Rock Photography

[Amelia G]

Just came across a site where people were talking about how some of Forrest's and my photos of Gen from the Genitorturers at http://www.blueblood.net/bb_97.html were some of the best they had ever seen done of her. We originally were shooting them partly for magazine cover, only a certain company with the initials HT was cranky about it and didn't want to credit who the hottie was on the cover. It didn't help that the magazine's designer photoshopped Jesus suffering on a cross in the background of our photo. It also didn't help that the publisher sent the cover to said christian company for approval at Eastertime.

Over the years, I've shot members of bigger bands (Red Hot Chili Peppers, Korn, Manson, etc.) but Blue Blood was the first US magazine to put The Genitorturers on the cover. And we had seen them a lot over the years and I liked them as people and I liked their band and I liked their shows. So I felt invested in that relationship and that shoot. Not that Gen was horrible or anything, but I really went to bat for her and it ended up being a real problem that I insisted she be properly credited with our photo. She was pretty upset at the time and I promised her that her photo would not appear without her name and her band's name. Most photographers would have just let the magazine do whatever it wanted and later said they had no control over what the magazine did, no matter what they promised. My word means something though. The photos from that shoot have only appeared where we could credit her, so I kept my word, but it took a lot out of me. If someone went to bat for me like that, I would probably send them a fruit basket or a rare Blue Blood back issue or something.

The whole thing was kind of a nail in the coffin of doing rock photography for me. I was initially thinking of doing another one of the Blue Blood girls for the cover of this particular publication, but, when I heard Gen was coming through LA, I thought it would be fun to shoot her again and get her on the cover instead. Forrest and I had already shot Szandora, Yolanda, Batty, and Fetus de Milo for the cover of this mag. Yes, they photoshopped out Yolanda and Fetus' facial piercings to please HT, but shooting those covers was a lot more fun.

Seeing people I don't know on the net getting excited about the shots Forrest and I did of Gen made me think about some of what I like creatively about rock photography. Mostly we enjoy shooting people with intense personalities and the rock world has a lot of those.

I'm feeling pretty positive these days. I like that I have cut down on some things to reduce drama, but I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, just because there are people who would like to make cool things a pain.

Should I go back to doing more rock photography?

[ForrestBlack]

Well, in my opinion, probably not. I mean, on the one hand, it's fun and interesting and entertaining if/when people get to see what you have created, but on the otherhand, a crappy experience with a band or their management or their label, well, it can really ruin your otherwise positive feelings about the music they make. There are very few independent photographers left that shoot rock stuff anymore. I don't like the terms the management tend to demand (all rights, no photographer credit, all of your original film, etc.) I mean, what's the artistic point then, right? And bands that don't have that level of representation always play a million games to get more usage out of your work than I think is reasonable or fair and they are pissy at you for the rest of your life if you don't give in on whatever they want. Why would you want to subject yourself to that? So some magazine can hold your shots for a year and a half 'under consideration' so you don't send it to their competition while they run the crap promo photos the label paid some unnamed photographer a gob of cash for? You know how many bands have told us we shot the best stuff of them ever, but when it comes time to get the posters and artwork shot, some unnamed bozo gets the job because they are working for the money not the art.

[Caligula]

It's a tricky one. Is there more headache than fun on the average rock photo-shoot? If not, then I'd certainly at least think about keeping a finger or two in that pie. From a rather different perspective, when I'm trying to put a book or somesuch together, I normally have an illustration budget which wouldn't cover the cigarette usage in an average photo-shoot. For this reason I often use standard promo shots because the copyright's cool and that's all I can honestly pay for. Increasingly, however, artists will try and keep control of all of their imagery, and I've seen some bizarre contracts limiting the usage of photos of certain bands. If your stuff isn't tied up in that sort of contract, perhaps that's an 'in'. Get yourself known as the person to pose for, and they'll start coming to you, and in my - admittedly largely ignorant - opinion you're not that far off.

Also, your work can have several applications. You ever thought about a book project in some shape or form? Between yourself and Master Black you certainly have the skills, the name, and if you've also got the illustrative material without having to pay exorbitant rights fees, then it becomes a very valid proposition. Just a thought...

[Amelia G]

It's a tricky one. Is there more headache than fun on the average rock photo-shoot? If not, then I'd certainly at least think about keeping a finger or two in that pie. From a rather different perspective, when I'm trying to put a book or somesuch together, I normally have an illustration budget which wouldn't cover the cigarette usage in an average photo-shoot. For this reason I often use standard promo shots because the copyright's cool and that's all I can honestly pay for. Increasingly, however, artists will try and keep control of all of their imagery, and I've seen some bizarre contracts limiting the usage of photos of certain bands. If your stuff isn't tied up in that sort of contract, perhaps that's an 'in'. Get yourself known as the person to pose for, and they'll start coming to you, and in my - admittedly largely ignorant - opinion you're not that far off.

Also, your work can have several applications. You ever thought about a book project in some shape or form? Between yourself and Master Black you certainly have the skills, the name, and if you've also got the illustrative material without having to pay exorbitant rights fees, then it becomes a very valid proposition. Just a thought...

In recent years, I have found that the headache quotient seems to have increased. I also used to think if we hooked good bands up early in their careers, then they would do us a good turn when they did well. Didn't really work out that way over time though. Bands still come to us pretty often and there is never a week when I am not hit up by multiple publicists, but I generally pass on those sorts of shoots these days because it has not always been a wholly happy experience.

We do own ALL of our work. We never sign stuff away. Well, we did shoot a couple of portraits for Playboy which they wanted all rights on and we let them have 'em. But these were not shots we were all that sad to part with. Playboy might be interested in the guys who run the travel agency or whatever for Lifestyles, but that was one of the rare occasions we have shot something just because it was a job.

We would certainly have the rights and the body of work to do a few dozen book projects without having to shoot a single new photo ever. We have had a number of near-misses to do photo books, but nothing we went with yet. We could do collections of the best of our rock photos, our couples portraits, erotic female nudes, body modification, or any number of subculture angles. I consider a lot of our photographic work activism for a certain aesthetic.

The last book contract we skipped they had a clause which said they could use any of the photos as advertising stock art and split the revenue with us. If I wanted to sell stuff willy-nilly and upset people when their image showed up in do-you-know-where-your-children-are campaigns, I know what agencies to talk to. I asked the publisher if they had ever resold a single image for ad usage. They said they had not, but they did not want to remove the clause. Then they asked for drum scans of hundreds and hundreds of images for a coffee table book. Did not sound on the up-and-up.

Any publishers you would suggest for an art book? We are always open to illustration/cover art requests by the way.

[CeruleanFire]

although I understand your reluctance to shoot such work, I must say, you create beautiful art when you do. But its just my opinion, you need to do what is right for you, and dont worry about anything else. what you create is always beautiful

[BrightStar]

You and Forrest DO do the best work.

As for a recommended group, Try Here:

Get in touch with the dark acolytes of the Black Library at:
publishing@games-workshop.co.uk

[tatdownthere]

agree with CeruleanFire you do wrk witch has created a whole style. art teach who told me that most imrtant thing is that what you create is pwerful and hardest thing is making sre commrcial parts do not get in the way of your art. othr people will try to put their commercial probs in the way of your art even if you don't care baout that stuff at all.

[Mirren]

I remember when I saw this picture on their site a while back. I thought it was one of the best one of her, very nice work. Very hard for her to take a bad photo I am sure

[Amelia G]

I remember when I saw this picture on their site a while back. I thought it was one of the best one of her, very nice work. Very hard for her to take a bad photo I am sure

I've seen some pretty hideous photos of her, but none of the bad ones were taken by me and Forrest. I'm going to go cruise around the Genitorturers site, but we never gave them permission to use any of the pix from that shoot, so I hope it is just something in a similar outfit, much as I want to be distinctive. Unless you saw the pic as part of a news item saying there was a feature on them on Blue Blood? Do you remember the context?

[Mirren]

It was on their webpage, in the gallery part. There was no accompanying story. I didn't see your names on it either, this was about 4 months ago. It was that picture, the same exact one, I remember what she was wearing, especially that ring, I thought it was cool. I fancied the jacket too.

[Amelia G]

It was on their webpage, in the gallery part. There was no accompanying story.

Hmm, I didn't see it just now. Maybe they removed it. It would bum me out if they just ganked it because they don't even have a link to BlueBlood.net on their site at the moment and Gen knows what a loss we took going to bat for her on that shoot and it is not like she doesn't have my email and my number and my mailing address and my cell phone number and fax and a ton of mutual friends and acquaintances if she wanted to get in touch to discuss using something. This is exactly the kind of lack of respect and just plain using people that the music industry makes me disillusioned and discouraged with.

Did they at least have the credits still on the photo?

[corachaos]

I know there is a lot about taking the pictures that amounts to work. (..or feels like work, or is play followed by work.) Would taking the rock pictures stress you out, or make you feel as if you were compromising in some way? Would it make you feel like you were doing something that you had no real artistic control over? Would it take the passion out of what you were doing? Those are the questions I ask myself. It seems to me that it's easy to get screwed on something that is being produced to be presented publicly. But if you love what you are doing, it's worth the risk? (..and if you love what you are doing, you aren't selling out.)

...all of that said.....I think the work you do is wonderful. And you should really do more, more, more. (...but only if it doesn't cause brain damage.)

[Mirren]

It was displayed like all the rest of the gallery pictures. I swear there was more than 1 of it too, with the same clothes .I do not recall seeeing any credit to anyone as I mentioned. I edited my post to be more specific.

[Amelia G]

Mirren - the jacket is by the very cool folks at Shrine. I recommend them.

corachaos - Forrest and I like to collaborate with all our subjects, but we always maintain a certain amount of artistic control. The thing with rock photography is that artistically and aesthetically I like the subjects, but I hate hate hate the drama queen way that whole industry goes about business. The music industry is kind of built on the notion that it is okay to get people to promote a band for free and not pay them and not say thank you and not appreciate the help received in any way. And then they wonder why so many kids today would rather snarf their music for free on Kazaa. The kids are being asked to give their efforts for free, so I think they feel they should get the end product for free. Of course, there are people who contribute nothing who also want something for nothing, but that is a whole nother discussion. I do think the way music industry people are inclined to be users makes the whole thing a lot less fun than it should be. I want to create beauty and I want to create permanence and I want the things which are beautiful to me to be remembered. It is hard to keep the positives in mind when dealing with labels who will pay some incompetent $10,000 for promo photos and steal Forrest's and my work and act like we should be psyched about how much we got to hang out with the band.

[ForrestBlack]

I'd have to see it before I got all wound up about it, but yeah, running accross our stuff being used for all sorts of things it wasn't supposed to be used for can be a drag. Kinda like when we shot Diva Destruction for magazine usage, negotiated a very good deal on the grounds that it wasn't to be used for album art or merch unless we were at least asked. These were shot primarily for magazine promo, so they would have hot stuff for articles and we'd have some more cool tears. That ended up not only being released as their album cover, it was also used for their merch posters and all kinds of other stuff. Never got most of the European magazines that stuff ran in either, which was supposed to be part of the arrangement. We probably would have been cool with giving permission, but instead they just acted weird around us ever since because they knew they got away with misrepresenting their intended usage. I mean, I really love the stuff we shot with them, but working together kinda left me feeling kinda bad about the whole thing. I suppose I should be happy to have another album cover credit, but it bugs me that people would lie in order to get it.

[CPRB]

Amelia and Forrest, I think that happens with anything artistic....I dunno how many times people have asked for things to be drawn up or painted up and when the topic of rights and money came on the table I would be the only one left standing. I also can see where you are comming from about promotion having done a punk zine back in Highschool I can say that some labels were just outright cool, but they all got odd when I decided it was time to start charging for ad space sure I got freed cd's but that didn't cover th cost of paper or printing or ink and when i decide I wa actaully coing to print the zine and those cost got higher..I knew I had to stop ding the zine. as for photos I took quite a few nothing special but I found the bands themselves were alwasy kind and friendly and down to earth. Itwas the promoters and label reps who could be troublesome and difficult and underhanded. But the people often were nice..but then again at the time everything was comming outta my pocket..I am sure if I started charging for ad space and other things it would have changedI really loved doing a zine and taking photos and doing artwork and interviewing bands it was alot of fun and I learned alot of valuable lesons from some really nice people and I also learned some really good lessons from some real wankers

[Tequila Zaire]

Well a lot I wanted to touch on has already been said by others so my only suggestion would be to be VERY selective and picky about it. With so much of this style of work being done by labels wanting THEIR version of the band out in the public eye...it's be a nice treat to see a band through the eyes of others. So if you get the chance to actually do a shoot with an artist you like on YOUR creative terms...go for it. But make a rare treat of it...and make sure the artists KNOW that it's a rare treat and not something they are indulging YOU in.

Cause after all...it's really you indulging the artist with your creative eye since the end image is YOUR interpreation of them...and that's really what people want to see anyhow in this case.

[pedar]

In recent years, I have found that the headache quotient seems to have increased. I also used to think if we hooked good bands up early in their 'em. But these were not shots we were all that sad to part with. Playboy might be interested in the guys who run the travel agency or whatever for Lifestyles, but that was one of the rare occasions we have shot something just because it was a job.

We would certainly have the rights and the body of work to do a few dozen book projects without having to shoot a single new photo ever. We have had a number of near-misses to do photo books, but nothing we went with yet. We could do collections of the best of our rock photos, our couples portraits, erotic female nudes, body modification, or any number of subculture angles. I consider a lot of our photographic work activism for a certain aesthetic.

on the up-and-up.

Any publishers you would suggest for an art book? We are always open to illustration/cover art requests by the way.

If you're looking for publishers- why don't just go to your local Borders and look at their erotic photography section plus just the erotica section-- (they have both at the one in Santa Monica)--
and see what's out there..I noticed there was a '*************' book..P.

[OliX]

she looks like that girl from black eyed peas... and that's in fashion now? I think so....

improvisation... why not

she looks good.... and probably feels good 2

[OliX]

i should realy send couple girls on this forum... you should see them

[Amelia G]

If you're looking for publishers- why don't just go to your local Borders and look at their erotic photography section plus just the erotica section-- (they have both at the one in Santa Monica)--
and see what's out there..I noticed there was a '*************' book..P.

Ya know I totally went to Borders and Barnes & Noble and looked at Rizzoli stuff etc. a number a years ago. I pitched a book about activism for a new aesthetic from a Blue Blood perspective to the publisher of the book you are referring to. They told me they put out works of social significance and that girlie mag work did not fall under their definition of social significance. Don't recall the exact wording, but it was something like that which made me feel really discouraged. We were doing a lot of work for Tattoo Savage and Fetish and such at the time, so we ended up just concentrating on that.

I'm not sure how to go about picking the right publisher. Obviously that publisher could have been good. Maybe 1998 or thereabouts was before the right time for such a book, but, however good a fit they might have been for the subject matter, they weren't for me. We've gotten a few offers for book deals, but they were either not for books we would feel good about or they wanted weird rights like reselling our work to advertising or web sites.

I know how to find publishers in a niche. I don't write the best pitches in the world, but I've had a good number of things published. But I don't know how to select a publisher in this niche.

[tatdownthere]

would buy book of blueblood rock photography for sure!!!!

[BrightStar]

Ya know I totally went to Borders and Barnes & Noble and looked at Rizzoli stuff etc. a number a years ago. I pitched a book about activism for a new aesthetic from a Blue Blood perspective to the publisher of the book you are referring to. They told me they put out works of social significance and that girlie mag work did not fall under their definition of social significance. Don't recall the exact wording, but it was something like that which made me feel really discouraged.

Those Bastards! Your work is awesome, and of great social signifcance!

[Nudemuse]

I read this and have been thinking about it a bit. Given how much you actually enjoy doing rock photography I think (at least if it was me) the biggest thing to weigh would be my own bullshit quotient. How much are you willing to put up with to do something you love to do?

That's one of those things I think about quite a bit. In my writing I've learned I don't put up with a lot of bullshit or being jerked around for no reason. It's not enough to make me stop but there are days some of the bullshit does give me pause.

If you can cut through it all and do what you love I say go for it.

[pedar]

Ya know I totally went to Borders and Barnes & Noble and looked at Rizzoli stuff etc. a number a years ago. I pitched a book about activism for a new aesthetic from a Blue Blood perspective to the publisher of the book you are referring to. They told me they put out works of social significance and that girlie mag work did not fall under their definition of social significance. Don't recall the exact wording, but it was something like that which made me feel really discouraged. We were doing a lot of work for Tattoo Savage and Fetish and such at the time, so we ended up just concentrating on that.

I'm not sure how to go about picking the right publisher. Obviously that publisher could have been good. Maybe 1998 or thereabouts was before the right time for such a book, but, however good a fit they might have been for the subject matter, they weren't for me. We've gotten a few offers for book deals, but they were either not for books we would feel good about or they wanted weird rights like reselling our work to advertising or web sites.

I know how to find publishers in a niche. I don't write the best pitches in the world, but I've had a good number of things published. But I don't know how to select a publisher in this niche.

What abt the whole Amok crowd or the (maybe they are the same) people who put out RESearch Magazine (I still see it around)? You could sign up for 'Artscene's events and go to the parties and gallery openings and schmooze around and see who's interested..
Interesting -btw-that the book title I mentioned got the **** treatment..I didn't know they were your competitors -they get a lot of press in the local media thought like 'City Beat' or whatever it is..
P.

[Amelia G]

Thanks for the Artscene suggestion. Link? I think a shot of ours of Blue Blood Fetus de Milo may have run in a RESearch book in an interview with her about her art. I should check that out. Both good ideas.

Mostly we star out racial hate epithets and spammers. We also have a policy against promoting people who are anticommunity and would not allow promo to take place in their venues.

I'm not a big believer in competition. I'm trying to beat my own high score.

[Caligula]

I'm not sure if Re/Search might be a little left field for this project, plus while the books are okay visually, for something like this you might be safer with someone you're confidant would do a good job in the design and printing departments.

You're totally right about avoiding anything that looks slightly odd in a publishing contract. I've been shafted in several interesting ways (and not in a good way) by sundry sneaky clauses hidden in the small print. I wouldn't recommend learning the hard way - it can work out pretty expensive in terms of cash, stress and impotent rage.

If you want any specific pointers, warnings, contacts etc then PM me, as some of this information is better out of the public domain (and will bore anyone not interested in the evils of the publishing world fucking rigid). Also, I just might have some work for you...

[Amelia G]

I'm not sure if Re/Search might be a little left field for this project, plus while the books are okay visually, for something like this you might be safer with someone you're confidant would do a good job in the design and printing departments.

You're totally right about avoiding anything that looks slightly odd in a publishing contract. I've been shafted in several interesting ways (and not in a good way) by sundry sneaky clauses hidden in the small print. I wouldn't recommend learning the hard way - it can work out pretty expensive in terms of cash, stress and impotent rage.

If you want any specific pointers, warnings, contacts etc then PM me, as some of this information is better out of the public domain (and will bore anyone not interested in the evils of the publishing world fucking rigid). Also, I just might have some work for you...

Good point on the repro quality issue and all. Production values do matter to me.

Well put, as far as the problematic aspects. I definitely can't afford any more impotent rage right now.

I've got to drag my ass off the computer long enough to go buy a cam for Szandora to play with, but I'll be back.

[ForrestBlack]

That is super awesome of you to offer to help us out with Caligula. I really really appreciate it. Yeah, sometimes I think about the fact that if we were not so good at reading the fine print, we'd have a couple books out already. But, on the otherhand, getting screwed isn't any good either. We just feel responsible for our images and how they are used and stuff. That's usually been a lot of the problem (in some cases anyway.) I do agree that although I love a lot of the REsearch stuff, I'm not so sure it would be the right vibe. I totally support projects that they do, obviously, but I'm not sure it's a good fit for us. I'm not sure how Amelia feels about that though, it's just my opinion.

[pedar]

Thanks for the Artscene suggestion. Link? I think a shot of ours of Blue Blood Fetus de Milo may have run in a RESearch book in an interview with her about her art. I should check that out. Both good ideas.

Mostly we star out racial hate epithets and spammers. We also have a policy against promoting people who are anticommunity and would not allow promo to take place in their venues.

I'm not a big believer in competition. I'm trying to beat my own high score.

Hi- try http://artscenecal.com and follow the links to get on their schedule..
also you might be interested to know that The Pandemonium Collective is calling for exhibits (which include photography) for a big Halloween Bash at a gallery in Santa Monica--- I think the link is submit@thepandemoniumcollective.org-
If nothing else -another event to schmooze at..I used to be know-tangetally- some folks tied into with some alternative publishers..people like SA Griffin, Mike Mollett, the Mondo Video gang- and there was Pleasant Gamine (sp?) --
Also curious what you mean when you say 'activism for a new aesthetic'--
P.

[memorydream]

Well, good luck on the photography biz. It seems a really hard thing to me to do well at regardless of personal integrity. But, if you don't have that, what do you have?

[HempKnight]

Have you considered using 2.13.61 Publications? I can't think of a more solid person than Henry and you'd be in good company with the likes of Ross Halfin, Nick Cave, Bill Hicks, Lydia Lunch... etc....

I think it would be an avenue to look into and can't see getting fucked over there. Never have heard a bad word about Henry or his company... he's one helluva a guy, just ask Nudemuse.. I had Henry sign and send her a copy of Broken Summers for XXXmas....no matter what I would buy any book you guys put out.

Just a thought.

[Histrionica]

I would buy your book too.

And i love Nick Cave and Lydia Lunch.



~Histrionica~

[CPRB]

Yeah Deffinetly i would but a book if it came out...so get to it!

[mollycase]

I would so love to see another Blue Blood book come out. With the cultural impact you have had, you two are terribly overdue to have a nice coffee table book published.