maybe.

Is it depressing to think that we are just animals, part of nature, part of life, living, dying, generation after generation? Sure it is. I won't deny it. And yet you also have to realize, that unlike other animals, that struggle just to eat, and to live, a lot of us humans have the wonderful opportunity, to actually enjoy our lives. To create. To explore. You happen to be alive at this moment in time. You are not dead. You are not nothingness. You have a mind, and a body, and you can enjoy this world, and you can enjoy the fact that you are alive. That's not depressing. That's AWESOME! It's the dying part that bums people out. But what are you going to do? It's part of life. Part of the cycle. Enjoy life while you have it, and don't dwell on death so much...

[Caligula]

CPRB I'm with you on the value of doubt. Similarly, Nautilus you're right that if religion can help you live your life then faith could be described as pragmatic rather than superstitious. There's also a good argument for tolerance, and it's well put here by Deathknight. The trouble is with religion we're dealing with a form of belief that's immune to reasoned debate.

Let me put it like this. The Inquisition are now widely regarded as 'bad men'. But if you believe, as they did, that heresy is a cancer that can endanger the spiritual welfare of a whole community, or even nation, and that the only way to save the soul of the individual heretic was to torture a confession from them and then cleanse their body with fire, then it would be an act of wickedness not to torture and burn heretics. By burning such people you were rescuing them from an eternity in the lake of fire. The only true crime of the Inquisition was one of belief.

Or put it another way, anyone who believes in an afterlife should not be allowed anywhere near weapons of mass destruction. Don't you find the idea that somebody who's a burn again Christian - hence believing in the desirability of the apocalypse - is sitting in the Whitehouse just a little worrying?..

[Drakken]

Faith I dont think is a religious idea only.
Example I have 'faith' that people will keep their word. It has nothing to do with a God, I believe in the aggreement only. Just as you can believe in yourself. 'Faith' becomes ones confidence.

[Jasperino]

Oh crap here we go. I hate this debate. What it comes down to really is that everyone is conviced that what they believe is right and if you don't believe it too you're an asshole. Whether you like it or not, disbelief is in itself is a belief system. Need I quote Rush? "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." The christians preach love but they hate satanists, satanists preach acceptance but never cease to mock and ridicule christianity, then there's all the other religions, cults etc... that have people dinking poison kool-aid and stock piling weapons. Here's the bottom line, the world is fucked. Find what you believe and believe it. If you're wrong you'll find out eventually, if you're right, you can give everyone else the finger when you're lounging in paradise, becoming nothing, or reincarnating. I happen to believe in Heaven and Hell and my destination is heaven but it has nothing to do with how good I am or how many people's throats I shove my opinions down. I expect my beliefs to be respected in the same way I respect others' and really don't care who agrees with me. I'm quite out of breath now...

[TheDeathKnight]

See, that's totally cool.

I wish more religious people had that attitude.
In fact, I wish they felt like it was their little secret...
That only they knew the way into heaven, and they don't want it to be crowded.



Someone told me once that the Jehovah's Witnesses have that concept.
That only 24,000 people or so will get into heaven.
And that only the best, and most devoted will make it.
So it kind of makes it like a pyramid scheme, with their converting people.
The more they convert people, the better chance they have, but the more
people they convert, the more competition they have... Pretty funny actually...

[Caligula]

Oh crap here we go. I hate this debate. What it comes down to really is that everyone is conviced that what they believe is right and if you don't believe it too you're an asshole. Whether you like it or not, disbelief is in itself is a belief system. Need I quote Rush? "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." The christians preach love but they hate satanists, satanists preach acceptance but never cease to mock and ridicule christianity, then there's all the other religions, cults etc... that have people dinking poison kool-aid and stock piling weapons. Here's the bottom line, the world is fucked. Find what you believe and believe it. If you're wrong you'll find out eventually, if you're right, you can give everyone else the finger when you're lounging in paradise, becoming nothing, or reincarnating. I happen to believe in Heaven and Hell and my destination is heaven but it has nothing to do with how good I am or how many people's throats I shove my opinions down. I expect my beliefs to be respected in the same way I respect others' and really don't care who agrees with me. I'm quite out of breath now...

I'll take that as a 'yes' then.

You can call disbelief a belief system if you like, but nobody ever planted a bomb or flew a plane into a building because they were an athiest. And face it, after milennia of being tortured and burnt by sundry cults and creeds, I'd say they had better reason to feel pissed off than most.

Incidentally, the real howler about the Jehovah's Witnesses is that they've predicted the end of the world I think it's four times now. The word comes down that Armageddon's imminent, and all of the faithful sell their houses, put their affairs in order, and prepare to kiss their asses goodbye and sail through them pearly gates. The appointed day arrives, and... Nothing. Zilch. Nada. Talk about anticlimax. You'd think they'd all demand some kind of explanation at the very least. Nope. They just go right back to praying and proselytising and waiting for the next update on the coming apocalypse.

[Jasperino]

It's 144,000. The belief is based on the bible where it says that God or Jehova will have 144,000 witnesses on the earth at the end of the world, thus the name, "Jehova's Witessess."
I'm a cesspool of useless knowledge

[TheDeathKnight]

Cool! Thanks!

[CPRB]

I have faith that one day I will figire out my typing

[YouMakeMeWanna000]

a person's belief should be left alone. if someone wants to be a christian, let them be, but you expect the same form them. but some of the bloody cunts dont respect that and feel as if they have the right to critisize other religions other than theirs...

[Nautilus]

I'm not against the idea that there *could* ba a grand purpose to life. But I still balk at the idea that humans think they are so special, and so important. That each human life, and death, has a big purpose or meaning. Why can't people just live, and die, just like every other species of creature? I think we do. Is there a reason? A purpose to all life? Maybe.

I agree, actually. Why are humans so special? We're not, we just wanna be. Maybe we don't have a grander purpose than evolution, but what about spiritual evolution? You seem like a really intelligent person, could I have your thoughts on that?