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this is true..no one knows for sure..Originally Posted by Ajax Knucklebones
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in a rowboat
Re: How we all became.
this is true..no one knows for sure..
Re: How we all became.
I've had more than one near death experience does that count?
God fearing atheist
Re: How we all became.
Not totally...Only because science has done many experiments and studies on near death experiences and for everything people have said to go through, like seeing a lit-up tunnel, feeling euphoric, and even seeing dead members of their family, science has explained it all.
Take from that whatever you believe, but there was this one show on it I watched and you know how alot of people that go through near death experiences say that they were floating over there bodies? Well, this one doctor who dealt with alot of patients that go through near death experiences while in the surgery room, put a flashing message board that read, "I like ice cream" laying face up and a high cabinet. This way only someone hovering high enough could see it. He kept it there for two years and any patient during that time who had one of these "out of body" experiences were asked, what the message board said. Not one person could answer the question.
Re: How we all became.
I've had out of body experiences ... some call that astral projection.
No tunnels.
But really strange sensations.
God fearing atheist
Re: How we all became.
****But really strange sensations
Explain?
Senior Member
Re: How we all became.
see? ...................it's not possible to understand the mechanical processes of how until the examination of 'why' is thouroughly exhausted
yep......down that road lies madness
Re: How we all became.
I felt my spirit (awareness) slipping out of my body ... I felt wrapped in peace... very warm (not hell...hahaha) but my body was getting really cold...
I knew what my daughter was doing out in the hallway... drawing/coloring a picture for her brother I'd just given birth to...
My husband, was crying very hard, and was still on the cane ... after the injury...
and the nurses and doctors were freaking out trying to get the bleeding to stop.
(my husband said that the blood was pouring out of me, as if being poured out of a cup)
I passed out but I was still... conscious.. I could see everyone and I could still hear my son crying, and I was over taken with the urge to stay.
I prayed in my mind or whatever....asking God if I could stay with my family, even though the peace that overtook me was unlike anything I'd ever experienced ... and I didnt want to leave that feeling.... I wanted to stay with my family... the peace began shrinking away, and INSTANTLY the bleeding stopped... there was NO explanation WHY... it just did. The doctors and nurses, were SO amazed, and were actually astonished at the turn of events.
If it was sensations ONLY related to blood loss, wouldnt I have continued to feel it until the transfusion?
I had to stay at the hospital for almost a week. To get my strength back.
But the experience sticks with me... I dont know why I've decided to share it... I'm usually very private about it...
I have 2 accounts of near death experiences kinda like that... but they're going to stay with me...
Re: How we all became.
I will say that I almost died March 20th/ish '07
AK... get this, at the Tahitian Inn Motel.
God fearing atheist
Re: How we all became.
Not to say what you felt wasn't spiritual or not religious, but the shows I've seen say that as the body starts to shut down, endorphins start running wild in your system to ease the pain of the "shut down". Because so many endorphins are being released, people feel euphoric. Once your body stopped shutting down because the bleeding stopped, the body starts going back to "living" status and the endorphins stop being produced, thereby the "peace" you felt shrinks away. Even know you didn't get the transfusion yet, just the stoppage of the bleeding could send messages to your brain that at the present moment you weren't in "dying" mode anymore. At least that's how the people that study this stuff would explain it. Could it be something else? Something from a higher power? Sure! But like SD said, who knows for sure.
God fearing atheist
Re: How we all became.
Is that in Ft Myers Beach? You need to stay away from the beach. Bad things seem to happen to you there.
Re: How we all became.
That's during the whole red tide scare.
Some of the best experiences of my life happened there to... so how does that figure in?
The hotel is on the left on the way there, HAVE you ever ate at Miceli's?
EAT THERE.. its INCREDIBLE!!! and affordable.
Its beside the Tahitian.
Across from the Duncan Donuts... and some other restaurant um, Butlers maybe, before the bridge
Apathetic Voter
Re: How we all became.
I heard a scientist put it into an interesting perspective.
He talked about the Greek astronomer Ptolemy and how he was one of the leading people to argue for the theory that the universe (the solar system) revolved around the Earth. Today we know it's not true, and it seems silly, but it was a really big deal because until then people believed that everything was just fixed in place the way it was, and the idea of a rotating solar system was revolutionary in thinking.
He used calculus to show that the planets and the stars rotated, but he didn't know why. so he said, If there is all this space, it must be that the Gods don't live on mt. Olympus, but they live up in the heavens and they make the planet's rotate.
Later on of course Issac Newton discovered why that was, it's the law of gravity. Someone asked him why the planets aren't round. they are uneven sphere's. He didn't know why, so he invented a new form of calculus and did the formulas and discovered that it was because Jupiter and the other planet's gravity fields were all acting on each other pulling them in different directions. Based on his calculations he predicted that the gravity fields would cause the planets to shift out of their solar orbit and go flying out into space.
Once again he was at a stop, and he said, there must be some higher force in the galaxy at work here keeping it all together, it must be the work of God.
about a hundred or so years later another astronomer, I forget his name, invented yet again another new form of calculus and it showed that all the gravity fields of the different planets tugging offer equal opposing forces that cancel each other out, so it doesn't effect the solar orbit.
the point is that people always get to a point where they don't know the answer anymore and so they attribute it to God, to a higher source of power and claim that it is beyond humanity's ability to know.
He says that not only is that short sighted, but it's extremely arrogant to assume that the people of this time know everything there is to know, and we know more than anyone else ever has or ever will.
He says, you can believe in religion all that you want to, thinking about morality and the afterlife and all that, but it has no place in scientific study. I'm a scientist, I do experiments to try and learn new information, I can't accept an idea that means I should stop trying to do that and stop thinking about things.
Re: How we all became.
What is crazy, I wasnt afraid to die... I wasnt scared at all...
Apathetic Voter
Re: How we all became.
Ok, so you need to know the theory E= MC2 which describes the relationship between "objects".
Energy equals Mass times Acceleration (the speed of light) squared. yeah, it has a lot of kinda complicated purposes but the point is that everything is moving around at different speeds.
The whole universe is moving in all directions, but it's also getting small at the same time, which doesn't really make that much sense. That's the thing, reality doesn't seem to make very much sense at all, but that's the way it works. I'll talk about that more later on.
So anyway, before the Big Bang the universe was at what we call absolute zero, which is the slowest possible speed, it's just not moving at all. There's no differentiation of matter, there's not even anything that resembles matter, it would appear be what we would define as nothing. It also seems most likely that it would be inconceivably small. There would also be no time.
it would either seem like forever, or instantaneous. we can't really know that.
The thing to understand is that for some reason space divides exponentially. that is the smaller you get, the more noticeable the difference (the distance) between things appears. compare the way your house looks to you and how it would look to an ant. even though the universe seems very tiny to us, at that scale it seems near infinitely huge, which means that it has near infinite possibilities.
all it would take would be for one change of state, like a spark igniting gasoline inside an engine, to cause a chain reaction sending all matter out in all directions from each other, causing the universe to expand. that's why it's called the big bang.
The real mystery is what caused it to happen in the first place. We don't know. If I had to speculate I would say that there really isn't an absolute zero, that the universe was filled with equal opposing forces that balanced each other out, like the planets in our solar system. So that it only appears to be still, like the earth seems to be still from our POV, even though it's actually traveling what we would call very fast (around 400 miles or so per hour on it's axis).
the most likely scenario would seem to be that a particle entered out universe from another universe, unbalanced the equation, and kicked off the whole thing.
That's another mind bender that I won't get into right now.
the other big question is how you go from unified matter to chaos, back to unified matter in the forms that we see today. it doesn't make sense that you'd drop a glass and it would shatter, and then put itself back together, except now instead of a glass, you have a dozen oranges. But apparently that is the way that it works.
The biggest problem is that our whole understanding of reality is based on the idea of cause and effect. Too bad we've found out that the oasis in the desert isn't really there, and effects just sometimes happen to seem to be caused by things when they really aren't.
What we don't know we call God. But God can still teach us a thing or two. It would seem impossible, yet we can still perceive of the concept, which means it's not impossible, that information had to come from somewhere to form the image, it's just incomplete information forming an incomplete image that we can't understand.
Yet.
We don't need to go very far to see a fully working model of how the big bang works, we just have to look outside the window.
everything that I have said about the way that the universe works is exactly mirrored in small scale during the life time of a star.
Re: How we all became.
I read everything you wrote.the way that the universe works is exactly mirrored in small scale during the life time of a star.
I like how you brought up that point.
One of the most fascinating things about creation is how patterns repeat. Like, from the sky, rivers look like veins, and the way cells mimic planets around the sun.... etc etc...
I'm absolutely FASCINATED with the repeating paterns...
Senior Member
Re: How we all became.
# There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of animals Chuck Norris allows to live.
In the beginning there was nothing...then Chuck Norris Roundhouse kicked that nothing in the face and said "Get a job". That is the story of the universe.
A guy who makes girls
Re: How we all became.
and most people don't know why they're there (other than blaming God for attending art classes) - it's easier to make something follow a pattern than make it seem random, as "random" is impossible to code into DNA. You can vary things a little here and there, but if you want to build a clover, you just need to code for one leaf, then say "repeat x 3". Making each leaf different would need three complete sets of instructions, and so use up more genes. Efficiency is everything.
Which is also, of course, why 99% of animals are axially symmetrical, and why men have nipples. It's easier to leave them there and turn then off, than have to describe what to put in their place.
Fractals follow from the same logic - repeating patterns in a hierarchy instead of defining new rules for "big branch", "little branch" and "twig" is more efficient.
just is
Re: How we all became.
true. and veeeeeeeeeeeeeery interesting. food for thought that will keep you busy for hours.
in a rowboat
Re: How we all became.
foshizzle..# There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of animals Chuck Norris allows to live.
In the beginning there was nothing...then Chuck Norris Roundhouse kicked that nothing in the face and said "Get a job". That is the story of the universe.
Senior Member
Re: How we all became.
>_>
Cute naked alt models got together and used their magical powers and made us all into being... 'bout 5 minutes ago.
Re: How we all became.
Thats why we all ended up here...
how about the world began with Forrest and Amelia!
in a rowboat
Re: How we all became.
a click instead of a bang?..::ponders:
Re: How we all became.
hahahahah
that was a good one SD
in a rowboat
Re: How we all became.
that's what she said..
Senior Member
Re: How we all became.
Big Bang Theory, Theory of Creation, Evolution they are all one in the same, they all go hand in hand with each other. Why fight with each other when these theory could work together to help mind kind cope with this issue a little better.
To me God is the spark which as the chain reactions that cause the Big bang, and god was that spark of life that drives Evolution.
Eat me, I'm nutritious.
Re: How we all became.
Not to put words in someone else's mouth (pretend it's not exactly what I'm doing here...), but I think what he meant to imply wasn't that monotheism is stupid because it doesn't explain anything, (Facing facts, "singularity exploded" doesn't either.) but rather pointing out the futility in an explanation that only creates more questions. (Facing facts again, the point itself is futile.)
And here I was thinking you were leading up to the statement, 'Calculus created the universe.' XP
Creepy thought, actually. <.<;
Anyway -Ahem-
Here's my two standardized monetary units:
The universe 'originally' (in parenthesis for the irony of this choice of words, to be realised later in the explanation.) existed in a point of singularity. All matter and energy existing in a single, infinitely small, area of space. (As scientific research suggests.) Because of the nature of this existence, the universe was subjected to the rules of quantum physics, rather than the physics we know. As a result of this, it was able to exist in superposition. (Which may, or may not be possible on a macroscopic level, depending on the physical condition of a cat that's never known physical existence.)
But, being all-there-is, obviously there was nothing else around to observe it and hence collapse it's wave function, right?
Well, yes. That's right. In actual fact, we're collapsing it's wave function every moment we exist.
I grant you, if you don't believe in cyclic time theory (The beginning is the end is the beginning) this is probably more ridiculous sounding than the obvious, "Chuck Norris did it." (Although with a bit of intensive-thinking, you'll realise that even without cyclic time theory, it's still possible.)
For the record, yes, I do believe in cyclic time. And if what I'm saying is going way above your head, then you probably don't. Fortunately, since I don't care for pushing my beliefs on others, I don't mind at all if you don't understand.
Just don't ask me to explain it better. I'm -horrible- with words. >__<;;
Also... somewhat relative to this topic. There is a short story called 'The Last Question' by Isaac Asimov, kinda about how the universe was created, kinda more about how it will end... it's hard to explain. Anyway, if you look around I'm sure you can find a (or several) copy of it online. It's an absolutely -ensnaring- read. Look it up.
Senior Member
Re: How we all became.
You mean the one where they keep asking successive versions of an AI that get bigger and bigger until it's at the end of the universe "How do we keep suns going?"
And at the end, the AI goes all "I AM THE ALMIGHTY" on the universe?
Apathetic Voter
Re: How we all became.
the problem is that religion has been supressing science and alternative thinking for 2,000 years.
to put it bluntly it's a fucking cop out for Christians to say (in regards to modern scientific theory) "yeah, that's what we were saying all along, so it just proves that the Bible is right."
the bible is not compatable with science. the only way that it is is to ignore what the Bible says, and then to claim that it says something different.
The Bible says the Earth (doesn't make mention of the rest of the universe) was created in 6 days. primitive people have always understood a day to mean one rotation of the earth (even though they didn't understand the phenominon). So to say that a "day" to God really was equal to 2.4 billion years, doesn't make any sense. why would God not say that in the bible? furthermore why wouldn't He tell us that the earth rotated on it's axis, around a sun, in a revolving galaxy in an expanding universe? Why would He use a term that was understood by people of the time to mean something totally different than thier understanding?
Because the Bible doesn't mean 14 and a half billion years, it means 6 days.
If you believe in the Bible, or any other monotheistic scripture, if you believe that it's the true word of God handed down to the human race, then you can't believe in scientific teachings.
If you believe in science, then you can't believe in holy books. The two are contradictions of each other.
and if you don't believe in religion, why do you believe in God? because there's things out there that can't be explained by science? So belief in God is born out of ignorance, from that POV.
If you want to use the term God in a way that is not supernatural, that's fine, but it's silly to pretend that it is the meaning implied by religion and that it supports scientific thinking. I'll say it again, the two are not compatable.
Senior Member
Re: How we all became.
The Catholic Church stated that women have no souls like 200 years ago, and that has never officalliy been changed
Re: How we all became.
ACTUALLY, in the beginning of Genesis, it says that, when God was getting ready to create Adam and Eve, it says that he "REPLENISHED" the earth.... meaning it was already there, and it once contained life... hence the age of the dinosaurs.... and all that... it doesnt say that HE created everything, exactly, but replenished. There's a difference. It doesnt include how long it took to make the universe.
So it actually isnt as cut and dry as you'd like to suggest.
I appreciate your points of view though.
Re: How we all became.
And even though I used masculine pronouns, it does say the spirit of God moved over the earth before it was replenished, in the original texts, it refers to the spirit of God being feminine....
YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO DISAGREE... whatever I'm just bringing in what I've learned.....
I like to think this is a common point of discernment, where we get mother earth, or mother of earth.
I dont see why people want remove God and Science... I personally see how they're hand in hand, but that's just me.
Religion is man made... it doesnt necessarily define who God really is... but is rather mankind's way of trying to reach him, so it is possible to believe in God and not in religion.
Science is also man made, and is neither complete in itself...
Religion AND science is man's attempt to unravel the mystery
Could it be man's fault that science and religion doesnt match up? Could it be the incomplete, and imperfect state of man that births the confusion by attempting to define what cannot be defined?
Apathetic Voter
Re: How we all became.
well, with all due respect, how do you know what it says?
I don't know what it is says, no one knows what it says since no one has ever seen the original, if it even exists. In fact, for whatever reason, whether it was never written down, lost or not there, the earliest hebrew account is actually from a later date than the greek record.
I'm just going by what the major branches of the religion teach.
Re: How we all became.
I DO understand your skepticism...
It would be easy to get into a futile argument... but you've got what you know and what you've learned... I'm not trying to change you.
I know what I know because of what I've learned... and you're not going to change me, even though I do see where you're coming from, I see the two concepts as joined and not separate...
There will always be naysayers... I can throw up to you where I get what I'm talking about, and you've got someone who says its not true or accurate...
it all comes down to, you state what you feel, I'll state what I feel, and people can glean from our words and form their own opinions.
...simple.
Thank you for taking the time to share what's on your mind
Apathetic Voter
Re: How we all became.
It was Voltaire (the old dead guy) that said, 'If God didn't exist, it would be neccesary to invent him."
whether it would be neccesary or not, he's still correct that humans did invent Him, or more precisily, that all of our understanding of the universe is shaped by our own incomplete perceptions.
religion and science are the same thing to the people that believe in them, and it's only because of what you might call advancement that has brought conflicting beliefs together so that we now have a dispute about them. I don't have any doubt that if humanity survives much further into the future, that one day people will look back on our understanding of the universe with the same condescention we have towards the other "simple notions of primitive" people's of the past.
Senior Member
Re: How we all became.
Perhaps, or perhaps they'll still be using the theories that use now, like how we use Einsteins, and Newtons theories too, even after 200-300 years.
Re: How we all became.
Time will tell.
in a rowboat
Re: How we all became.
eh?
i blame it on canadians.
Eat me, I'm nutritious.
Re: How we all became.
Yes, that's a simple way of saying it, and ruining the plot for those who haven't read it. XP
Senior Member
Re: How we all became.
I do that alot. ;-)
Re: How we all became.
Hey Dr Z you have a PM
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